Is There a Case For Kucherov > Ovechkin?

[qcal1427]

I don’t think you guys are comprehending what I’m saying here exactly, but I’ll leave you with this…

Here are adjusted playoffs points to average level of team defense faced, adjusted to Gretzky’s 1984 levels, for career (among players top 250 in actual playoff points)

Connor McDavid 2.15
Leon Draisaitl 2
Wayne Gretzky 1.97
Mario Lemieux 1.91
Bobby Orr 1.79
Nathan MacKinnon 1.77
Peter Forsberg 1.67
Mikko Rantanen 1.67
Nikita Kucherov 1.61
Joe Sakic 1.6
Sidney Crosby 1.58
Gordie Howe 1.57
Jean Beliveau 1.54
Bobby Hull 1.5
Cale Makar 1.48
Phil Esposito 1.47
Evgeni Malkin 1.46
Ryan Getzlaf 1.42
Patrick Kane 1.41
Gilbert Perreault 1.41
Brayden Point 1.4
Mark Messier 1.35
Jake Guentzel 1.35
Alex Delvecchio 1.34
Mats Sundin 1.34

No Ovechkin here at all

…

Now for best consecutive 70 games stretch

Gretzky 158.3
McDavid 156.6
Lemieux 151
Draisaitl 148.7
Howe 147.5
Esposito 145.8
Forsberg 134.6
Jagr 134.1
Kucherov 132
Crosby 131.9
Lafleur 130.4
Orr 129.7
MacKinnon 128.5
Sakic 126.6
Getzlaf 126.5
Rantanen 126
Geoffrion 125
Malkin 121.4
Beliveau 120.5
Hull 119.2
Lindsay 118.5
Bucky 116.8
Zetterberg 115.9
Bossy 114.4

You can go all the way to Yvan Cournoyer at 106.9 and Ovechkin doesn’t even show up for best 70 games stretch in the playoffs..

Infact if you take the best 70 games for goal scoring only Ovechkin ties for 18th with Zetterberg and Guentzel, and falls slightly behind Point, who is largely set up by Kucherov.

Tack on a 3rd Art Ross to this and a 7 year stretch challenging for top point producer vs. 3 and it’s not a stretch to say he’s close to peak Ovechkin. Listing their career accomplishments over and over doesn’t change this.

Yes, Kucherov is a better point-scorer than Ovechkin because assists are easier to come by than goals.

 

[qcal1427]

and outside of that 2007-10 Kucherov is a better player

And if you look at Kucherov outside 2022-25 Corey Perry or Taylor Hall are better players ...

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

5 or 10 years after Kucherov's retirement, very few people outside of the people who follow the Lightning are going to automatically remember that he had a 100 point season. It's going to be one of those "Oh shit, right, ya he did have a 100 assist season" type situation for most fans.

5 or 10 years after Ovechkin retires, literally everyone is going to be able to remember who the greatest goal scorer of all time is. On top of that, he also might be top 10 in points if he plays next year and beats Joe Sakic's numbers which by all accounts seems likely.

He's turning 32 right now and has 982 points. Let's say he ends up in in the 1400 - 1500 point range which would require another 5 - 6 years playing at a 80 - 100 point pace. He'd still have less points than Ovechkin, and would be lumped in with a bunch of different guys.

You're trying to compare someone, who statistically is going to be in the top 30 - 35 players (I'm including defense and goalies as well in this calculation), to someone who is going to break a record that nobody thought would be broken and is number 1 in that category.

When people ask "who the greatest NHL scorer is?", the answer is going to be Ovechkin.

It's almost doing a disservice to Kucherov by trying to do this.

People who don't really follow hockey will have this point of view.

Connoisseurs will remember Kucherov as the face of a dynasty that racked up appearances in the NHL Finals and his magical play.

