Is there an argument for Kopitar to be the 3rd best player of his generation behind Crosby/Ovechkin?

[Raccoon Jesus]

That was my point though, Datsyuk lost out to peak OV. To be considered the most valuable player outside of the Big 3 during that time was something special, it was the second season in a row that Datsyuk won the Selke and finished top 5 in scoring as well. He had repeated success. Kopitar finished 3rd in voting by getting a handful more 4th place votes than claude giroux. He finished 9th in scoring. The media was all over the place that year, but Kopitar was never a front runner during a very weak year. If Edmonton had made the playoffs and wasn't a dumpster fire, McDavid probably should have won.

screeeeeeech go the goalposts

embarassing

 

[BillyOcean]

I was told quite a long time ago that Claude Giroux had usurped Crosby for the best player in the world.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

So for what healthy and prime for...4 of 19 seasons?

How am I rewriting history? The stats are public information. Malkin is injured more than he has ever been healthy. Consistency and reliability should be factored into their careers when comparing the two.

You do realize Kopitar has scored more points than Malkin since the 2012-2013 lockout right? Mind you while being a Selke caliber player still to this day.

Yes, there are 4 season where you can point to Malkin being the best player in the world. Losing out to two Harts to peak OV and even winning one over peak OV. When healthy, he is an MVP of this league and can do it in the playoffs too. We can't point to a single season where Kopitar has shown that kind of ability, so thats why its ridiculous.

 

[dgibb10]

What?!?

Go look at 2018. He should have had a Hart. He definitely had heavy consideration.

The 2018 Selke was a "well, we can give Kopitar the Selke so let's give someone else the Hart."

Ignorance on what Kopitar has done all over this thread, it's maddening. Like I'm fine if someone else has players higher--there are good arguments!--but so many of them seem based on completely overlooking defense, deployment, health, consistency, or, like in this case, just facts.

"Points don't matter it's about how kopitar tilts the ice"

meanwhile

wow kopitar got 90 points? GIVE HIM THE HART NOW

Kopitar had no business winning the hart that year. In fact, he arguably wasn't even better than malkin that year.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

screeeeeeech go the goalposts

embarassing

What goal posts? Kopitar has never put together a season that makes you feel like he might be the best player in the world. Hall, McDavid, Mackinnon etc put together much better seasons. He finished over McDavid for the Hart due to split voting in a weak year where the oilers didn't make the playoffs, but you look pretty silly trying to argue he had a better season than him.

 

[The Pale King]

Crosby
Ovi
Price
Malkin
Keith
Thornton
Karlsson
Kane


Are all ahead IMO.
Then theres Perry, Doughty, Sedins, MSL, Bergeron, Datsyuk, Chara, Toews Weber...

I think theres just too many names. 2000-2020 was a great time to be a hockey fan.

I know I'm not the only Kings fan who's lost countless hours of sleep wondering how many extra Cups the Kings would have won with Corey friggin' Perry instead of Anze Kopitar.

I mean I guess a Brown-Carter-Perry line would be fun but outside of that... not super fair to Perry to throw his name into the mix here at all.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Malkin played his whole career with Sidney Crosby. Not necessarily always on the same line, but the same PP and occasionally on the same line. Name any player that Kopitar played with that even came close to Crosby. Would Malkin have turned Dustin Brown into a star player on the Kings?

Malkin's numbers were suppressed playing in Pittsburgh if anything. His ppg was much higher with Crosby out of the lineup than with.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I know I'm not the only Kings fan who's lost countless hours of sleep wondering how many extra Cups the Kings would have won with Corey friggin' Perry instead of Anze Kopitar.

I mean I guess a Brown-Carter-Perry line would be fun but outside of that... not super fair to Perry to throw his name into the mix here at all.

