Is There a Case For Kucherov > Ovechkin?

[Nathaniel]

If your giving Crosby a 4th Smythe run for 2016 then Kucherov gets a 4th for 2015 as well as he had 22 in 26 which was similar play and production as Crosbys 2016 playoffs

Kucherov has 17 in 17, 19 in 17, and 7 in 5 to match Crosby for 2010, 2013, and 2022

They again both produce at exact same rate/very close up to their age 31 year in playoffs (both at 93 per 82 but Kucherov has his age 31 playoffs left to playout this season)

How can I not give crosby a 4th smythe level run in 2016 when he literally won the award lol? Crosby had a resurgence in 2022 with 10 in 6. But yes crosbys 30s in the playoffs leave room for kucherov to do some damage in comparison.

 

[TheLegend27]

Lol no where near Crosby. 20 ppg+ seasons along with all his hardware

Kucherov already has 5 100pt seasons only one less than Crosby. He’s also a better playoff performer. If he plays 400 more games at a PPG or higher pace it can be a worthy discussion.

 

[Nathaniel]

Kucherov already has 5 100pt seasons only one less than Crosby. He’s also a better playoff performer. If he plays 400 more games at a PPG or higher pace it can be a worthy discussion.

Kucherov is not a better playoff performer. They are very comparable at the most for kucherov. Right now at least. Kucherov has 7 ppg seasons in contrast to crosbys 20. Also is 5 top 10 scoring finishes behind. All this with crosby having his peak eradicated by injury. Without that well yeah lol.....

 

[Nathaniel]

Kucherov can surpass ovechkin more easy than he can pass Crosby that is certain. Ovechkin was routinely falling out of the top 10 in scoring post age 24. And has hit 90 points once from age 25-38. Was also routinely falling under a ppg during seasons. Kucherov has a much better playoff career even with ovechkins one hit wonder smythe. Kucherov is also the better international player

 

[authentic]

Kucherov already has 5 100pt seasons only one less than Crosby. He’s also a better playoff performer. If he plays 400 more games at a PPG or higher pace it can be a worthy discussion.

Better is a stretch, but I’ll leave ya with this…

Adjusted career points per game (average regular season GA of teams faced in the playoffs adjusted to Gretzky’s 1984 levels), among players in the top 250 in actual playoff points.

Connor McDavid 2.15
Leon Draisaitl 2
Wayne Gretzky 1.97
Mario Lemieux 1.91
Bobby Orr 1.79
Nathan MacKinnon 1.77
Peter Forsberg 1.67
Mikko Rantanen 1.67
Nikita Kucherov 1.61
Joe Sakic 1.6
Sidney Crosby 1.58
Gordie Howe 1.57
Jean Beliveau 1.54
Bobby Hull 1.5
Cale Makar 1.48
Phil Esposito 1.47
Evgeni Malkin 1.46
Ryan Getzlaf 1.42
Patrick Kane 1.41
Gilbert Perreault 1.41
Brayden Point 1.4
Mark Messier 1.35
Jake Guentzel 1.35
Alex Delvecchio 1.34
Mats Sundin 1.34

Then there’s best consecutive 70 games (so basically McDavid’s entire playoff career so far against the best 70 games of Gretzky!), Kucherov looks great here and in both him and Crosby are incredibly close, but then you obviously have Crosby playing center with more defensive responsibilities, worse wingers and linemates in general, and it’s tough to claim Kucherov has been better really…

Gretzky 158.3
McDavid 156.6
Lemieux 151
Draisaitl 148.7
Howe 147.5
Esposito 145.8
Forsberg 134.6
Jagr 134.1
Kucherov 132
Crosby 131.9
Lafleur 130.4
Orr 129.7
MacKinnon 128.5

Suffice to say Kucherov has established himself as an all-time great, much better than I thought as it wasn’t long ago I had Kane ahead.

 

[authentic]

^ That’s courtesy of MadLuke btw, he did all the work crunching those numbers, check it out in the history forum.

 

[atlanticobserver]

Better is a stretch, but I’ll leave ya with this…

Adjusted career points per game (average regular season GA of teams faced in the playoffs adjusted to Gretzky’s 1984 levels), among players in the top 250 in actual playoff points.