Regular season points don't make the player. Marcel Dionne has many more points than Guy Lafleur, and that doesn't change the fact that Lafleur is better. There's the game. The two players are still contemporaries of each other, only seven years apart. Kucherov has been better than Ovechkin for 10 years in a row. Kucherov's prime is longer than Ovechkin's, higher, and more rewarded by playoff performances.

There are plenty of statistics that highlight Kucherov much more: PPG, playoffs, NHL Finals...

Ovechkin isn't the best scorer. He's the one who scored the most goals by accumulating an insane number of shots (13,000) like R. Bourque did to hold the record for defensemen. But there are other players who are better. It's just that they forced their shots less during their career. His record, in the future, will be put into perspective because most great players have a better goal efficiency than Ovechkin.

Kucherov will never surpass the legend Ovechkin. However, he has surpassed the player Ovechkin.

Two different things.

 

[wetcoast]

I know. I think you lack a sense of humour

Frankly if it was another poster I might have gotten it but you've had some interesting takes so hard to be sure.

 

[ezcreepin]

There's no question that Kucherov is the best offensive weapon Tampa has, but I think you should take into consideration the so-so that was the supporting cast was around Ovie for like half his career vs Kucherov's. Kucherov has been the beneficiary of developing around all time great players and having many legit scoring threats while Ovie has been one of two actual scoring threats the Caps have had for a lot of his career, the other being Semin. He did get two more 20 goal scorers in Oshie and Kuznetsov, but which roster would you rather have, the Caps or the Lightning? I think there is an argument to be had about which player you'd want on your team, but if you're building a team from the ground up, you always take the best goal scorer of all time vs a top 100 player. Maybe Kucherov ends up eclipsing Ovechkin in terms of value, but right now it's always Ovie.

 

[qcal1427]

Kucherov has been better than Ovechkin for 10 years in a row.

This is just 1) not true and 2) comparing Kucherov's age 21-31 seasons with Ovechkin's age 29-39 seasons.

Kucherov's prime is longer than Ovechkin's,

Wrong

higher,

Also wrong

and more rewarded by playoff performances.

Sure, but those are team awards and Ovi has not had a HoF 1c, 1d, and 1g to rely on

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

This is just 1) not true and 2) comparing Kucherov's age 21-31 seasons with Ovechkin's age 29-39 seasons.

Wrong

Also wrong

Sure, but those are team awards and Ovi has not had a HoF 1c, 1d, and 1g to rely on

Kucherov 25-32 yo is better than Ovechkin 25-32 by far

Ovechkin prime : 2005-2010
Kucherov prime : 2017-2025 (to continue)

Higher : When Ovechkin has a 100-point season by being ultra individualistic, Kucherov doesn't even push to reach 120. When Ovechkin is a playoff loser, Kucherov is a winner.

Ovechkin had Holtby, Carlson, Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Green and many others.

One thing Kucherov did better than Ovechkin: he makes his teammates better. Ovechkin never had that ability. His teammates play to put him in his role.

Every guy who plays next to Kucherov sees his stats explode. Tampa's players have changed a lot, and Kucherov never faltered because X or Y was no longer with him.

 

[ezcreepin]

People who don't really follow hockey will have this point of view.

Connoisseurs will remember Kucherov as the face of a dynasty that racked up appearances in the NHL Finals and his magical play.

Regular season points don't make the player. Marcel Dionne has many more points than Guy Lafleur, and that doesn't change the fact that Lafleur is better. There's the game. The two players are still contemporaries of each other, only seven years apart. Kucherov has been better than Ovechkin for 10 years in a row. Kucherov's prime is longer than Ovechkin's, higher, and more rewarded by playoff performances.

There are plenty of statistics that highlight Kucherov much more: PPG, playoffs, NHL Finals...

Ovechkin isn't the best scorer. He's the one who scored the most goals by accumulating an insane number of shots (13,000) like R. Bourque did to hold the record for defensemen. But there are other players who are better. It's just that they forced their shots less during their career. His record, in the future, will be put into perspective because most great players have a better goal efficiency than Ovechkin.

