Is There a Case For Kucherov > Ovechkin?

[DFC]

Crying about how "imagine if Kuch had Stamkos," bro he has f***ing Point and Guentzel.

Yeah, in fact Kucherov was Stamkos's personal cheat code and not the other way around.

Kucherov is a very special playmaker though. Very likely the best playmaking winger of all-time. But Ovy is almost certainly the best goal scorer of all time, full stop, period.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

He has only been top 5 in MVP voting twice in his career so far which is really weird even if he has had injuries. When you factor in that he also didn't win a Conn Smythe after 2 fantastic playoff runs then I can see why people feel like the voters have a problem with him.

On the other hand, from 2017 to 2024, Kucherov was 4th in scoring, and 4th in Hart votes, so that doesn't seem unreasonable. It's virtually certain that, after this year, he'll be 4th in scoring and 3rd in Hart votes going back to 2017. Plus, as I mentioned before, he got more votes for the Conn Smythe than any other player in 2020 and 2021 (just that he wasn't in lead in either year on a standalone basis).

 

[qcal1427]

Scoring is way up.

Kucherov is a slightly better pt producer but has had the luxury of playing his prime years in an era with higher scoring across the board.

Ovi in 2008 was definitely better than kucherov in 2024.


Overall, there is a very weak case for Kuch > Ovi. It isn't nonexistent, but it's very weak.

Considering ovi is literally going to break gretzkys goal record, there won't be any case for Kucherov career wise. Peak? I still take ovi but some will disagree. But career? Not close

If you put 2008 Ovi in today's scoring environment and defensive/goaltending talent he'd score 82 goals

 

[Regal]

This table shows where the player who finished 3rd in scoring ranked in Hart trophy voting (1968 to 2024):

Player	Year	Hart
Corey Perry	2011	1
Alex Ovechkin	2013	1
Guy Lafleur	1979	2
Dale Hawerchuk	1985	2
Paul Kariya	1997	2
Sidney Crosby	2013	2
Sidney Crosby	2016	2
David Pastrnak	2023	2
Bobby Orr	1973	3
Darryl Sittler	1978	3
Denis Savard	1983	3
Steve Yzerman	1989	3
Jarome Iginla	2008	3
Claude Giroux	2014	3
Artemi Panarin	2020	3
Connor McDavid	2024	3
Stan Mikita	1970	4
Jean Ratelle	1972	4
Guy Lafleur	1980	4
Peter Stastny	1982	4
Paul Coffey	1986	4
Mario Lemieux	1987	4
Adam Oates	1993	4
Joe Thornton	2003	4
Vincent Lecavalier	2007	4
Claude Giroux	2012	4
David Pastrnak	2020	4
Gordie Howe	1968	5
Gordie Howe	1969	5
Denis Savard	1988	5
Wayne Gretzky	1998	5
Sidney Crosby	2015	5
Brad Marchand	2021	5
Joe Sakic	1996	6
Mark Recchi	2000	6
Patrik Elias	2001	6
Alex Ovechkin	2006	6
Sidney Crosby	2009	6
Nikita Kucherov	2018	6
Gilbert Perreault	1976	7
Michel Goulet	1984	7
Steve Yzerman	1990	7
Marcel Dionne	1975	8
Kent Nilsson	1981	8
Paul Kariya	1999	8
Patrick Kane	2019	8
Mark Messier	1987	9
Ken Hodge	1974	11
Adam Oates	1994	12
Nikita Kucherov	2023	12
John Bucyk	1971	NR
Steve Shutt	1977	NR
Adam Oates	1991	NR
Wayne Gretzky	1992	NR
Alex Zhamnov	1995	NR
Pavel Bure	1998	NR
Todd Bertuzzi	2002	NR

The median rank is 5th place. But there's a wide range. We have two Hart trophy winners and six runners-up, but we also have three players who fell out of the top ten in voting, and seven players who received no votes at all.

To answer your question - the last time a player finished 3rd in scoring, and placed out of the top ten in Hart voting, was 2002 (Todd Bertuzzi - and that's because his linemate Markus Naslund was even better). Before that we have 1998 (Pavel Bure - non playoff team), 1995 (Alexei Zhamnov - also a non playoff team) and 1994 (Adam Oates - his teammate Ray Bourque was clearly better).

Would be interesting to look at it in terms of margins over the pack though. Every forward that finished ahead of him in Hart voting except for Hughes was no lower than 8 points behind him, and all of them had at least 10 more goals. It was a bit of an open field after McDavid that year and it was probably expectations more than anything than had him fall behind the others.