That actually would have been a fun line. Two bruisers that like to go to the dirty areas to get goals and have a feistiness about them. I just wish Kopitar had more time with a sniper like Gaborik. I think there would have been potential for Kopitar to have reached those crazy heights that Kopitar pundits in this thread believe Kopitar has the ability to hit. They were money together.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

I'm guessing that you are comparing peak Malkin years here for the most part against his overall resume which includes these last couple decling years?

Malkin has an extremely strong case for 3rd best player but this post is misguided to say the least as it lacks context.



Do you really want to go down this road and apply the same views on Ovi?

Everyone saw that Detroit focused on Crosby during the Pens first 2 SC finals runs and people actually watch the games as well when Malkin in his last couple of really good seasons was giving much better offensive zone starts to succeed.



Once again numbers with zero context.

As for the. OP, I love Kopitar and 2 way forwards in general and maybe Kopitar has a small case for 4 th with Kane but the Big are out of reach.

No it was well documented even in their primes. Malkin's numbers were much higher with Crosby out.

 

[dabeechman]

Yes, there are 4 season where you can point to Malkin being the best player in the world. Losing out to two Harts to peak OV and even winning one over peak OV. When healthy, he is an MVP of this league and can do it in the playoffs too. We can't point to a single season where Kopitar has shown that kind of ability, so thats why its ridiculous.

The difference between us is that you value offense above all else. I choose to view players for how they play on both ends of the ice.

I have already said that Malkin is the better offensive player. My earlier question was, does the offensive disparity between the two players outweigh the superior defensive play of Kopitar?

Personally, no. I think the defensive gap is much larger than the offensive gap. Again, you have to consider that Kopitar has outscored Malkin over the past 12 years, is more durable, and can play both ends of the ice and the PK.

It isn't "ridiculous".

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

The difference between us is that you value offense above all else. I choose to view players for how they play on both ends of the ice.

I have already said that Malkin is the better offensive player. My earlier question was, does the offensive disparity between the two players outweigh the superior defensive play of Kopitar?

Personally, no. I think the defensive gap is much larger than the offensive gap. Again, you have to consider that Kopitar has outscored Malkin over the past 12 years, is more durable, and can play both ends of the ice and the PK.

It isn't "ridiculous".

It is obviously superior. Kopitar isn't doing enough on the defensive end to make up for that difference in skill offensively. Malkin was a game breaking offensive talent. He can score against any type of defensive matchup, and you simply couldn't shut him down, just limit him. He is an MVP of this league and can win you a playoff series on his own. Kopitar just can't impact the game in a way that would shift a playoff series or a game on his own. Only a select few players that are very special can. Malkin is one of those rare, very special players. It just isn't close. I do respect your opinion though.

 

[The Pale King]

Yes, there are 4 season where you can point to Malkin being the best player in the world. Losing out to two Harts to peak OV and even winning one over peak OV. When healthy, he is an MVP of this league and can do it in the playoffs too. We can't point to a single season where Kopitar has shown that kind of ability, so thats why its ridiculous.

Kopitar led the playoffs in scoring twice. He's had two Smythe worthy playoff runs.

Look if you'd rather have Taylor Hall, that's fine man. It's pretty easy to sort point totals in descending order and ignore everything else. Heck, it got Phil Housley into the HHOF.

 

[dgibb10]

The difference between us is that you value offense above all else. I choose to view players for how they play on both ends of the ice.

I have already said that Malkin is the better offensive player. My earlier question was, does the offensive disparity between the two players outweigh the superior defensive play of Kopitar?

Personally, no. I think the defensive gap is much larger than the offensive gap. Again, you have to consider that Kopitar has outscored Malkin over the past 12 years, is more durable, and can play both ends of the ice and the PK.

It isn't "ridiculous".

Yes, the offensive gap significantly outweighs the defensive gap (which in terms of impact actually isn't as big as you'd think).

