Is there an argument for Kopitar to be the 3rd best player of his generation behind Crosby/Ovechkin?

[Ezpz]

But the question wasn't who had the most points in that window of time.

The question was who was the best players in that window, and there's no credible argument that Giroux is on the same level as Anze Kopitar.

Maybe not for career but for that span I am not really seeing a credible argument that puts Kopitar over Giroux. There were several years Giroux was a top 2 center in the league, I don't think Kopitar ever ventured further than 5th. Kopitar is the new Sundin. Was never the best player in the league but played at a consistent level for a long time and passed most of his contemporaries in career numbers. Even in playoff numbers there is literally zero edge for Kopitar despite playing on more contenders than Giroux.

Giroux wasn't some slouch defensively before his skating dropped either. Without injuries Giroux's offensive numbers likely gap Kopitars. Even with Giroux's surgeries affecting his speed, he still is dead even in points per game over their careers. Not to mention the fact that Giroux played behind Carter and Richards at the very start of his career without PP time which skews the numbers he would have put up, evidenced by his 2010 playoff run.

I think Giroux has the top 2 or 3 seasons between the two of them.

These honestly remind me of the arguments for Toews > Malkin which were ridiculous as hell. At least Kopitar is comparable but there's not some mega gap between him and Giroux. Intangibles do not count for twice as much as tangibles.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Just another incredibly important part of the game that Malkin and Kane are significantly better at!

That was less to discount the power play and more to discuss deployment, durability, and minutes, especially defensively and on the PK, which is getting discounted nearly entirely in favor of raw counting stats.

But too many people are frothing at the mouth at the mere idea that some other things that are also important partially account for the raw points gap to have an actual conversation, so have fun.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

No but he has a decent argument for 5th

 

[GlitchMarner]

Not according to Demidov.

 

[Rodgerwilco]

Yeah, but Kopitar is the only one of the 4 mentioned above to win the Messier award. That's surely got to count for something, no?

No, it doesn’t count for anything lol. I hope you were being sarcastic.

 

[Rodgerwilco]

What is it that I’m missing that Kopitar is being discussed above Bergeron? Admittedly I never watched a ton of LA games, but it seems to me like Bergeron is just a better version of Kopitar…

 

[Nadal On Clay]

FWIW--at even strength the gap is only 833 to 805, or a 56 pt player to a 45 pt player. So the difference can largely be explained by offensive team/PP scoring and deployment.




Yeah vs. the other two Kopitar played bonkers minutes, arguably the hardest of any forward in the NHL, while being Mr. Everything for the Kings, being relied on for the offense too. He regularly outscored his teammates by 20-30 points while playing 200 ft selke level hockey. I'ts not easy to lead the league in forward ice time, and most often the players doing it aren't PK/defensive players, they're getting relatively 'easy' deployment on the PP. Kopitar did it all and rarely missed a game and even did it for deep palyoff runs back to back to back.

It will depend on what you're asking--who is more raw talented (Kane and Malkin) vs. your needs weighted vs. how much you value consistency and availability. Kopitar will go down as one of the steadiest, most reliable players in NHL history. Malkins peaks were great, but what a roller coaster of consistency and availability. Kane, absolutely clutch, gives heart attacks as an opponent. I have to be a homer and take Kopitar because neither of those guys could replace what he's done in LA on both sides of the puck. I think there's a case for him as 3rd if you value the above.

The best ability is availability and I think this thread is largely overlooking the value of minutes/games played and role.

That’s a great point of view. If we’re only looking at value provided to a team, I’d take Kopitar 3rd.

It doesn’t mean he is necessarily a better player, but what he brought to the Kings year-in, year out outmatches the high peaks, lower valleys of the other 2, on a value standpoint.

If you ignore games missed (as they don’t bring in any value), Kopitar scores at a 67 pts per season rate.

Malkin - 70
Kane - 75

That’s not a big difference. When you add in the fact Kopitar is a much better defensive player, he definitely has a case.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

What is it that I’m missing that Kopitar is being discussed above Bergeron? Admittedly I never watched a ton of LA games, but it seems to me like Bergeron is just a better version of Kopitar…

Bergeron played with much better linemates his whole career, on much better teams, on an O6 team in the eastern time zone.

He was a bit better defensively, but was worse offensively. Swap these 2 players situations and the result would be clear.

 

[bland]

Doughty has always been the better player between the two, so no.

 

[Video Nasty]

No, but he’s making 4th place a much more interesting discussion that I ever imagined he would.

 

[Bruce Granville]

Maybe not the 3rd best, but the 2nd valuable.

 

[tfwnogf]

I'd put him at 5. Malkin and Kane's resumes are too strong. But Kopitar is a beast. I remember watching him with a buddy in the playoffs early 2010s he was just such a force we would look at each other and laugh like "goddamn, everytime this dude is on the ice he carries play so well he makes it look easy."

 

[Rodgerwilco]

Bergeron played with much better linemates his whole career, on much better teams, on an O6 team in the eastern time zone.

He was a bit better defensively, but was worse offensively. Swap these 2 players situations and the result would be clear.

Fair points.

 

[izlez]

Just skimming this thread, do defenseman not exist?

