Is There a Case For Kucherov > Ovechkin?

I believe Canadian media values intangibles and defensive ability more heavily than most do. That's why Crosby is constantly ranked so high: great defense, leadership, and winning ability.

The next time Crosby plays great defense will be the first time.

Here in real life his defensive statistics are entirely unremarkable, and often flat out terrible:


I do agree that the Canadian media credits individuals with team accomplishments - well past being a fault. A recent NHL.com panel claimed Quick was as good as Lundqvist (which is nuts) on that very basis.
 
The next time Crosby plays great defense will be the first time.

Here in real life his defensive statistics are entirely unremarkable, and often flat out terrible:


I do agree that the Canadian media credits individuals with team accomplishments - well past being a fault. A recent NHL.com panel claimed Quick was as good as Lundqvist (which is nuts) on that very basis.
Wow, you're right! Crosby has been on ice for 194 goals against compared to 146 for Ovi since 2022. Crosby also has 110 high danger goals against, compared to 96 for Ovi. Ovi faced 1597 shots against compared to Crosby's 1942 however. Crosby has a higher CF% at 54% compared to 50% for Ovi, higher CF differential means a team or player is generating more shot attempts than they are allowing when on the ice. Crosby also has almost triple the defensive zone starts. In conclusion, even if he is not a good defender anymore, he's still better than Ovi on that end.
 
Wow, you're right! Crosby has been on ice for 194 goals against compared to 146 for Ovi since 2022. Ovi faced 1597 shots against compared to Crosby's 1942 however. Crosby has a higher CF% at 54% compared to 50% for Ovi, higher CF differential means a team or player is generating more shot attempts than they are allowing when on the ice.


Having your line in constant flux because your wingman is perpetually injured, his replacement is having a prolonged mental breakdown and refusing to play the game properly and his replacement's replacement is generally not great defensively will do that.
 
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You want to look at his full resume, while dismissing a massive part of that as overhyped and the trophies you don't like as worthless?
890+ goals, 9 50 goal seasons, and 9 Rockets are insane, but those goals are worthless if you're not accomplishing shit in the vast majority seasons of your career. I don't wanna dismiss it and the Ovechkin stans don't like it, but Ovi's overall resume is just simply lackluster compared to all time great legends including Kucherov. Crosby dusts him, McDavid does, Jagr does. Again, goals are the most important thing in hockey, we all know that. But it simply doesn't hold more value if you have another player who is a greater more complete offensive player and is a point production monster akin to Jagr, Gretzky and Lemieux and............ is one of the greatest playoff performers ever on top of that lol. He's the greatest goalscorer ever, that's it. There's plenty of players that are overall better than him and will surpass him.

Ovi's a great playoff player, and he obviously was surrounded by lackluster playoff players like Backstrom and Kuznetsov but he's not Kuch in the slightest lol. Don't ever tell me he'd be able to do what Kuch did in 2021 after missing a full season lmao, gtfoh. Ovi has carried teams in the playoffs, but Kuch does that while ELEVATING to another stratosphere while also being f***ing clutch, the entire 2022 playoffs was a carry job that sort've told everything. He legit had Stamkos as his only offensive player while Point was injured and still carried Tampa to a cup finals appearance.

I don't hate the Rocket, but nobody in their right f***ing mind would choose the Rocket over the Ross/Hart lol. It's simply a lesser value trophy and it's not entirely worthless but it hold's zero value with the other trophies. This is facts, I'm pretty sure it's only been 1 or 2 winners (2017 Sid, 2004 Lecavlier?) for that trophy that have gone on to win the cup. That practically says everything, it's cool scoring goals but It's also way easier to shut down a goalscorer compared to a playmaker.