Kopitar is a good PK guy, but isn't anything special or gamebreaking in that area that you can't find/replicate using random bottom 6ers (as you can see by the fact that Pittsburgh has had a better PK than LAK over their respective tenures)

 

[The Pale King]

It is obviously superior. Kopitar isn't doing enough on the defensive end to make up for that difference in skill offensively. Malkin was a game breaking offensive talent. He can score against any type of defensive matchup, and you simply couldn't shut him down, just limit him. He is an MVP of this league and can win you a playoff series on his own. Kopitar just can't impact the game in a way that would shift a playoff series or a game on his own. Only a select few players that are very special can. Malkin is one of those rare, very special players. It just isn't close. I do respect your opinion though.

This is such a reach here. Malkin is much more likely to flop in front of the officials and draw a penalty, sure, I'll give you that.

It's okay to admit you don't watch Kings games. I wouldn't watch a lot of Penguins games if they started at 10 pm here either.

 

[Mrb1p]

I know I'm not the only Kings fan who's lost countless hours of sleep wondering how many extra Cups the Kings would have won with Corey friggin' Perry instead of Anze Kopitar.

I mean I guess a Brown-Carter-Perry line would be fun but outside of that... not super fair to Perry to throw his name into the mix here at all.

he has a hart, rocket, cup, 450 goals, 1400 games. Like 5 cups finals too. Hes in the conversation. Doesnt mean hes winning.

 

[Toby91ca]

The difference between us is that you value offense above all else. I choose to view players for how they play on both ends of the ice.

I understand that point of view, but I think a lot of people have over rotated on it. Lots felt the great two-way players were overlooked, but now I think two-way play is being overrated a bit. Feels weird to say, but I think it's reality a bit. It just seems too easy to pump a guy up these days by suggesting he's way better at defense than some other player and that offsets any of the greater offense the other player brings to the table.

I don't think Malkin blows Kopitar out of the water, but I certainly think it should be pretty clear that he's the higher ranked player all-time. Malkin probably isn't ranked as high as he should be because of Crosby as well

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I understand that point of view, but I think a lot of people have over rotated on it. Lots felt the great two-way players were overlooked, but now I think two-way play is being overrated a bit. Feels weird to say, but I think it's reality a bit. It just seems too easy to pump a guy up these days by suggesting he's way better at defense than some other player and that offsets any of the greater offense the other player brings to the table.

I don't think Malkin blows Kopitar out of the water, but I certainly think it should be pretty clear that he's the higher ranked player all-time. Malkin probably isn't ranked as high as he should be because of Crosby as well

I think that's fair and yet even if I agree--the thread title is "is there an argument for Kopitar" and I think there is a good one that's based on longevity, consistency, healthy, deployment, and two-way results. I think many of the mentioned names sure had times when they burned brighter--but when we're talking about greatness in careers, longevity matters a lot, and the performance cap is smaller than is mentioned because of those things being overlooked. And even then, when we talk about Kopitar's two-way play--it's not just 'this guy plays defense so give him a bump'--the guy was mr everything for the Kings regularly leading them in scoring by 20-30 points even while getting some of the hardest starts, minutes and competition in the league--he wasn't just defending, he was starting in the defensive zone, advancing the puck to score, and turning the opposing 100 pt scorer into a 40 point puddle. It's not just "yeah he scores 70 but he pks". I think it's being desperately undersold.

Hell we have a guy on this page suggesting Kopitar was never even in the Hart conversation yet he was a finalist, if you want to talk about overlooked. Kopitar's biggest problems in his career were being Slovenian and in LA his whole career.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I know that Kopitar's 7th place finish in scoring (in 2018) doesn't jump out, but we need to consider his role on the Kings.

Here's a summary of some of the other top forwards:

Kopitar has, by a wide margin, the lowest percentage of offensive zone starts (at 5v5). He's the only player on this list under 50%. Malkin is over 70%! Despite being deployed in defensive situations much more than any of his peers, he has the 2nd lowest personal GAA of any player on this list. (Despite Kopitar having unfavourable deployment, and really good defensive results, he still managed to outscore Malkin at 5v5).