 

[Channelcat]

Just skimming this thread, do defenseman not exist?

Not much love for Karlsson here

 

[MXD]

Just skimming this thread, do defenseman not exist?

I was just about to post that.

 

[Il Stugotz]

How do defensemen factor in?
Like if your team gets to choose between adding 2014 Duncan Keith or 2014 Kopitar, they’d decide based on their current lineup because they both fill a vital need. I don’t know how you’d say that one is a “better hockey player” than the other

 

[1989]

Just skimming this thread, do defenseman not exist?

Goalies died back in 2008 but Big Hockey doesn't want you to know!

 

[kings11]

I have just never seen a season like this out of Kopitar. 11-12 Malkin was on pace for ~55 goals, 120 points. That's a large gap from the others in the top 10.

View attachment 1019937

No idea why NHL.com updates the team icons for past seasons. Stamkos on the Preds was electric.

Granted, if you put Malkin in the Kings system you also won’t see those stats..
LA is probably the only franchise in the NHL that can slash anyone’s offensive potential by 25%

 

[egelband]

As we know, there is a considerable gap between Crosby/Ovechkin and the 3rd player of their generation, which is more commonly argued to be either Malkin or Kane. I feel like a name that often gets forgotten in these discussions is Kopitar.

Kopitar entered the league at the same time as Malkin in 2006-2007, one year before Kane. Here are some of his notable accomplishments.

- Led the Kings in scoring 15 times, which would be good for 3rd place all-time I believe behind only Gretzky (20) and Howe (17) for the number of times leading his team in scoring.
- Has 2 Playoff scoring titles, which is as many as Malkin and one more than Kane.
- Won 2 Selke trophies (Finished top 10, 12 times)
- Has accumulated 16 60+ pts seasons, good for top 10 all time behind only Howe, Gretzky, Ovechkin, Jagr, Francis, Crosby, Sakic, Messier and Dionne. He would probably be only trailing Gretzky, Howe, Ovechkin and Crosby if not for the shortened seasons (2013 lockout, COVID).
- Has built an impressive longevity resume and seems to be aging better than both Malkin and Kane.

His offensive peak might not be as good as Malkin's and Kane's, but he is worlds ahead on the defensive side of the ice, played on a defensive oriented system for most of his career and did not play with any other star teammate on offense (at least for most of his career). Is it enough to be considered the 3rd best player of the 2005 lockout generation ahead of Malkin and Kane? If not currently, can he eventually get there?

I was expecting to scoff at this but you make a lot of very good points. Also durability and defense are not given enough weight in general. I wish we had better metrics for non-offense skills and talents.

 

[Peat]

Imo best player should be measured by ability in prime with longevity as a tie breaker.

I am open to the idea Kopitar's two-way dominance was underappreciated and should be considered far more of a factor compared to raw points. These things usually come down to numbers because few people really watched enough of everyone and we can't really measure two-way hockey that well, but I wish we could.

That said... prime Malkin was such a nasty beast that I'd really struggle with putting anyone in front of him.

edit: If the thread was better career and not better player, I'd be listening on the longevity front.

 

[Osprey]

I remember his rookie year, when people here on HF were calling him and Malkin "Frankenrookies." Now, they're both "Frankengeezers."

 

[Ghost of Murph]

Not even close. Bergeron is his closest comp and Bergeron was better. Two-way players such as Kopitar and Bergeron are way more than their scoring stats. Kopitar is one of my favorite players, but Bergeron is the best two-way center since I started watching hockey in the early 70's. Even though I don't think Kopitar is 3rd best of his generation, glad to see him getting some love.

 

[UED]

That’s a great point of view. If we’re only looking at value provided to a team, I’d take Kopitar 3rd.

It doesn’t mean he is necessarily a better player, but what he brought to the Kings year-in, year out outmatches the high peaks, lower valleys of the other 2, on a value standpoint.

If you ignore games missed (as they don’t bring in any value), Kopitar scores at a 67 pts per season rate.

Malkin - 70
Kane - 75

That’s not a big difference. When you add in the fact Kopitar is a much better defensive player, he definitely has a case.

It's not an "add in the fact" lol. Why do people hate defense so much. It's not an added freebie that some players have and some don't, it's a whole half of the game!! You have to play defense 50% of the time!! Someone who is good 50% of the time is EQUALLY good as someone who is good the other 50% of the time, even if it doesn't show that way on hockeydb or capfriendly(elite examples are Danault and McDonagh, they make no money and have horrible hockeydb pages but are AMAZING players who have led their trash teams to the finals before(not counting the insanely stacked Lightning)). Remove 60 points per year and Kopitar is still in the NHL as a 4th liner and PK specialist and Malkin is unknown, playing in Russia, probably retired by now.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

Probably bias on my part but I can't recall Kopitar having any "Big" moments unlike Kane and Malkin

Part of Kane's legacy will be his big moments like his SC winning goal in OT or the goal that sent Hawks to finals in 2013 (Vs Kings)

When I think of Kings cup teams Quick and Doughty are guys I immediately think of and Kopitar sorta falls in with the secondary guys like Martinez, Carter, etc when thinking of that run they had (2012-2014)