Is there an argument for Kopitar to be the 3rd best player of his generation behind Crosby/Ovechkin?

[Grifter3511]

I have never seen an argument for Kane over Malkin.

Kopitar, Kane, and Giroux can fight for #4

Yeah, but Kopitar is the only one of the 4 mentioned above to win the Messier award. That's surely got to count for something, no?

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

No

 

[SharksFan1992]

Don't get me wrong, Anze is one of the best from his generation. I'll never forget how beast he was in their 2012 Cup run.

That said, he isn't #3. You just can't put him ahead of Joe Thornton, Evgeni Malkin, Patrick Kane, Henrik Lundqvist.

 

[jfhabs]

Clearly Malkin ahead, but he has insane longevity... Kane is up there too, Stamkos and Giroux maybe in same tier as Kopitar

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Don't get me wrong, Anze is one of the best from his generation. I'll never forget how beast he was in their 2012 Cup run.

That said, he isn't #3. You just can't put him ahead of Joe Thornton, Evgeni Malkin, Patrick Kane, Henrik Lundqvist.

Is Thornton really part of that generation? He went 1OA in 1997, which seems like at least half a generation before the lockout.

 

[JackSlater]

Yeah, but Kopitar is the only one of the 4 mentioned above to win the Messier award. That's surely got to count for something, no?

Ok, I've changed my mind. Kopitar > Malkin unless he gets a Messier.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Another interesting fact : Kopitar did not play with a single 70+ pts player from 2008 to 2022.

I think some people undervalue the environment in which Kopitar played in (defensive system limiting his offensive capabilities, very shallow supporting cast during his prime, excellent two-way center who rarely cheated for offense, if ever).

(FWIW, I have him 4th behind Malkin.)

 

[mydnyte]

As we know, there is a considerable gap between Crosby/Ovechkin and the 3rd player of their generation, which is more commonly argued to be either Malkin or Kane. I feel like a name that often gets forgotten in these discussions is Kopitar.

Kopitar entered the league at the same time as Malkin in 2006-2007, one year before Kane. Here are some of his notable accomplishments.

- Led the Kings in scoring 15 times, which would be good for 3rd place all-time I believe behind only Gretzky (20) and Howe (17) for the number of times leading his team in scoring.
- Has 2 Playoff scoring titles, which is as many as Malkin and one more than Kane.
- Won 2 Selke trophies (Finished top 10, 12 times)
- Has accumulated 16 60+ pts seasons, good for top 10 all time behind only Howe, Gretzky, Ovechkin, Jagr, Francis, Crosby, Sakic, Messier and Dionne. He would probably be only trailing Gretzky, Howe, Ovechkin and Crosby if not for the shortened seasons (2013 lockout, COVID).
- Has built an impressive longevity resume and seems to be aging better than both Malkin and Kane.

His offensive peak might not be as good as Malkin's and Kane's, but he is worlds ahead on the defensive side of the ice, played on a defensive oriented system for most of his career and did not play with any other star teammate on offense (at least for most of his career). Is it enough to be considered the 3rd best player of the 2005 lockout generation ahead of Malkin and Kane? If not currently, can he eventually get there?

to answer the thread question: no

 

[Edmonton East]

There are a lot of dumb arguments on here, so probably.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Definitely not

 

[qcal1427]

Another interesting fact : Kopitar did not play with a single 70+ pts player from 2008 to 2022.

I think some people undervalue the environment in which Kopitar played in (defensive system limiting his offensive capabilities, very shallow supporting cast during his prime, excellent two-way center who rarely cheated for offense, if ever).

(FWIW, I have him 4th behind Malkin.)

Can also turn that the other way -- Kopitar wasn't great enough to transform any of the many good players he played with into a great player.

At the end of the day his only individual trophies are two Selkes (+2 Byngs and the incredibly prestigious Mark Messier Leadership Award if you want to count those). Only one top 3 Hart finish and no end of season all star teams. Much closer to Giroux, Bergeron, Tavares, etc. than Malkin and Kane.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

Crosby/Ovechkin
Malkin/Kane

That's your top 4 in whatever order you choose.

 

[FerrisRox]

Neither have I, but that's not what I said. The gap between Ovechkin/Crosby/Malkin and #4 is greater than the gaps between Kane, Kopitar, and Giroux for #4. I'd likely have Kane at #4.

Kopitar vs. Giroux for #5 is a much more interesting comparison. While Kopitar was a much better defensive player, Giroux was no slouch and was certainly better defensively than any player from 1-4. I still think Kopitar probably takes #5, though.

Not really.

I can't fathom a credible argument of any kind suggesting that Giroux is even remotely close to Kopitar. Kopitar is a much better player with much greater achievements in the league.

They shouldn't be mentioned together at all.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Can also turn that the other way -- Kopitar wasn't great enough to transform any of the many good players he played with into a great player.

At the end of the day his only individual trophies are two Selkes (+2 Byngs and the incredibly prestigious Mark Messier Leadership Award if you want to count those). Only one top 3 Hart finish and no end of season all star teams. Much closer to Giroux, Bergeron, Tavares, etc. than Malkin and Kane.

I don’t think anyone is disputing the fact he was/is a good level below those guys offensively. I do think his numbers didn’t reflect his actual talent, though.

The question basically comes down to:

- Do you think Kopitar’s defensive abilities and better all around game can compensate the gap (you determine the distance) offensively between Kane/Malkin and Kopitar?
- If the answer is no, then, do you think he can get closer with sustained longevity?

