Is There a Case For Kucherov > Ovechkin?

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Will Kucherov be the greatest goal scorer in NHL history? (No).. so um... No.

With your argument, Ovechkin is the best player of all time. Bourque is the best defenseman of all time.

Strangely, these are the two players who have focused their game the most on shooting.

Have you ever wondered why a goal isn't valued more highly than a secondary assist?

Because it doesn't mean much.

Just look at how goal scorers are considered in different drafts. Teams prioritize playmakers and defensive players.

Ovechkin's game prevents the guys around him from scoring a lot of goals. Semin is the only one to have a 40-goal season besides Ovechkin in 21 years. The only one to have scored more than 30 goals multiple times. After that, it's just Wilson at 31 goals. Often guys with 25 goals.

Ovechkin's game prevents the guys around him from scoring many goals. Semin is the only one to have a 40-goal season besides Ovechkin in 21 years. The only one to have scored more than 30 goals multiple times. After that, it's only Wilson with 31 goals. Often guys with 25 goals.

By the end of this season, the 40-goal mark for a teammate of Kucherov should be reached nine times, and even more by the end of his career. No more 30-goal guys, no more 20-goal guys. Over 11 years instead of 21.

With Kucherov at 120 points you can have three guys with 40 goals, whereas with Ovechkin 90 points you have Ovechkin with 50 goals and the next guy with half as many.

Yes, because Kucherov has 40-goal seasons without pushing himself, playing very team-oriented.

These are the reasons why I consider Kucherov better. And then there's the fact that Ovechkin was unable to become part of a dynasty while all the other great Russian players did. Because even if Kucherov is put aside, I'm not convinced by Ovechkin's superiority over Fedorov, Datsyuk, and Malkin.

 

[Lou Sassole]

OV has choked hard in the playoffs before 2018 and wilted too. He got over the hump in 2018. Kucherov since that series led the playoffs 2X in scoring winning B2B cups and made another finals (3X straight) where he was 4th in playoffs in pts

Over a 120+ game sample size he is a 67 pt player in the playoffs post falloff from 2011 onwards

Kucherov has dominated teams and made them wilt in his 2 cup + 3 final leading runs.

The caps never got back to that level otherwise they would have had to play prime Kucherov from 2020-2022 in the playoffs.

Kucherov is the best playoff performing winger from the lockout onwards era. He isnt someone OV can beat in the playoffs

If Kucherov had to

That's your point of view. I don't share the same opinion at all.

I think Kucherov has the best game to help his team, and the results have proven it. Your arguments seem flimsy and unconvincing to me.

Anyway, I already had my mind made up last year. It's just that this past year has reinforced my idea.

Good continuation.

I like how you just ignore that Ovechkin was an absolutely dominant physical force that intimidated players throughout the first 15+ years of his career. He scared the shit out of defensemen. Among top scorers, he completely laps the field when it comes to hits.

 

[Lou Sassole]

How did they save hockey?

Crosby and Ovechkin?

 

[Lou Sassole]

With your argument, Ovechkin is the best player of all time. Bourque is the best defenseman of all time.

Strangely, these are the two players who have focused their game the most on shooting.

Have you ever wondered why a goal isn't valued more highly than a secondary assist?

Because it doesn't mean much.

Just look at how goal scorers are considered in different drafts. Teams prioritize playmakers and defensive players.

Ovechkin's game prevents the guys around him from scoring a lot of goals. Semin is the only one to have a 40-goal season besides Ovechkin in 21 years. The only one to have scored more than 30 goals multiple times. After that, it's just Wilson at 31 goals. Often guys with 25 goals.

Ovechkin's game prevents the guys around him from scoring many goals. Semin is the only one to have a 40-goal season besides Ovechkin in 21 years. The only one to have scored more than 30 goals multiple times. After that, it's only Wilson with 31 goals. Often guys with 25 goals.

By the end of this season, the 40-goal mark for a teammate of Kucherov should be reached nine times, and even more by the end of his career. No more 30-goal guys, no more 20-goal guys. Over 11 years instead of 21.

With Kucherov at 120 points you can have three guys with 40 goals, whereas with Ovechkin 90 points you have Ovechkin with 50 goals and the next guy with half as many.

Yes, because Kucherov has 40-goal seasons without pushing himself, playing very team-oriented.

These are the reasons why I consider Kucherov better. And then there's the fact that Ovechkin was unable to become part of a dynasty while all the other great Russian players did. Because even if Kucherov is put aside, I'm not convinced by Ovechkin's superiority over Fedorov, Datsyuk, and Malkin.

Ovechkin turned chris clark into a 30 goal scorer. Your point is just wrong, I watched him make guys better.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

If Kucherov had to

I like how you just ignore that Ovechkin was an absolutely dominant physical force that intimidated players throughout the first 15+ years of his career. He scared the shit out of defensemen. Among top scorers, he completely laps the field when it comes to hits.

