Is there a consensus on the origin of hockey?

[rangersfansince08]

I've heard everything from it being invented in Russia, Ireland, by British troops, Amerindians. Any consensus? If not what is most likely?

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[rangersfansince08]

Just took a look at the wikipedia page:
Its origins are in the British sports of bandy with some minor influence from hurling,shinty and lacrosse I guess?

 

[jigglysquishy]

Just took a look at the wikipedia page:
Its origins are in the British sports of bandy with some minor influence from hurling,shinty and lacrosse I guess?

It's definitely not a consensus.

Different First Nations groups claim to develop it, and with good historical support.

 

[rangersfansince08]

It's definitely not a consensus.

Different First Nations groups claim to develop it, and with good historical support.

Intresting. All I dound was

In the same era, the Mi'kmaq, a First Nations people of the Canadian Maritimes, also had a stick-and-ball game. Canadian oral histories describe a traditional stick-and-ball game played by the Mi'kmaq, and Silas Tertius Rand (in his 1894 Legends of the Micmacs) describes a Mi'kmaq ball game known as tooadijik. Rand also describes a game played (probably after European contact) with hurleys, known as wolchamaadijik.[19] Sticks made by the Mi'kmaq were used by the British for their games.

Ice hockey - Wikipedia

Guess it comes down to tracing linear descent and distingushing between a generic ball and stick game vs ice hockey to get an anwwer.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Nothing close to a consensus. Certain sports like basketball can point back to a specific point of origin, others like soccer can agree that they're broad social conventions that emerged from the mists of pre-history. Hockey is stuck somewhere in between, being a game that evolved from broad social conventions that existed in numerous cultures, and was refined down to an organized modern sport within a period that had just enough documentation to leave a trail of bread crumbs, but not enough for a clear paper trail.

What seems to be agreed upon is the 1875 Victoria Rink game, and subsequent rule-making and tournament-having over the next few years, as the origin of the organized sport of hockey. Trying to pin down the origin of the game of pushing objects into goals on ice is a hopeless task, and invites endless arguments about what distinguishes a hockey game from something which is like hockey but not hockey.

 

[rangersfansince08]

Nothing close to a consensus. Certain sports like basketball can point back to a specific point of origin, others like soccer can agree that they're broad social conventions that emerged from the mists of pre-history. Hockey is stuck somewhere in between, being a game that evolved from broad social conventions that existed in numerous cultures, and was refined down to an organized modern sport within a period that had just enough documentation to leave a trail of bread crumbs, but not enough for a clear paper trail.

What seems to be agreed upon is the 1875 Victoria Rink game, and subsequent rule-making and tournament-having over the next few years, as the origin of the organized sport of hockey. Trying to pin down the origin of the game of pushing objects into goals on ice is a hopeless task, and invites endless arguments about what distinguishes a hockey game from something which is like hockey but not hockey.

Thanks. Makes sense.

Home - The Birthplace of Hockey seems to refer to it as hurling on ice.

 

[hacksaw7]

The Hunters in the Snow

 

[rangersfansince08]

The Hunters in the Snow

Wasn't this more like golf on ice than ice hockey?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i feel like asking who invented pushing a thing around with a stick is like asking who invented playing with yourself

 

[hacksaw7]

Wasn't this more like golf on ice than ice hockey?

I honestly don't know what they were doing...if it was an organized game with rules or just aimlessly swatting a ball with sticks

 

[tarheelhockey]

Wasn't this more like golf on ice than ice hockey?

That's the belief. The game of "kolf" was an ice-bound version of golf, popular in the Netherlands and surrounding areas of that time.

Of course, the obvious problem is that nobody was keeping track of this stuff in an organized way, so all we have to go on are a small number of surviving paintings and the occasional written reference. If hundreds of children were playing some proto-hockey game on that same pond, we would stand very little chance of knowing about it.

 

[rangersfansince08]

That's the belief. The game of "kolf" was an ice-bound version of golf, popular in the Netherlands and surrounding areas of that time.

Of course, the obvious problem is that nobody was keeping track of this stuff in an organized way, so all we have to go on are a small number of surviving paintings and the occasional written reference. If hundreds of children were playing some proto-hockey game on that same pond, we would stand very little chance of knowing about it.

Wouldn't be a stretch to say they were. Its the natural move. But I think the British/Irish games seem like a more promising theory accordingt to historians.

 

[Overrated]

I've heard everything from it being invented in Russia, Ireland, by British troops, Amerindians. Any consensus? If not what is most likely?

I once heard it was the French Quebecois.