Plus, Kopitar singlehandedly played as much on the PK as Malkin, Kucherov, Kane, Stamkos, MacKinnon, Ovechkin, Crosby, Hall and Giroux combined. And it's not like he got lots of ice time, but played poorly. He had one of the lowest GAA's in the entire league on the PK.

It's easy to dismiss defensive play as something that's vague and unmeasurable. But there's hard data that backs up the notion that Kopitar's value goes beyond traditional scoring stats.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Kopitar led the playoffs in scoring twice. He's had two Smythe worthy playoff runs.

Look if you'd rather have Taylor Hall, that's fine man. It's pretty easy to sort point totals in descending order and ignore everything else. Heck, it got Phil Housley into the HHOF.

But he didn't. The fact that he lost out a smythe to Justin Williams tells you everything you need to know. He isn't going to be the offensive driver that an elite talent like Malkin can be.

This is such a reach here. Malkin is much more likely to flop in front of the officials and draw a penalty, sure, I'll give you that.

It's okay to admit you don't watch Kings games. I wouldn't watch a lot of Penguins games if they started at 10 pm here either.

I am actually a blues fan, we have a big penguins base here though. I love Kopitar, I think he is easily in a good mix of players that are the best from his generation, but he doesn't hold a candle to Malkin. Malkin is a very rare, special talent. It is ridiculous to compare the two.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I think that's fair and yet even if I agree--the thread title is "is there an argument for Kopitar" and I think there is a good one that's based on longevity, consistency, healthy, deployment, and two-way results. I think many of the mentioned names sure had times when they burned brighter--but when we're talking about greatness in careers, longevity matters a lot, and the performance cap is smaller than is mentioned because of those things being overlooked. And even then, when we talk about Kopitar's two-way play--it's not just 'this guy plays defense so give him a bump'--the guy was mr everything for the Kings regularly leading them in scoring by 20-30 points even while getting some of the hardest starts, minutes and competition in the league--he wasn't just defending, he was starting in the defensive zone, advancing the puck to score, and turning the opposing 100 pt scorer into a 40 point puddle. It's not just "yeah he scores 70 but he pks". I think it's being desperately undersold.

Hell we have a guy on this page suggesting Kopitar was never even in the Hart conversation yet he was a finalist, if you want to talk about overlooked. Kopitar's biggest problems in his career were being Slovenian and in LA his whole career.

Come on man. Kopitar's biggest problem's for number 3 of his generation is Crosby, OV, and Malkin. It was considered "The Big 3" for a reason during that era. We can debate him 4th if you all want, but the argument over Malkin is just beyond ridiculous and no, there isn't an argument for him over Malkin.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

But he didn't. The fact that he lost out a smythe to Justin Williams tells you everything you need to know. He isn't going to be the offensive driver that an elite talent like Malkin can be.

I am actually a blues fan, we have a big penguins base here though. I love Kopitar, I think he is easily in a good mix of players that are the best from his generation, but he doesn't hold a candle to Malkin. Malkin is a very rare, special talent. It is ridiculous to compare the two.

Yes, it emphasizes that Kings players have largely had their legacies overlooked because of hardware. That's affected Kopitar, Doughty, and Quick. Williams winning a Conn Smythe was a narrative trophy, no one watching that run would have had him OVER Kopitar.

Frankly that one was Doughty's to lose so the point is kind of moot there but saying he isn't the offensive driver? Give your head a shake. Like, Im all for civil disagreement on reasonable arguments but it's impossible to argue with people who are clearly completely out to lunch on a player because there's no reasonable baseline logic to have a fair discussion.

Come on man. Kopitar's biggest problem's for number 3 of his generation is Crosby, OV, and Malkin. It was considered "The Big 3" for a reason during that era. We can debate him 4th if you all want, but the argument over Malkin is just beyond ridiculous and no, there isn't an argument for him over Malkin.