 

[aylib]

As a Bolts fan, I'd say no. Kuch is a special player, but whoever topples Gretz record is in a league of their own.

 

[rielledup]

Peak Ovechkin is probably a averaging 70 goals and 130 points in today's NHL. Peak Ovechkin didn't last very long though, he became much more of a one dimensional goal scorer once he got passed his mid 20's. Kucherov is 31 and would've been on pace for 130 this year had he not missed a few games and is on track for a 3rd Art Ross. He also has two cups and put up big numbers in both of those Cup wins. It's an interesting discussion.

 

[kmart]

I believe Canadian media values intangibles and defensive ability more heavily than most do. That's why Crosby is constantly ranked so high: great defense, leadership, and winning ability. Those things sell to casuals because not everyone is going not dig into the stats, or try to determine the value of a secondary assist etc.

so, even by those standards, ovi is a captain, he lead his team through low winning seasons, he hit, he produced with a below average supporting casts, this is what separates him from other russians like malkin and kuch

other than that, there should be no argument that a country values their homegrown stars a litte bit more, just take a look at the history section, jagr second in points barely cracks the top20, no amount of egoistical and low intangibles can explain that...

 

[Pierre Larouche]

They are different players with different skill sets. Both amazing.

 

[DFC]

Would be interesting to look at it in terms of margins over the pack though. Every forward that finished ahead of him in Hart voting except for Hughes was no lower than 8 points behind him, and all of them had at least 10 more goals. It was a bit of an open field after McDavid that year and it was probably expectations more than anything than had him fall behind the others.

True, but this does feel like one of those years. No clear favorite, no runaway scoring leader, one of the top guys has a lot more goals and an injured star player....

 

[DRW895]

Not even close. But he`s alredy beats Malkin

 

[TheGuiminator]

As others said, it’s a lot closer than people think. When it’s all said and done, it’s going to come down to a 3 horse race between Jagr, Kucherov, and Ovechkin for the greatest European player of all time.

 

[wetcoast]

In my opinion, it's very limiting to limit oneself to the number of points, and even more so to the number of goals, when evaluating a player.If you ask me who I prefer between Ovechkin and Matthews, I'd take Matthews.Among the forwards born in the 90s, I have five guys above Ovechkin (McDavid, McKinnon, Kucherov, Draisaitl, Matthews).

No idea on how you can argue this for careers.

The 80s generation is a weak generation. Crosby is easily number 1. Then there's the debate between Ovechkin, Malkin, and Kane.

Just because one says something doesn't make it true.

The fact that close to everyone has Crosby/Ovi, then the rest is more telling than your opinion here right?

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

No idea on how you can argue this for careers.



Just because one says something doesn't make it true.

The fact that close to everyone has Crosby/Ovi, then the rest is more telling than your opinion here right?

Two meaningless objections to say nothing.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Peak Ovechkin is probably a averaging 70 goals and 130 points in today's NHL. Peak Ovechkin didn't last very long though, he became much more of a one dimensional goal scorer

Ovechkin has never remotely been a one dimensional player.

 

[Cup Or Bust]

Kucherov is probably a better all-around offensive player at his best than Ovechkin, but Ovechkin's greatness and legacy as a player will be miles higher. Ovechkin has been one of the faces of the league for a generation and he will be the greatest goal scorer of all time. Kucherov is one of the best offensive players of his generation, but Ovechkin's greatness and his legacy in the game will be talked about for decades.

 

[rielledup]

Ovechkin has never remotely been a one dimensional player.

I meant as in his assists and points went way down. He went from a guy who was a threat to win both the rocket and the art to a guy who never came close to challenging for the art ross.

 

[rielledup]

During Ovies three best seasons he had a goals per game and points per game that would work out to an average of 60 goals and 116 points. During Kucherovs three best seasons the average goals per game in the NHL was 9 percent higher. Not that this is a perfect science but that would make Ovies numbers equal to 65 goals and 126 during those years. Kucherov goals and points per game during his three best seasons would equal an average of just over 40 goals and 133 points.

Ovie during his absolute peak mightve been a top 5 player of all time when looking at pure physical talent/ability. It's a shame his peak was so short. I've read two different articles from two of his previous GMs talking about how much his weight had ballooned and how they wanted him to stay in better shape. If I remember correctly the first one coincided with when he had that slump where his numbers completely fell off a cliff for two years. It seems as if this has been an issue throughout his career and I wonder what his numbers would look like right now if he had kept himself in better shape earlier in his career.