Kucherov will never surpass the legend Ovechkin. However, he has surpassed the player Ovechkin.

Two different things.

I think it says more about how good Ovechkin is that he has taken so many shots in his career yet still maintained a career 13% shooting percentage, in a time where 11-12% was considered to be pretty good. I don't really care that much about selective shooting, I care more about results, and Ovechkin has proved time and time and time and time again that no one rivals him in goal scoring, not to mention while playing as a power forward. Kucherov is no doubt one of the best offensive scorers I've watched, but Ovechkin is just different, regardless of ppg totals. As far as playoffs? I'm sorry dude, but this isn't the NBA. It's a team sport and everyone has to work together to go deep in the playoffs, so the talk of finals appearances or playoffs is pretty low on the list of things that matter when looking at a career. Even in that regard, Kucherov may have almost 30 more points than Ovie in the playoffs, but Ovie has almost 20 more goals in that time. I'd much rather have the guy with 20 more goals than the guy with more assists.

 

[qcal1427]

Kucherov 25-32 yo is better than Ovechkin 25-32 by far

Ovechkin prime : 2005-2010
Kucherov prime : 2017-2025 (to continue)

Kucherov's 25-32yo has been pretty similar to Ovechkin's 25-32yo and Ovechkin's 20-24yo blows Kucherov's out of the water.

Higher : When Ovechkin has a 100-point season by being ultra individualistic, Kucherov doesn't even push to reach 120.

I mean I guess it's progress we're doing this thing in comparison to a Russian player and not a Canadian?

When Ovechkin is a playoff loser, Kucherov is a winner.

Remind me which President's trophy winner got swept in the first round?

Ovechkin had Holtby, Carlson, Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Green and many others

All great players. Only one will maybe make the HoF. All of Stamkos, Hedman, and Vasilevsky are locks, and Point has an outside chance as well.

 

[Lou Sassole]

Kucherov 25-32 yo is better than Ovechkin 25-32 by far

Ovechkin prime : 2005-2010
Kucherov prime : 2017-2025 (to continue)

Higher : When Ovechkin has a 100-point season by being ultra individualistic, Kucherov doesn't even push to reach 120. When Ovechkin is a playoff loser, Kucherov is a winner.

Ovechkin had Holtby, Carlson, Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Green and many others.

One thing Kucherov did better than Ovechkin: he makes his teammates better. Ovechkin never had that ability. His teammates play to put him in his role.

Every guy who plays next to Kucherov sees his stats explode. Tampa's players have changed a lot, and Kucherov never faltered because X or Y was no longer with him.

Just ignore that he turned Chris f***ing Clark into a 30 goal scorer.

 

[Lou Sassole]

Kucherov's 25-32yo has been pretty similar to Ovechkin's 25-32yo and Ovechkin's 20-24yo blows Kucherov's out of the water.


I mean I guess it's progress we're doing this thing in comparison to a Russian player and not a Canadian?

Remind me which President's trophy winner got swept in the first round?

All great players. Only one will maybe make the HoF. All of Stamkos, Hedman, and Vasilevsky are locks, and Point has an outside chance as well.

He had a PPG St. Louis as a rookie too.

 

[qcal1427]

He had a PPG St. Louis as a rookie too.

Hey Dainus Zubrus and Jeff Halperin weren't too bad!

 

[qcal1427]

Can't believe too no one has brought up that Kucherov's two Cups are Mickey Mouse COVID wins ...

 

[hamzarocks]

Art Ross for playmakers is equivalent to the Rocket for goal scorers. Ovechkin has lead the league in goals 9 times, Kucherov has lead the league in assists twice (probably will be three after this year).

No shit he hasn't become a better player. His 2005-2010 are much better than you're claiming, and his post 2010 career was still so good that it's pretty much on par with everything Kucherov has done in Kucherov's entire career.