Again yes there is a reasonable argument and its simply one post above yours, and it's based heavily in numbers. Even if I were to agree with you on the grounds others have presented -- your argument is all on vibes alone and fallacies all over the page...and most of the people with similar bullhonkey "Malkin AINEC" takes have equally shaky arguments, anyone who is using facts and reason will at least be able to admit they're close. You've been wrong repeatedly and just keep doubling down.

And again also I don't need anyone to admit Kopitar is better, you're entitled to the Malkin is better opinion, but saying an argument doesn't even exist is silly. It exists, even if you don't like some parts and choose to ignore others.

 

[dgibb10]

I know that Kopitar's 7th place finish in scoring (in 2018) doesn't jump out, but we need to consider his role on the Kings.

Here's a summary of some of the other top forwards:

View attachment 1022648

Kopitar has, by a wide margin, the lowest percentage of offensive zone starts (at 5v5). He's the only player on this list under 50%. Malkin is over 70%! Despite being deployed in defensive situations much more than any of his peers, he has the 2nd lowest personal GAA of any player on this list. (Despite Kopitar having unfavourable deployment, and really good defensive results, he still managed to outscore Malkin at 5v5).

Plus, Kopitar singlehandedly played as much on the PK as Malkin, Kucherov, Kane, Stamkos, MacKinnon, Ovechkin, Crosby, Hall and Giroux combined. And it's not like he got lots of ice time, but played poorly. He had one of the lowest GAA's in the entire league on the PK.

It's easy to dismiss defensive play as something that's vague and unmeasurable. But there's hard data that backs up the notion that Kopitar's value goes beyond traditional scoring stats.

Wow so he really should have finished behind Giroux in the hart voting that year good to know.

Showing team GAA while he's on the ice as evidence of his defense. I'm sure his teams offense while he was on the ice lined up as well.

Wait, it was significantly lower than basically all of those players. Interesting.



(also, real GAA has a lot to do with goalies, and Quick/Kuemper were the best goalie duo in the league that year, ESPECIALLY on the PK).


In fact, most metrics use real GF for offense (since individual players have much more control over that, eg being elite snipers), and xGA for defensive metrics (since you can't control the goaltending you get behind you).


Going into his PK metrics, getting 0.924 sv on the PK from your goalies will do that. That's credit that belongs to, again Quick and Kuemper, not kopitar. Hence when quick had a down year the next year, Kopitar (despite giving a virtually identical amount of chances up on the PK), had those PK goal differential against TRIPLE.


But hey, Kopitar has really done a lot for the kings PK over the years compared to Malkin, which is why, checks notes, Pittsburghs PK has outperformed LAs over their time in the league together. Boy does the PK impact of stars get constantly overrated


Malkin got approx 250 ozone starts. Kopitar got approx 220. Don't use %s to try and paint malkin getting 1 shift starting in the ozone every 3 games as some massive boon to his point production

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Yes, it emphasizes that Kings players have largely had their legacies overlooked because of hardware. That's affected Kopitar, Doughty, and Quick. Williams winning a Conn Smythe was a narrative trophy, no one watching that run would have had him OVER Kopitar.

What does this mean? He got outplayed by Williams by such a large amount that the voters couldn't even find a narrative for Kopitar.

Frankly that one was Doughty's to lose so the point is kind of moot there but saying he isn't the offensive driver? Give your head a shake. Like, Im all for civil disagreement on reasonable arguments but it's impossible to argue with people who are clearly completely out to lunch on a player because there's no reasonable baseline logic to have a fair discussion.

Are you even trying to argue in good faith? I said he wasn't the kind of offensive driver that Malkin is, and its not even close. That doesn't mean that he wasn't an offensive driver on his team. You are just looking for reasons to poke holes in an argument you can't find any.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

He got outplayed by Williams by such a large amount that the voters couldn't even find a narrative for Kopitar.

Are you even trying to argue in good faith?

Oh, the irony.

Yeah I'm done here.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Oh, the irony.

Yeah I'm done here.

Bye.