You may mention Ovi carrying those early dogshit caps teams but Kuch demonstrated what type of carrying ability he has last season by having an even greater season than 08 Ovi, 65 goals be damned, last year with 100 assists, a feat only done by 4 other f***ing individuals and 140+pts lmao. A random will mention the high scoring era, but this current version of Kuch is still pacing for 120-130pts in the dead puck era easily. He's a physical player but it's all IQ and based on the last 7 seasons, there's zero doubt in my mind that he could carry a team just like early 06-10 Ovi. Hell, they probably would've made the cup finals in a couple of those seasons. His IQ, Passing, Playmaking, Instincts would do more damage than all volume shots + f***ing scoring 50-60 goals all season. Instead 50, 110pts, it's more like 40-50goals, 80-90 assists, 130-140pts

Ovechkin still has 3 MVP's over him but not only did Kuch get utterly robbed last year but he has so much time to catch up on him that it would be plain delusion IMHO if he somehow manages to do it and you still claim that Ovi is a better player just because of his goals lol. Kuch is damn near close to winning back to back rosses, while also 40pts away from reaching the 200pt playoff barrier lol. Only Jagr and Kurri are the only wingers to have done that. If he does while also managing to win another cup, it's straight up laughable
 
I think he’s referring to how Ovi changed his style to a pure goal scorer after 2010. Ovi pre-2010 was just a very different player, he was a puck carrier, a play driver, playmaker and played closer to how Mackinnon plays today. If Ovi maintained that playstyle until age 30 or so, there would be no Crosby and Ovi discussion. He was that good.

Poetry. Ovechkin pre 2010 might be among the five greatest players I’ve ever seen play. That’s the biggest reason I haven’t been over the moon about him since then. It was a premature loss that I’m still mourning.
 
890+ goals, 9 50 goal seasons, and 9 Rockets are insane, but those goals are worthless if you're not accomplishing shit in the vast majority seasons of your career. I don't wanna dismiss it and the Ovechkin stans don't like it, but Ovi's overall resume is just simply lackluster compared to all time great legends including Kucherov. Crosby dusts him, McDavid does, Jagr does. Again, goals are the most important thing in hockey, we all know that. But it simply doesn't hold more value if you have another player who is a greater more complete offensive player and is a point production monster akin to Jagr, Gretzky and Lemieux and............ is one of the greatest playoff performers ever on top of that lol. He's the greatest goalscorer ever, that's it. There's plenty of players that are overall better than him and will surpass him.

Ovi's a great playoff player, and he obviously was surrounded by lackluster playoff players like Backstrom and Kuznetsov but he's not Kuch in the slightest lol. Don't ever tell me he'd be able to do what Kuch did in 2021 after missing a full season lmao, gtfoh. Ovi has carried teams in the playoffs, but Kuch does that while ELEVATING to another stratosphere while also being f***ing clutch, the entire 2022 playoffs was a carry job that sort've told everything. He legit had Stamkos as his only offensive player while Point was injured and still carried Tampa to a cup finals appearance.

I don't hate the Rocket, but nobody in their right f***ing mind would choose the Rocket over the Ross/Hart lol. It's simply a lesser value trophy and it's not entirely worthless but it hold's zero value with the other trophies. This is facts, I'm pretty sure it's only been 1 or 2 winners (2017 Sid, 2004 Lecavlier?) for that trophy that have gone on to win the cup. That practically says everything, it's cool scoring goals but It's also way easier to shut down a goalscorer compared to a playmaker.

You may mention Ovi carrying those early dogshit caps teams but Kuch demonstrated what type of carrying ability he has last season by having an even greater season than 08 Ovi, 65 goals be damned, last year with 100 assists, a feat only done by 4 other f***ing individuals and 140+pts lmao. A random will mention the high scoring era, but this current version of Kuch is still pacing for 120-130pts in the dead puck era easily. He's a physical player but it's all IQ and based on the last 7 seasons, there's zero doubt in my mind that he could carry a team just like early 06-10 Ovi. Hell, they probably would've made the cup finals in a couple of those seasons. His IQ, Passing, Playmaking, Instincts would do more damage than all volume shots + f***ing scoring 50-60 goals all season. Instead 50, 110pts, it's more like 40-50goals, 80-90 assists, 130-140pts

Ovechkin still has 3 MVP's over him but not only did Kuch get utterly robbed last year but he has so much time to catch up on him that it would be plain delusion IMHO if he somehow manages to do it and you still claim that Ovi is a better player just because of his goals lol. Kuch is damn near close to winning back to back rosses, while also 40pts away from reaching the 200pt playoff barrier lol. Only Jagr and Kurri are the only wingers to have done that. If he does while also managing to win another cup, it's straight up laughable
That's a lot of typing to try to justify a weird bias. Yes, I read it all. Yes, it's a jumbled mess.