Ovechkin has a much heavier physical commitment on the boards and a more powerful slap shot as an advantage. He's not a defensive monster next to that either.

But Kucherov is a much better skater, is infinitely more skilled, carries the puck more, and has a significantly higher team hockey IQ.

 

[Planetov]

Ovechkin has a much heavier physical commitment on the boards and a more powerful slap shot as an advantage. He's not a defensive monster next to that either.

He was never billed as such, and never needed to be to have a wildly successful, HOF career. It would benefit you to appreciate the differences between playstyles and deployment of different players.

But Kucherov is a much better skater, is infinitely more skilled, carries the puck more, and has a significantly higher team hockey IQ.

I’ve noticed that the rare occasion when you reluctantly (and briefly) describe Ovechkin’s positives, you don’t use the outrageously hyperbolic verbiage that you use to describe other players. INFINITELY???

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

He was never billed as such, and never needed to be to have a wildly successful, HOF career. It would benefit you to appreciate the differences between playstyles and deployment of different players.

I’ve noticed that the rare occasion when you reluctantly (and briefly) describe Ovechkin’s positives, you don’t use the outrageously hyperbolic verbiage that you use to describe other players. INFINITELY???

Yes, if you want. Although Kucherov's shot power is very good.

 

[Planetov]

Yes, if you want. Although Kucherov's shot power is very good.

What is this in response to?

 

[Calicaps]

I can't look away from this train-wreck of a thread. It's making me a stupider hockey fan. Send help!

 

[Ghost of Murph]

All-time leading goal scorer and will end his career at worst 3rd all-time in hits. To score more goals than any other players in history and additionally approach 4,000 hits is simply ridiculous. Not to mention many of those hits were freight-trainesque.

Kucherov is awesome, but it's preposterous to say he's > than Ovi. They are very different players who excel in different areas, but I take goals over assists, as well as a guy who has dispossessed opposing players of the puck over 3,700 times.

 

[psycat]

For peak/prime sure, career not really(unless you just cup count).

 

[le_sean]

No there’s no argument and it’s ludicrous to think there is. Maybe the person that created this thread was born in 2004 and didn’t get to witness Ovechkin’s first seasons. No forward really comes close to that type of impact other than Gretzky and Lemieux. And the fact that he’s been relevant for 20 seasons is insanity.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Kucherov is a legend himself, but with Ovechkin, we're looking at a top 20 player ever, at worst, and he's not done yet

We will have to wait at the end of Kuch's career, but right now, he's not touching that

 

[ezcreepin]

He's currently ahead of Ovechkin at the same age with significantly higher efficiency, a higher goal ceiling per season and a more complete game, yet he's not considered on the same level as McDavid, Kucherov, McKinnon, and Draisaitl.

A lot of that has to do with durability and the fact he has only had two 100 point seasons in a time where scoring has risen quite a bit. McDavid is by far the greatest offensive player we have ever seen, Kucherov is a dominant offensive force, MacKinnon is another dominant offensive force that seems to score at will when he decides it's time, and Draisaitl is Ovechkin-lite in his ability to score and consistency. Also has had two bonkers playoff runs where people started to notice him outside of the greatest offensive player in the history of the game.

Matthews would definitely break the goal record if he was durable enough, but that's one of the reasons that makes Ovechkin an all time great player. To that point as well, there's a reason why casual and hardcore fans more often than not consider Gretzky to be the best player of all time when Lemieux might've been the better player - Gretzky was more durable and was lucky health wise.

 

[crowi]

He's currently ahead of Ovechkin at the same age with significantly higher efficiency, a higher goal ceiling per season and a more complete game, yet he's not considered on the same level as McDavid, Kucherov, McKinnon, and Draisaitl.

Remember that reality part? Ovechkin is the greatest goal-scorer because of his longevity. Matthews is already having a lot of injury problems.

 

[Vikingstad]

OV was and is a machine, can't believe this is a debate. Kucherov is great but OV feels like a once in a lifetime player. The goal scoring consistency, physicality and durability is akin to what LeBron has done in the NBA

I recall watching OV take on Chara and Seidenberg in one of his playoff runs and watching that I knew no other player could match that head to head battle.

 

[MXD]

This feels like, I don't know... A Bobby Hull vs. Guy Lafleur debate, in that the players are probably closer than the final tally would suggest, but you're also wondering why the f*** is there a debate in the first place.

 

[le_sean]

OV was and is a machine, can't believe this is a debate. Kucherov is great but OV feels like a once in a lifetime player. The goal scoring consistency, physicality and durability is akin to what LeBron has done in the NBA

I recall watching OV take on Chara and Seidenberg in one of his playoff runs and watching that I knew no other player could match that head to head battle.

Ovechkin basically answered the "what if Lindros didn’t have concussion issues" discussion

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Remember that reality part? Ovechkin is the greatest goal-scorer because of his longevity. Matthews is already having a lot of injury problems.