Once again, talk to me when Kucherov wins back-to-back Harts or the Lindsay three years in a row.

Kucherov is a great player, probably top 100 all-time. He belongs in Malkin/Kane conversations, not Ovechkin/Crosby ones.

No its not the rocket is a 5th rate award

Ross, Hart, Lindsay and Smythe clear the rocket

Its why OV is the GOAT goal scorer but a ~89 pt player for his career and not in majority of peoples top 7/8 players listings

He could not produce/generate offense for his team in the reg season and playoffs like Kucherov has.

OV's first 5 years were viable for #1 in the league after that he was hardly top 5 ever outside of 2013 and 2015 (usually fringe top 10) despite winning most rockets

 

[hamzarocks]

Yes, Kucherov is a better point-scorer than Ovechkin because assists are easier to come by than goals.

Its not that assist are easier its OV sucked at offense and was a limited and flawed player against a Kucherov, Mackinnon, Draisaitl, Crosby, Mcdavid etc type comparison for his 2011 onwards version of himself.

He was able to get 55Gs and 55As and be a ross leader/heavy challanger for his first 4 of 5 seasons in the NHL. After that he was never hardly threat for 50-60Assists or for the ross race outside of maybe 2015

Its why his production died come palyoffs after his fall off. He went from a 117 pt player per 82 from 2008-2010 playoffs to a 67 pt player per 82 from 2011-now in the playoffs with this including an amazing conn smythe run.

OV 2011-now is not a top 15 player all time.

OV if he had extended his first 5 years another 5 years is #2/3 all time even if that comes at cost of a career 60/70 goals but an additional 200+ assists.

OV lacks longevity as a top 3 player league wide who could challange for the ross/hart/lindsay

Crosby lacks peak + 2/3 prime seasons where he won major awards. His injuries stopped that from happening in 2011-2013 period but his offensive game choking and falling off is his fault and stopped him from having 2/3 major award seasons during 2015-2018 period.

Those reasons give Kucherov a shot at passing both all time if he adds ross # 3, hart #2, lindsay #2 this year and then has 5 more top 5 player seasons with 1 more year of all those 3 awards

 

[Lou Sassole]

Its not that assist are easier its OV sucked at offense and was a limited and flawed player against a Kucherov, Mackinnon, Draisaitl, Crosby, Mcdavid etc type comparison for his 2011 onwards version of himself

Its why his production died come palyoffs after his fall off. He went from a 117 pt player per 82 from 2008-2010 playoffs to a 67 pt player per 82 from 2011-now in the playoffs with this including an amazing conn smythe run.

OV 2011-now is not a top 15 player all time

2018 Ovie along with Wilson so physically dominated Kucherov and the Lightning in the 2018 playoffs, that they wilted. I guess the 155 point Yzerman was the best version of him too.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

I think it says more about how good Ovechkin is that he has taken so many shots in his career yet still maintained a career 13% shooting percentage, in a time where 11-12% was considered to be pretty good. I don't really care that much about selective shooting, I care more about results, and Ovechkin has proved time and time and time and time again that no one rivals him in goal scoring, not to mention while playing as a power forward. Kucherov is no doubt one of the best offensive scorers I've watched, but Ovechkin is just different, regardless of ppg totals. As far as playoffs? I'm sorry dude, but this isn't the NBA. It's a team sport and everyone has to work together to go deep in the playoffs, so the talk of finals appearances or playoffs is pretty low on the list of things that matter when looking at a career. Even in that regard, Kucherov may have almost 30 more points than Ovie in the playoffs, but Ovie has almost 20 more goals in that time. I'd much rather have the guy with 20 more goals than the guy with more assists.

I'm almost convinced that if guys like McDavid, Draisaitl, Matthews, Jagr, or Selanne had the same obsession as Ovechkin, they could have had careers with 1,000 regular-season goals. And I'm not even talking about those who played in the '80s.