What exactly is your point in all of this? Are you arguing the thread topic, which is individual play or Cup topic, which is team play? If you're arguing Cup topic, you've already acknowledged that Ovechkin's generally had a weaker supporting cast than his contemporaries. If you're arguing individual play, you've already acknowledged Ovechkin's MVP advantage and his Rocket dominance.

Are you just being contrary for the sake of being contrary?

Also, bear in mind that you'll not find one reference in this thread of me directly saying Ovechkin's a better player than Kucherov. You won't find me saying Kucherov's better than Ovechkin, either. What you will find is a whole lot of me being puzzled by the efforts to downplay Ovechkin's career suddenly in order to support the notion that Kucherov's entire career has been better than Ovechkin's entire career.

Late Edit: Also, color me impressed. I've never seen someone argue against themselves so much in a single post.
 
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That's a lot of typing to try to justify a weird bias. Yes, I read it all. Yes, it's a jumbled mess.

What exactly is your point in all of this? Are you arguing the thread topic, which is individual play or Cup topic, which is team play? If you're arguing Cup topic, you've already acknowledged that Ovechkin's generally had a weaker supporting cast than his contemporaries. If you're arguing individual play, you've already acknowledged Ovechkin's MVP advantage and his Rocket dominance.

Are you just being contrary for the sake of being contrary?

Also, bear in mind that you'll not find one reference in this thread of me directly saying Ovechkin's a better player than Kucherov. You won't find me saying Kucherov's better than Ovechkin, either. What you will find is a whole lot of me being puzzled by the efforts to downplay Ovechkin's career suddenly in order to support the notion that Kucherov's entire career has been better than Ovechkin's entire career.
My point is that Kuch is a better player than Ovi by a longshot and those goal totals are massively overhyped since Ovi barely did shit in the playoffs and it'll even be more laughable by 2034-2035 if Kuch decorates his trophy case with more 100pt seasons, Harts and MVPs which he almost certaintly will.
 
It also wouldn't be shocking if he wins 2 more cups to further solidify his case against Ovi, as if he didn't last year with the 100 assists or this year with a possible b2b Art Ross win in 5 less games
 
Peak ovi was a showman and lightning ball of energy . Peak kucherov just dominates the game and is always two steps ahead. Totally different players skill sets and both are generational winger talents. I love both and feel bad tbe hate they get because of a war they have nothing to do with. Peak ovi was one of the best 1 or 2 in his prime and Peak kucherov has been the best in back to back seasons and cup runs during his prime.
 
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It’s pretty much known at this point that Kucherov has a bad reputation in the medias. In 2022-2023, he finished 3rd in scoring behind the Oilers duo and didn’t even finish top 10 in Hart voting.

When was the last instance of a player finishing 3rd in scoring on a playoffs team to not finish top 10 in Hart voting?

EDIT: Meant to post that in the Kucherov/Hart thread, but oh well.
 
My point is that Kuch is a better player than Ovi by a longshot and those goal totals are massively overhyped since Ovi barely did shit in the playoffs and it'll even be more laughable by 2034-2035 if Kuch decorates his trophy case with more 100pt seasons, Harts and MVPs which he almost certaintly will.
When both players have retired, one will be remembered as the greatest goal scorer in history and the other will be remembered as a guy who used to score a lot of points. You write like someone who's just started watching hockey in the last 5 years. Kuch is good, but he's got nothing on peak Ovi.
 
When both players have retired, one will be remembered as the greatest goal scorer in history and the other will be remembered as a guy who used to score a lot of points. You write like someone who's just started watching hockey in the last 5 years. Kuch is good, but he's got nothing on peak Ovi.
By the time he retires and once the praising wares off, Ovi will be remembered as the most underachieving goalscorer ever. A possible 900+ goals with only 1 Cup, and a mere Conference Finals appearance lol. The legacy is 100% solidified but he'll be laughed at 20 years from now for his overall accomplishments. 9 Rockets and 3 MVP's be damned.