I know. And despite the games he missed, despite the fewer shots he took, he's ahead of Ovechkin 12 years earlier. He's a better scorer than Ovechkin.

 

[crowi]

I know. And despite the games he missed, despite the fewer shots he took, he's ahead of Ovechkin 12 years earlier. He's a better scorer than Ovechkin.

Massive disagree. There's no way you'd even dare to poll that on this site alone.

 

[TheLegend27]

I can't believe you just used longevity as an argument against Ovechkin. Lol. Ovie has been the best goal scorer throughout his 20 years. He's 2nd this year per 60.

I think he’s referring to how Ovi changed his style to a pure goal scorer after 2010. Ovi pre-2010 was just a very different player, he was a puck carrier, a play driver, playmaker and played closer to how Mackinnon plays today. If Ovi maintained that playstyle until age 30 or so, there would be no Crosby and Ovi discussion. He was that good.

 

[AvroArrow]

With your argument, Ovechkin is the best player of all time. Bourque is the best defenseman of all time.

Strangely, these are the two players who have focused their game the most on shooting.

Have you ever wondered why a goal isn't valued more highly than a secondary assist?

Because it doesn't mean much.

Just look at how goal scorers are considered in different drafts. Teams prioritize playmakers and defensive players.

Ovechkin's game prevents the guys around him from scoring a lot of goals. Semin is the only one to have a 40-goal season besides Ovechkin in 21 years. The only one to have scored more than 30 goals multiple times. After that, it's just Wilson at 31 goals. Often guys with 25 goals.

Ovechkin's game prevents the guys around him from scoring many goals. Semin is the only one to have a 40-goal season besides Ovechkin in 21 years. The only one to have scored more than 30 goals multiple times. After that, it's only Wilson with 31 goals. Often guys with 25 goals.

By the end of this season, the 40-goal mark for a teammate of Kucherov should be reached nine times, and even more by the end of his career. No more 30-goal guys, no more 20-goal guys. Over 11 years instead of 21.

With Kucherov at 120 points you can have three guys with 40 goals, whereas with Ovechkin 90 points you have Ovechkin with 50 goals and the next guy with half as many.

Yes, because Kucherov has 40-goal seasons without pushing himself, playing very team-oriented.

These are the reasons why I consider Kucherov better. And then there's the fact that Ovechkin was unable to become part of a dynasty while all the other great Russian players did. Because even if Kucherov is put aside, I'm not convinced by Ovechkin's superiority over Fedorov, Datsyuk, and Malkin.

You might be the 1st guy in the history of hockey to suggest that a secondary assist = a goal

Now you can be obtuse and say hey both are worth a point on the stat sheet, but no scoring goals is much more difficult and valued way higher by pretty much everyone

Ovechkin being the greatest goal scorer of all time does not effect Washington's 2nd or 3rd line in a way where those players are unable to score goals at a high level. For his line ? Sure, but obviously when you have a talent like him who's the greatest finisher in the history of hockey, you're gonna go through him.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Massive disagree. There's no way you'd even dare to poll that on this site alone.

Don't vouch for humanity.

Matthews is ahead of Ovechkin 12 years ago, that's a fact (26 goals - probably more at the end of the season).

Matthews has a significantly higher shooting efficiency than Ovechkin, that's a fact.

The number of goals in career doesn't determine the intrinsic value of scoring ability.

Leon Draisaitl is another example. He's a better scorer than Ovechkin.

I think he's the top scorer in the league.

The number of goals Ovechkin scores in 300 shot attempts, Draisaitl scores the same in 200.

 

[JJ68]

It's difficult....like if you're a player who can consistently score 30 plus goals and record another 80 to 90 assists in the same season...that's just as valuable as being a consistent 50 goal scorer but someone who really doesn't play make nearly as much.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

You might be the 1st guy in the history of hockey to suggest that a secondary assist = a goal

Now you can be obtuse and say hey both are worth a point on the stat sheet, but no scoring goals is much more difficult and valued way higher by pretty much everyone

Ovechkin being the greatest goal scorer of all time does not effect Washington's 2nd or 3rd line in a way where those players are unable to score goals at a high level. For his line ? Sure, but obviously when you have a talent like him who's the greatest finisher in the history of hockey, you're gonna go through him.

Hockey pioneers had already understood that a goal was no more valuable than an assist. There's even the situation where goals are more likely to be caused by a player who doesn't register his name on the stats than by the goal scorer. Hockey isn't a sport made for stats.

Obviously, the more a guy shoots, the more chances he has to score. But that also means fewer opportunities for his teammates.

What matters is creating scoring opportunities. And Kucherov creates more opportunities than Ovechkin.

I'd take a lot of guys ahead of Ovechkin as the best finisher (Selanne, Matthews). Tell me Draisaitl isn't a better finisher than Ovechkin with such a gap in shooting efficiency.

He is the best of this century in this field.