The playoffs count more than the regular season, and not just in the NBA. The NFL and MLB are the same thing. Plus, your argument is flawed because Kucherov is very close to Ovechkin's goal tally with a good part of his career ahead of him, even though that's not even his role on the ice.

Tampa Bay scores more goals with Kucherov than Washington with Ovechkin. It doesn't matter who scores, the important thing is to help win. And Kucherov helps his team more. In any case, Tampa has had more success with Kucherov than Washington with Ovechkin, by far. So there's no debate.

With the Ovimaniacs, it's always the same thing: masturbating over a regular-season goal record that didn't do much for Washington and that doesn't do much for hockey. It's just a nice anecdote.

 

[Herregud]

The Ovechkin hate is wild.

 

[hamzarocks]

2018 Ovie along with Wilson so physically dominated Kucherov and the Lightning in the 2018 playoffs, that they wilted. I guess the 155 point Yzerman was the best version of him too.

OV has choked hard in the playoffs before 2018 and wilted too. He got over the hump in 2018. Kucherov since that series led the playoffs 2X in scoring winning B2B cups and made another finals (3X straight) where he was 4th in playoffs in pts

Over a 120+ game sample size he is a 67 pt player in the playoffs post falloff from 2011 onwards

Kucherov has dominated teams and made them wilt in his 2 cup + 3 final leading runs.

The caps never got back to that level otherwise they would have had to play prime Kucherov from 2020-2022 in the playoffs.

Kucherov is the best playoff performing winger from the lockout onwards era. He isnt someone OV can beat in the playoffs

 

[qcal1427]

I'm almost convinced that if guys like McDavid, Draisaitl, Matthews, Jagr, or Selanne had the same obsession as Ovechkin, they could have had careers with 1,000 regular-season goals. And I'm not even talking about those who played in the '80s.

And if my aunt had balls ...

Tampa Bay scores more goals with Kucherov than Washington with Ovechkin. It doesn't matter who scores, the important thing is to help win.

It does matter who scores them, on every goal only one player can record the goal while two can record an assist. There are less goals than there are assists, it is more impressive to score a goal than record an assist because of this.

And Kucherov helps his team more. In any case, Tampa has had more success with Kucherov than Washington with Ovechkin, by far. So there's no debate.

Team success != individual player greatness.

With the Ovimaniacs, it's always the same thing: masturbating over a regular-season goal record that didn't do much for Washington and that doesn't do much for hockey. It's just a nice anecdote.

Yea man for sure Ovi's goals definitely didn't do anything for Washington. Certainly didn't turn it into a hockey market and one of the best teams of the cap era.

 

[qcal1427]

OV has choked hard in the playoffs before 2018 and wilted too. He got over the hump in 2018. Kucherov since that series led the playoffs 2X in scoring winning B2B cups and made another finals (3X straight) where he was 4th in playoffs in pts

Over a 120+ game sample size he is a 67 pt player in the playoffs post falloff from 2011 onwards

Kucherov has dominated teams and made them wilt in his 2 cup + 3 final leading runs.

The caps never got back to that level otherwise they would have had to play prime Kucherov from 2020-2022 in the playoffs.

Kucherov is the best playoff performing winger from the lockout onwards era. He isnt someone OV can beat in the playoffs

2018 ECF, the one time they've played head-to-head in the playoffs:
"Prime" Nikita Kucherov - 1 goal, 4 assists, no points getting shut out in the last two games
"Old Man" Alex Ovechkin - 4 goals, 3 assists, series-winning goal

Kucherov wasn't the best player on either of Tampa's two (Mickey Mouse COVID) Cup wins. He's had his share of embarrassing performances too, including putting up only two points when the PT winning Lightning got swept by CBJ.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

Kucherov's 25-32yo has been pretty similar to Ovechkin's 25-32yo and Ovechkin's 20-24yo blows Kucherov's out of the water.


I mean I guess it's progress we're doing this thing in comparison to a Russian player and not a Canadian?