 

[Booker T]

Not really.

I can't fathom a credible argument of any kind suggesting that Giroux is even remotely close to Kopitar. Kopitar is a much better player with much great achievements in the league.

They shouldn't be mentioned together at all.

Giroux had the 4th most points between 2010-2011 and 2019-2020.

That's one argument. Not saying he's better than Kopitar, just saying that there certainly is an argument that could be made.

 

[FerrisRox]

Giroux had the 4th most points between 2010-2011 and 2019-2020.

That's one argument. Not saying he's better than Kopitar, just saying that there certainly is an argument that could be made.

But the question wasn't who had the most points in that window of time.

The question was who was the best players in that window, and there's no credible argument that Giroux is on the same level as Anze Kopitar.

 

[qcal1427]

I don’t think anyone is disputing the fact he was/is a good level below those guys offensively. I do think his numbers didn’t reflect his actual talent, though.

I didn't reference numbers at all, just individual awards of which he's well behind Malkin and Kane.

The question basically comes down to:

- Do you think Kopitar’s defensive abilities and better all around game can compensate the gap (you determine the distance) offensively between Kane/Malkin and Kopitar?

No. This is a bigger issue than just a Kopitar/Malkin/Kane discussion but the "problem" with defensive value is that there is a hard cap on how much value you can provide in that part of the game because you can't allow negative goals against. The best offensive players will always be able to create much more above average than the best defensive players can prevent above average.

- If the answer is no, then, do you think he can get closer with sustained longevity?

All 3 are still playing, so even though Kopitar is at the highest level of the three currently still no.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

I didn't reference numbers at all, just individual awards of which he's well behind Malkin and Kane.

No. This is a bigger issue than just a Kopitar/Malkin/Kane discussion but the "problem" with defensive value is that there is a hard cap on how much value you can provide in that part of the game because you can't allow negative goals against. The best offensive players will always be able to create much more above average than the best defensive players can prevent above average.

All 3 are still playing, so even though Kopitar is at the highest level of the three currently still no.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Personally, I don’t rank players based on individual awards.

 

[Stephen]

Is Thornton really part of that generation? He went 1OA in 1997, which seems like at least half a generation before the lockout.

I agree. An NHL generation is basically 5-7 years in length tops. First 5-7 years you’re in the young guns generation. After that you’re in prime veteran territory and anything after that you’re a geriatric.

I’d put the start of the Crosby Ovi generation at the draft 2003 and it probably runs to the 2009 draft with the Tavares Hedman class at the tail end. 2010 draft feels like the start of something different and runs to about 2014. New generation starts up during the McDavid draft in 2015.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

Between those three, I’m building around Kopitar. That makes him arguably 3rd best.

 

[Crow]

Kopitar is definitely on another level defensively compared to all of these guys.

 

[Goose]

Nope. Kopitar sits just behind Giroux and Getzlaf in terms of career points per game.

The gap between Kopitar and Malkin in terms of per game production is about the same as the gap between Kopitar and Tyler Toffoli.

Love Kopitar, all time great, but he’s not on Malkin’s level and never has been. His two-way play doesn’t make up for that skill gap.

 

[GMR]

Kopitar has pretty much always been underappreciated imo.

But he does have one glaring weakness on his resume: he was never the best player in the world.

Malkin obviously was in 2012. Kane easily was in 2016.

Not saying that ends the argument but at this level, being that guy for a time has to count for something.

Malkin was never really the best player in the world. Crosby and Ovechkin were higher at all times. Yeah, he won some major individual trophies but that doesn't by itself mean you're the best player. It just means you had the best season of any forward in the league.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

I agree. An NHL generation is basically 5-7 years in length tops. First 5-7 years you’re in the young guns generation. After that you’re in prime veteran territory and anything after that you’re a geriatric.

I’d put the start of the Crosby Ovi generation at the draft 2003 and it probably runs to the 2009 draft with the Tavares Hedman class at the tail end. 2010 draft feels like the start of something different and runs to about 2014. New generation starts up during the McDavid draft in 2015.

I think I'd start the Crosby/OV generation at about 2001, with Kovalchuk and Spezza, and agree with 2009 as a good stopping point. I agree 2010-12 was kind of a dip, with Hall/Seguin, RNH/Landy and Yakupov, and I'm not sure they belong in either group, but 2013 was the MacKinnon/Barkov/Drouin/Jones draft, so that's where I start the new generation, even if 2015 is when the floodgates opened.

 

[hamzarocks]

Malkin was never really the best player in the world. Crosby and Ovechkin were higher at all times. Yeah, he won some major individual trophies but that doesn't by itself mean you're the best player. It just means you had the best season of any forward in the league.

Malkin was a better player than OV in 2007, 2012, 2014, 2016 (though really they both weren't elite this year as only Kane had a truly elite year), 2017, 2018, and 2020

OV was better 2006 (malkin wouldnt have been better) 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2013, 2015, 2019, 2021, 2022, 2023, 2025

2005 & 2024 - they were pretty tied, with neither playing in 2005 due to lockout and 2024 both being mid 60 pt guys

Malkin better 7 years since 04 draft
OV better in 12 years since 04 draft
2 Years tied/NA

Malkin vs Crosby, he was better in 2009, 2012, 2018, 2020 so 4 seasons for sure

Malkin has had years definately better than both Crosby and OV throughout his career.