 

[rangersfansince08]

I once heard it was the French Quebecois.

It does seem like the rules were standardized in Eastern Canada.

 

[Dump and Chase Demon]

In some Nordic countries, as well as Russia and Kazakhstan, there is this old obscur sport called bandy.

It's kind of a ice version of european football. 11 x 11, corner kicks, free kicks. Stick is like an hybrid between field hockey and hockey stick, and it is played with a rubber ball. Less physical but very fast sport, with whole different mouvement dynamics and strategy. Super fun to play if you are a bit open minded.

Its it less and less popular and hockey kind of took over, but it still has regional niches where it's very big.

One hypotheses is that bandy was a way to play football during winter, with skates and stick/ball. Bandy slowly modernized into hockey.

For example, the old hockey rule of not being allowed to pass the puck up front might come from bandy, where there is "soccer style" offsides. Even if forward passes are allowed in bandy, they are way less common due the the play dynamics (lots of cycling and drop passes to gain speed/momentum advantage.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

I grew up thinking it was a Canadian invented sport.
which I guess at the time was ruled by the British?

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

In some Nordic countries, as well as Russia and Kazakhstan, there is this old obscur sport called bandy.

It's kind of a ice version of european football. 11 x 11, corner kicks, free kicks. Stick is like an hybrid between field hockey and hockey stick, and it is played with a rubber ball. Less physical but very fast sport, with whole different mouvement dynamics and strategy. Super fun to play if you are a bit open minded.

Its it less and less popular and hockey kind of took over, but it still has regional niches where it's very big.

One hypotheses is that bandy was a way to play football during winter, with skates and stick/ball. Bandy slowly modernized into hockey.

For example, the old hockey rule of not being allowed to pass the puck up front might come from bandy, where there is "soccer style" offsides. Even if forward passes are allowed in bandy, they are way less common due the the play dynamics (lots of cycling and drop passes to gain speed/momentum advantage.

In the 1910s when the IOC were planning to hold winter games, the idea was that one team sport between bandy or hockey would feature as an event. Sweden at the time had virtually no hockey experience, so they campaigned for bandy, however in the end it was decided that hockey would become the winter team event. I’m guessing that the words from Canada and the United States weighed heavily on the final decision, since I would believe more European countries were familiar with bandy.

Sweden basically went to work reeducating bandy players in the game of hockey in order to be able to field an Olympic roster. I think there were just a handful of Swedes with some working experience of this newfangled sport before the IOC decision.

Sweden placed 4th in the inaugural 1920 Winter Olympics in Antwerp, behind Canada, USA and Czechoslovakia. The North American teams toyed with their European counterparts, but the history of organized hockey in Europe begins here with these repurposed bandy players getting trashed, but continue developing their skills while generally using each other as measuring sticks until they are starting to become competitive with Canadian amateurs in the 40s and 50s.

 

[VanIslander]

After over 25 years on this board I can only say...

Google it.

A more nuanced thread will result!

 

[Cruor]

There's been a lot of good discussions about this topic on this board. Check this thread out for example, a veritable treasure trove of information:

Hockey Invented In England ... Not Canada

You might find the book On the Origin of Hockey that's being discussed interesting aswell.

 

[Theokritos]

There's been a lot of good discussions about this topic on this board. Check this thread out for example, a veritable treasure trove of information:

Hockey Invented In England ... Not Canada

You might find the book On the Origin of Hockeythat's being discussed interesting aswell.

Plus a recent counterperspective by Mark Grant: Hockey Hall of Fame Nomination : MI’KMAQ FIRST NATION

Discussion in two threads here:

Hockey Hall of Fame Nomination: Mi'kmaq First Nation

The Flat Thin Blade and the Hockey's stick 's presumed evolution

 

[rangersfansince08]

Thanks for the resources all.

 

[rangersfansince08]

In some Nordic countries, as well as Russia and Kazakhstan, there is this old obscur sport called bandy.

It's kind of a ice version of european football. 11 x 11, corner kicks, free kicks. Stick is like an hybrid between field hockey and hockey stick, and it is played with a rubber ball. Less physical but very fast sport, with whole different mouvement dynamics and strategy. Super fun to play if you are a bit open minded.

Its it less and less popular and hockey kind of took over, but it still has regional niches where it's very big.

One hypotheses is that bandy was a way to play football during winter, with skates and stick/ball. Bandy slowly modernized into hockey.

For example, the old hockey rule of not being allowed to pass the puck up front might come from bandy, where there is "soccer style" offsides. Even if forward passes are allowed in bandy, they are way less common due the the play dynamics (lots of cycling and drop passes to gain speed/momentum advantage.