Remind me which President's trophy winner got swept in the first round?

All great players. Only one will maybe make the HoF. All of Stamkos, Hedman, and Vasilevsky are locks, and Point has an outside chance as well.

120 points and playoff success is not really the same as 90 points and playoff failures.
120 points and playoff success isn't really the same as 90 points and playoff failure.

Carlson, Backstrom is definitely HOF.

Washington has often had very solid teams. This year alone is just one example among many.

Yeah, some very great players... dumped by Kucherov in recent years.

 

[Caps8112]

I'm almost convinced that if guys like McDavid, Draisaitl, Matthews, Jagr, or Selanne had the same obsession as Ovechkin, they could have had careers with 1,000 regular-season goals. And I'm not even talking about those who played in the '80s.

The playoffs count more than the regular season, and not just in the NBA. The NFL and MLB are the same thing. Plus, your argument is flawed because Kucherov is very close to Ovechkin's goal tally with a good part of his career ahead of him, even though that's not even his role on the ice.

Tampa Bay scores more goals with Kucherov than Washington with Ovechkin. It doesn't matter who scores, the important thing is to help win. And Kucherov helps his team more. In any case, Tampa has had more success with Kucherov than Washington with Ovechkin, by far. So there's no debate.

With the Ovimaniacs, it's always the same thing: masturbating over a regular-season goal record that didn't do much for Washington and that doesn't do much for hockey. It's just a nice anecdote.

you dont think NHL GMs would convert any of those players to 1000 goal scorers if they could? The reason you dont see many players like Ovi, Matthews, Bossy is that they are very rare. 100 pt, 70 plus assists centers are way more common. If an NHL GM who wants to win could simply pick any one of their top guys and say I need you to do what Ovi does, you dont think they would do it? Your third paragraph makes the previous posters point that Tampa has some ridiculously loaded teams compared to Washington. Even if you name Ovis fringe HOF teammates, none of them are goal scorers. Kuch has had that luxury of additional goal scoring teammates his entire career and only recently has become the actual focal point of tampa.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

And if my aunt had balls ...

It does matter who scores them, on every goal only one player can record the goal while two can record an assist. There are less goals than there are assists, it is more impressive to score a goal than record an assist because of this.

Team success != individual player greatness.

Yea man for sure Ovi's goals definitely didn't do anything for Washington. Certainly didn't turn it into a hockey market and one of the best teams of the cap era.

The proof is that Matthews has more goals than Ovechkin did at his age while shooting much less. He is just a more complete player and less shot-oriented.
What would hockey be like if every player started with the mentality of scoring more goals than their teammates: nothing.
It's always the same with the Ovimaniacs: the cult of individualism.

I prefer team players.

Ovechkin's 20 years have only yielded one title for his sole appearance in the final top 4.

Not crazy.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

you dont think NHL GMs would convert any of those players to 1000 goal scorers if they could? The reason you dont see many players like Ovi, Matthews, Bossy is that they are very rare. 100 pt, 70 plus assists centers are way more common. If an NHL GM who wants to win could simply pick any one of their top guys and say I need you to do what Ovi does, you dont think they would do it? Your third paragraph makes the previous posters point that Tampa has some ridiculously loaded teams compared to Washington. Even if you name Ovis fringe HOF teammates, none of them are goal scorers. Kuch has had that luxury of additional goal scoring teammates his entire career and only recently has become the actual focal point of tampa.

GMs' mission is to help their team win. Not to steer the game toward a record.

McDavid, Draisaitl, and Matthews have already proven they can rack up 50-plus goal seasons if they want to make it a goal.

Only these guys are capable of more than Ovechkin.

Ovechkin focused on this record because he can't make his teammates play and be a playmaker.

Whereas McDavid, Draisaitl, and Matthews are capable of both.

Jagr didn't care about beating Gretzky. It's a nice record, but it's anecdotal. Not a career goal.