I'd take the guy who scores lots of points over a shit load of goals. 99 over Bossy anyday

Peak Ovi isn't coming close to replicating the production that a player like 2020-2022 Kuch did in the playoffs.

Peak Ovi wouldn't even come close to replicating a season like 2024 Kuch had.

Kuch absolutely has something on Peak Ovi and you'll see it happen surely in the next couple of years and by time 2034-2036 hits comfortably.
 
When was the last instance of a player finishing 3rd in scoring on a playoffs team to not finish top 10 in Hart voting?
This table shows where the player who finished 3rd in scoring ranked in Hart trophy voting (1968 to 2024):

PlayerYearHart
Corey Perry20111
Alex Ovechkin20131
Guy Lafleur19792
Dale Hawerchuk19852
Paul Kariya19972
Sidney Crosby20132
Sidney Crosby20162
David Pastrnak20232
Bobby Orr19733
Darryl Sittler19783
Denis Savard19833
Steve Yzerman19893
Jarome Iginla20083
Claude Giroux20143
Artemi Panarin20203
Connor McDavid20243
Stan Mikita19704
Jean Ratelle19724
Guy Lafleur19804
Peter Stastny19824
Paul Coffey19864
Mario Lemieux19874
Adam Oates19934
Joe Thornton20034
Vincent Lecavalier20074
Claude Giroux20124
David Pastrnak20204
Gordie Howe19685
Gordie Howe19695
Denis Savard19885
Wayne Gretzky19985
Sidney Crosby20155
Brad Marchand20215
Joe Sakic19966
Mark Recchi20006
Patrik Elias20016
Alex Ovechkin20066
Sidney Crosby20096
Nikita Kucherov20186
Gilbert Perreault19767
Michel Goulet19847
Steve Yzerman19907
Marcel Dionne19758
Kent Nilsson19818
Paul Kariya19998
Patrick Kane20198
Mark Messier19879
Ken Hodge197411
Adam Oates199412
Nikita Kucherov202312
John Bucyk1971NR
Steve Shutt1977NR
Adam Oates1991NR
Wayne Gretzky1992NR
Alex Zhamnov1995NR
Pavel Bure1998NR
Todd Bertuzzi2002NR

The median rank is 5th place. But there's a wide range. We have two Hart trophy winners and six runners-up, but we also have three players who fell out of the top ten in voting, and seven players who received no votes at all.

To answer your question - the last time a player finished 3rd in scoring, and placed out of the top ten in Hart voting, was 2002 (Todd Bertuzzi - and that's because his linemate Markus Naslund was even better). Before that we have 1998 (Pavel Bure - non playoff team), 1995 (Alexei Zhamnov - also a non playoff team) and 1994 (Adam Oates - his teammate Ray Bourque was clearly better).
 
This table shows where the player who finished 3rd in scoring ranked in Hart trophy voting (1968 to 2024):

PlayerYearHart
Corey Perry20111
Alex Ovechkin20131
Guy Lafleur19792
Dale Hawerchuk19852
Paul Kariya19972
Sidney Crosby20132
Sidney Crosby20162
David Pastrnak20232
Bobby Orr19733
Darryl Sittler19783
Denis Savard19833
Steve Yzerman19893
Jarome Iginla20083
Claude Giroux20143
Artemi Panarin20203
Connor McDavid20243
Stan Mikita19704
Jean Ratelle19724
Guy Lafleur19804
Peter Stastny19824
Paul Coffey19864
Mario Lemieux19874
Adam Oates19934
Joe Thornton20034
Vincent Lecavalier20074
Claude Giroux20124
David Pastrnak20204
Gordie Howe19685
Gordie Howe19695
Denis Savard19885
Wayne Gretzky19985
Sidney Crosby20155
Brad Marchand20215
Joe Sakic19966
Mark Recchi20006
Patrik Elias20016
Alex Ovechkin20066
Sidney Crosby20096
Nikita Kucherov20186
Gilbert Perreault19767
Michel Goulet19847
Steve Yzerman19907
Marcel Dionne19758
Kent Nilsson19818
Paul Kariya19998
Patrick Kane20198
Mark Messier19879
Ken Hodge197411
Adam Oates199412
Nikita Kucherov202312
John Bucyk1971NR
Steve Shutt1977NR
Adam Oates1991NR
Wayne Gretzky1992NR
Alex Zhamnov1995NR
Pavel Bure1998NR
Todd Bertuzzi2002NR

The median rank is 5th place. But there's a wide range. We have two Hart trophy winners and six runners-up, but we also have three players who fell out of the top ten in voting, and seven players who received no votes at all.