Connor McDavid 2.15
Leon Draisaitl 2
Wayne Gretzky 1.97
Mario Lemieux 1.91
Bobby Orr 1.79
Nathan MacKinnon 1.77
Peter Forsberg 1.67
Mikko Rantanen 1.67
Nikita Kucherov 1.61
Joe Sakic 1.6
Sidney Crosby 1.58
Gordie Howe 1.57
Jean Beliveau 1.54
Bobby Hull 1.5
Cale Makar 1.48
Phil Esposito 1.47
Evgeni Malkin 1.46
Ryan Getzlaf 1.42
Patrick Kane 1.41
Gilbert Perreault 1.41
Brayden Point 1.4
Mark Messier 1.35
Jake Guentzel 1.35
Alex Delvecchio 1.34
Mats Sundin 1.34

Then there’s best consecutive 70 games (so basically McDavid’s entire playoff career so far against the best 70 games of Gretzky!), Kucherov looks great here and in both him and Crosby are incredibly close, but then you obviously have Crosby playing center with more defensive responsibilities, worse wingers and linemates in general, and it’s tough to claim Kucherov has been better really…

Gretzky 158.3
McDavid 156.6
Lemieux 151
Draisaitl 148.7
Howe 147.5
Esposito 145.8
Forsberg 134.6
Jagr 134.1
Kucherov 132
Crosby 131.9
Lafleur 130.4
Orr 129.7
MacKinnon 128.5

Suffice to say Kucherov has established himself as an all-time great, much better than I thought as it wasn’t long ago I had Kane ahead.

Doesn't really apply to Crosby, but I'm not as impressed by McDavid/Draisaitl/MacKinnon's per games because they didn't have to play in the later rounds as often as Kucherov/Crosby when the teams are typically better and the fatigue level is definitely higher. Also much smaller sample size for most of them.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Kucherov could easily have won the Smythe either of those Cup years. He topped Crosby's best playoff run points wise TWICE

Interestingly, he led all players in Conn Smythe votes over those two years combined. An argument can be made that he was Tampa Bay's most valuable player overall, even if he wasn't necessarily the most valuable in either playoff run on a standalone basis.

 

[Montreal Shadow]

With another Hart + Ross this season and a couple of other Hart top 5 finishes, yes.

Realistically, Kucherov has been miles better in the playoffs and his style of play will be favorable to him in his twilight years.

Ovechkin has aged surprisingly well for a man with his style of play though. He can still pot 40 goals at almost the same age.

 

[pi314]

I see Ovechkin as comically overrated.

He’s Brett Hull with a body check and some extra flash.

I really enjoyed watching Brett too but he was also a very flawed player.

I have gotten a chance to see lots of Lidstrom and Ovechkin play.

If you could clone both guys and build a team of clones, the Lidstrom team would win 82 games in a row.

A 200 foot monster with no weakness vs a guy floating by the face off circle waiting for a one timer.

Wouldn’t even be close.

And yet most people will rank Ovechkin higher when it’s all said and done.

Winning is what ultimately matters.

 

[wetcoast]

Kucherov already has 5 100pt seasons only one less than Crosby. He’s also a better playoff performer. If he plays 400 more games at a PPG or higher pace it can be a worthy discussion.

Crosby has 13 seasons with 91+ adjusted points, Kuch has 7 with 93+ points.

That's quite the difference there.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I see Ovechkin as comically overrated.

Thanks for sparing everyone else from having to read the rest of your post.

 

[qcal1427]

Whenever anyone asks "could [player not named Connor McDavid] be better all-time than Ovechkin/Crosby?" the answer is a resounding no

Kucherov is a no-doubt HoFer and one of the best players of his generation. Ovi/Crosby/McDavid are so far ahead of every other player from the last 20 years it's truly not even worth discussing.

 

[authentic]

Doesn't really apply to Crosby, but I'm not as impressed by McDavid/Draisaitl/MacKinnon's per games because they didn't have to play in the later rounds as often as Kucherov/Crosby when the teams are typically better and the fatigue level is definitely higher. Also much smaller sample size for most of them.

McDavid still has the highest adjusted playoff points run of all-time (by a margin of 10), with 59 in 25 games. Compared to Gretzky with 47 in 18. So that’s going to the finals and playing a 7 game series more worth of games.

Trust me when I say there’s not really any way to slice it that McDavid’s peak so far in the playoffs isn’t the best of the best, I mean, I remember thinking “that’s the best player ever” beginning in the 2022 playoffs.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Wasn't Crosby 29.5 when he hit 1000 points...and he started at 18.

Kucherov started at 20...so being 2 years behind Crosby's pace would make sense...

Ovechkin was born in September 1985 and hit 1,000 points in January 2017 at the age of 31.5.

The argument you're making doesn't really make sense. I think only McDavid has gotten to 1,000 well before 30 in recent memory. No one is saying kucherov is better than McDavid.

Believe it or not, hockey players age.

Like when they get over 35, their offensive numbers drops off pretty significantly in most cases. Not sure you're aware of that?

So being a late-bloomer, and starting 2 years late is massively detrimental to making a case as an all-timer.
That said I'd rank Kuch right up there with one of my all-time favorite players Guy Lafleur.


But Ovechkin is soon to be #1 in Goals, and #10 in points.
Crosby is going to be pushing for #4 all-time in points.

Freakin love Kuch, but he's nearing the end of the runway. He's not putting up another 700-800 points to enter the conversation.

 

[pi314]

Thanks for sparing everyone else from having to read the rest of your post.

Tell me then.

All those goals.

So little winning.

Why is that?

(This is where you blame the team and not the guy who coughs up the puck in game 7... because hurr durr moar goals.)