Yes it does seem like bandy made the biggest influence.

 

[rangersfansince08]

Plus a recent counterperspective by Mike Grant: Hockey Hall of Fame Nomination : MI’KMAQ FIRST NATION

Discussion in two threads here:

Hockey Hall of Fame Nomination: Mi'kmaq First Nation

The Flat Thin Blade and the Hockey's stick 's presumed evolution

Thanks. The counterpoints to Mike Grant make more sense than his "theories"

 

[Batis]

In the 1910s when the IOC were planning to hold winter games, the idea was that one team sport between bandy or hockey would feature as an event. Sweden at the time had virtually no hockey experience, so they campaigned for bandy, however in the end it was decided that hockey would become the winter team event. I’m guessing that the words from Canada and the United States weighed heavily on the final decision, since I would believe more European countries were familiar with bandy.

According to the article quoted here below the IOC actually wanted Sweden to host a first Winter Olympics in 1912 and based on my understanding of it bandy would have been included in those games had they happened at that point.

"The story of bandy's exclusion from the Winter Olympics actually begins in 1901, with the organization of the first Nordic Games. Staged in Stockholm, the Nordic Games were the precursor to the Winter Olympics-the first event to focus on multiple winter sports. Bandy was one of the premier competitions in these inaugural Nordic games. A Swede, Viktor Balck, was both the emotion and the intellect behind the Nordic Games. He was also one of the original five members of the International Olympic Committee. After the Nordic Games were firmly established, Balck emphasized their importance to Sweden. "The Nordic Games have now become a major concern for our entire people" he proclaimed. "Above all we placed the national goal of rendering a service to the fatherland and bringing honor to our country". The Nordic Games were of such importance to Balck that in 1911 he refused when the other members of the IOC proposed that Sweden, after hosting the 1912 Summer Olympics, should also host the very first Winter Olympics that same year. Balck believed that a Winter Olympics would threaten the wintertime primacy of the Nordic Games. In the short term, Balck prevailed in this clash of wills with the IOC-there were no 1912 Winter Olympic Games. But in winning this battle he likely created an IOC grudge of 100 plus years' duration.

The first evidence of this rift appears during the preparations for the 1924 Paris Summer Olympics. Suspended because of World War I, the Summer Olympic Games resumed in 1920 in Antwerp, Belgium. Ice hockey was included as a sport because Antwerp had a small indoor ice rink. Partly inspired by ice hockey's inclusion in the 1920 Summer Games, the French organizers of the 1924 Summer Games worked together with the IOC to accomplish what Viktor Balck had refused to do in 1912-host a Winter Olympics. Viktor Balck played no role in the organization of these first Winter Games at Chamonix-and bandy, a favorite sport of Balck's, and of Sweden, was excluded. Indeed. it was conspicuous by its absence. Of course, Balck still had his Nordic Games, but they were now overshadowed and overwhelmed by the Winter Olympic Games. Interest in the Nordic Games quickly waned, with the last Nordic Games being held in 1926. Balck died in 1928, and two years later after the Nordic Games were cancelled due to a lack of snow, they ceased to exist.

In retrospect, a century later, Viktor Balck's decision to spurn the creation of the Winter Olympics in 1911, and in doing so spurn the IOC, now seems an epic miscalculation- and a catastrophic one for bandy in particular. Whether or not Balck's decisions led directly to the exclusion of bandy as an Olympic sport in 1924, that exclusion set the stage for the disappearance of bandy from the majority of European countries. Only in Sweden, Finland, Norway, the Soviet Union and, for a brief period, Estonia, did bandy continue to be played. With just 4 continuously competing countries, bandy had no easy path into the Olympics. And as we shall see, that path would be blocked again and again by the IOC."

A 100 Year Grudge? - Why Bandy Is Not In The Winter Olympics

 

[PrimumHockeyist]

Hi all

I have just posted the original version of a nomination essay that I submitted to the Hockey Hall of Fame in support of the Mi'kmaq First Nation's contributions to early Ice Hockey. The name is Mark by the way. And yes, before you ask, I spell my name with a k.

For those of you here who have been keeping an eye on this, there are no surprises here, The pdf version is basically the same copy that I posted on my blog and later on in my book. That said, if anyone cares to download a copy of the original nomination essay, which I submitted to the Hall and the Governor General in December of 2021, they can do so here.

Now that the Hall has a new leader, I will be reaching out to Mike Gartner on this and the matter of getting Dartmouth and Halifax recognized by the Hall as well.