To answer your question - the last time a player finished 3rd in scoring, and placed out of the top ten in Hart voting, was 2002 (Todd Bertuzzi - and that's because his linemate Markus Naslund was even better). Before that we have 1998 (Pavel Bure - non playoff team), 1995 (Alexei Zhamnov - also a non playoff team) and 1994 (Adam Oates - his teammate Ray Bourque was clearly better).
He has only been top 5 in MVP voting twice in his career so far which is really weird even if he has had injuries. When you factor in that he also didn't win a Conn Smythe after 2 fantastic playoff runs then I can see why people feel like the voters have a problem with him.
 
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This table shows where the player who finished 3rd in scoring ranked in Hart trophy voting (1968 to 2024):

PlayerYearHart
Corey Perry20111
Alex Ovechkin20131
Guy Lafleur19792
Dale Hawerchuk19852
Paul Kariya19972
Sidney Crosby20132
Sidney Crosby20162
David Pastrnak20232
Bobby Orr19733
Darryl Sittler19783
Denis Savard19833
Steve Yzerman19893
Jarome Iginla20083
Claude Giroux20143
Artemi Panarin20203
Connor McDavid20243
Stan Mikita19704
Jean Ratelle19724
Guy Lafleur19804
Peter Stastny19824
Paul Coffey19864
Mario Lemieux19874
Adam Oates19934
Joe Thornton20034
Vincent Lecavalier20074
Claude Giroux20124
David Pastrnak20204
Gordie Howe19685
Gordie Howe19695
Denis Savard19885
Wayne Gretzky19985
Sidney Crosby20155
Brad Marchand20215
Joe Sakic19966
Mark Recchi20006
Patrik Elias20016
Alex Ovechkin20066
Sidney Crosby20096
Nikita Kucherov20186
Gilbert Perreault19767
Michel Goulet19847
Steve Yzerman19907
Marcel Dionne19758
Kent Nilsson19818
Paul Kariya19998
Patrick Kane20198
Mark Messier19879
Ken Hodge197411
Adam Oates199412
Nikita Kucherov202312
John Bucyk1971NR
Steve Shutt1977NR
Adam Oates1991NR
Wayne Gretzky1992NR
Alex Zhamnov1995NR
Pavel Bure1998NR
Todd Bertuzzi2002NR

The median rank is 5th place. But there's a wide range. We have two Hart trophy winners and six runners-up, but we also have three players who fell out of the top ten in voting, and seven players who received no votes at all.

To answer your question - the last time a player finished 3rd in scoring, and placed out of the top ten in Hart voting, was 2002 (Todd Bertuzzi - and that's because his linemate Markus Naslund was even better). Before that we have 1998 (Pavel Bure - non playoff team), 1995 (Alexei Zhamnov - also a non playoff team) and 1994 (Adam Oates - his teammate Ray Bourque was clearly better).
Great work. I had looked in recent years up to the 2005 lockout and couldn’t find anyone else to have it happen to them.

So basically, since 1992 (Gretzky), Kucherov is the only player who finished top 3 in scoring, was the best player on his team and made the playoffs to not end up top 10 in Hart voting. Interesting.
 
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Great work. I had looked in recent years up to the 2005 lockout and couldn’t find anyone else to have it happen to them.

So basically, since 1992 (Gretzky), Kucherov is the only player who finished top 3 in scoring, was the best player on his team and made the playoffs to not end up top 10 in Hart voting. Interesting.
Kucherov was also 6th in MVP voting in 2018 as the 3rd highest scorer in the league when Tampa won the East with 113 points and every player ahead of him in MVP voting played for teams that finished under 100 points.
 
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I think Kucherov is going to be dominant for a while yet. My guess is he goes down as the second best Russian player in history.
 

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