 

[zenator]

I think Kucherov has been more impactful yearly than Ovechkin, and creates more offense. I'm not knocking Ovie, he is a great goal scorer, 2nd to only Mario Lemieux in NHL history. I mean this in a year to year comparison. Ovechkin has been better overall because of his incredible longevity.

It's like Mike Bossy vs. Bryan Trottier. Bossy the better scorer, but Trottier more overall impact. (I'm not saying Kucherov is very good defensively like Trottier)

A better statement would be Crosby > Ovechkin, as he matches him with incredible longevity. Centre > Winger in impact. And Cros is more multidimensional than Ovie. Old Cros is still at the top of the NHL in 5 on 5 scoring.

 

[gtrower]

This I can agree on

He needs another 5 years of this play.

For OV probably another 3 years.

Is it >50% chance to pass Crosby, no not right now.

But no one would have thought an unathletic looking 2nd rounder from Russia in 2011 could be at this pt so deep into his career to challange 2 top 10 players ever even if at a distance as of 2025

Again, in terms of regular season play / awards he’s got longer to go to catch Ovi’s dominance than he does Crosby. Crosby’s resume is playoff team performance driven. Kucherov’s probability of catching Crosby is minimal but possible if he say - triples his trophy output (not likely to happen). His probability of catching Ovi is essentially zero.

 

[kugelbahn]

I think Kucherov has been more impactful yearly than Ovechkin, and creates more offense. I'm not knocking Ovie, he is a great goal scorer, 2nd to only Mario Lemieux in NHL history. I mean this in a year to year comparison. Ovechkin has been better overall because of his incredible longevity.

It's like Mike Bossy vs. Bryan Trottier. Bossy the better scorer, but Trottier more overall impact. (I'm not saying Kucherov is very good defensively like Trottier)

A better statement would be Crosby > Ovechkin, as he matches him with incredible longevity. Centre > Winger in impact. And Cros is more multidimensional than Ovie. Old Cros is still at the top of the NHL in 5 on 5 scoring.

Old Cros has longevity, but he appears only once in 8 yrs on top-10 ppg list (favorite stat of Crosby fans). Kind of hard to spot actually.
hockey-reference.com

 

[Riseonfire]

No, I would have to be very very drunk to entertain the argument.

 

[gtrower]

Kucherov already has 5 100pt seasons only one less than Crosby. He’s also a better playoff performer. If he plays 400 more games at a PPG or higher pace it can be a worthy discussion.

They played primes in different scoring eras lol. I feel like Ovi/Crosby having sustained success for two decades is somehow hurting their legacies in the eyes of these younger fans. Too many people are looking at Kucherov now and comparing him to Crosby/Ovi now.

Kucherov is an amazing player. He belongs nowhere near a discussion of either of these players. If you have to assume that he wins “multiple more harts and Ross’s” in your comparison then there is no comparison.

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills here.

 

[Ignatius]

He has no case for hockey‘s Mt Rushmore.

What about Mount Russiamore?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Tell me then.

All those goals.

So little winning.

Why is that?

(This is where you blame the team and not the guy who coughs up the puck in game 7... because hurr durr moar goals.)

Well, you're just wrong for one. The Caps have had one of the best records since Ovechkin came into the League, fueled heavily by his goal scoring.

They have only won the Cup because it's a 30-32 team league with a salary hard cap and it takes a full team effort to win, which is why all the best players in the game presently range from 0-3 Cups despite being eligible to win every year.

Looked through points 2005-06 to present

Crosby: 3
Ovechkin: 1
Malkin: 3
Kane: 3
Kopitar: 2
Stamkos: 2
Thornton: 0
Giroux: 0
Tavares: 0
McDavid: 0
Pavelski: 0
Backstrom: 1
E. Staal: 1
Getzlaf: 1
MacKinnon: 1
Bergeron: 1
Kessel: 3
Kucherov: 2
Marchand: 1
Benn: 0
Draisaitl: 0
Wheeler: 0
Perry: 1
H. Sedin: 0
Spezza: 0
Burns: 0
D. Sedin: 0
Parise: 0
Toews: 3
Duchene: 0
Zetterberg: 1
Marleau: 0
Karlsson: 0
Panarin: 0
Carter: 2
Stastny: 0
O'Reilly: 1
Pastrnak: 0
Seguin: 1
Voracek: 0
Iginla: 0
Schiefele: 0
Vanek: 0
Krejci: 1
Hedman: 2
Perron: 1
Huberdeau: 0
Barkov: 1
St. Louis: 1
Letang: 3

Perhaps you just have unrealistic standards about how much winning a player is supposed to be doing or how much an individual player influences winning the Cup. Seems like you a problem.

 

[TheLegend27]

Crosby and Ovi fans uniting . you love to see it.

 

[Shroud of Orrin]

"I'll say one thing, Kuch is an alien set up man on the PP" - Steven Stamkos