Olympics: Is Russia over rated as a hockey power

[The Bad Guy*]

Having said that, given Canada's talent, they really should be dominating tournaments and not squeaking by in games like vs Latvia.

You could also say given Russias talent they shouldn't be bowing out in a must win game to a Finland missing tons of it's best players.

Canada is winning..........................Russia is not.

Big difference.

Oh, and by the way, Canada did in fact dominate the Sochi tournament. You don't need to win games 20-0 to dominate.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Russia is a hockey power, to me it is silly to even question that.

But to me it is also silly to say you cannot drop them from the higher echelon in rankings because the olympics are single game elimination formats. You can cut some slack for the occasional failure, it's understandable.

But 3 in a row with one of them being at home to boot?

You can't hide behind that single game stuff forever. Results matter.

is it though? you said yourself results matter how long can a team be called a hockey power when not only do they not win but they don't even medal. I think it's VERY fair to question their status as a hockey power you said yourself results matter and the results haven't been good.

Maybe that changes in 2016 at the world cup but until then questions need to be asked.

Maybe they need a hockey summit like we had.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

is it though? you said yourself results matter how long can a team be called a hockey when not only do they not win but they don't even medal. I think it's VERY fair to question their status as a hockey power you said yourself results matter and the results haven't been good.

Maybe that changes in 2016 at the world cup but until then questions need to be asked.

Maybe they need a hockey summit like we had.

Yes they are, they still develop a good deal of world class talent, win WHC's and WJC's. They are still one of the top powers, but their senior best on best results have dragged their historical co-number one with Canada or 2 behind Canada rating down.

And yes, I agree they could use a hockey summit.

 

[FiLe]

So what is the argument then?

We should rank teams according to how snazzy their uniforms are?

Russia has no medals to show for the last 3 olympics with one of those tournaments being at home, are we saying it is wrong to drop their ranking as a hockey power?

How long can a team hide behind single game elimination formats to justify a higher then results earned ranking?

That's not how sports work.

I thought this thread was about whether Russia is a force or not. Not about arbitrary number rankings.

There is no better way to seed teams than their performance in actual tournaments, true. But if we go this way, I could come up with a plenty of good arguments why the WHCs should count, too...

But to keep you kids in good spirits, let's not go there. Based on their results, you could say Russia somewhere between #2 and #6 in the world. But again, that is not the question. The question is whether Russia is a hockey power or not. And to answer that question, we should determine how close a gap it is between them and the number #1... and whatever teams one chooses to place between 'em.

Being #6 in the world does not mean they are overrated, if there is no major difference between ranks 2 to 6. I'm not saying whether there is or not, but I am saying that one olympic QF every 4th year is not much of a metric to determine that.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

I thought this thread was about whether Russia is a force or not. Not about arbitrary number rankings.

There is no better way to seed teams than their performance in actual tournaments, true. But if we go this way, I could come up with a plenty of good arguments why the WHCs should count, too...

But to keep you kids in good spirits, let's not go there. Based on their results, you could say Russia somewhere between #2 and #6 in the world. But again, that is not the question. The question is whether Russia is a hockey power or not. And to answer that question, we should determine how close a gap it is between them and the number #1... and whatever teams one chooses to place between 'em.

Being #6 in the world does not mean they are overrated, if there is no major difference between ranks 2 to 6. I'm not saying whether there is or not, but I am saying that one olympic QF every 4th year is not much of a metric to determine that.

No, the question was whether they are overrated as a hockey power.

My point is that they are still a power, but not as high as they once were. Rankings are needed for that.

The kid has spoken.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Yes they are, they still develop a good deal of world class talent, win WHC's and WJC's. They are still one of the top powers, but their senior best on best results have dragged their historical co-number one with Canada or 2 behind Canada rating down.

And yes, I agree they could use a hockey summit.

And now I see where we differ you bring up the WHC like it means something where to me if it's not best on best it means nothing.

To me a hockey power is a team in the top 5 so

Canada
USA
sweden
Finland
Czech Republic

Russia is 6th. Now it wouldn't take much to get them in my top 5 even a bronze at the world cup would probably do it but if they don't medal in that boy they got problems.

 

[FiLe]

Yes, the question was whether they are still a hockey power.

My point is that they are, but not as high as they once were. Rankings are needed for that.

Indeed. However, there still seems to be no way to rank teams reliably since olympics and other best-on-best are too few and far between and some folks refuse to consider the WHCs.

But no matter how reliable different metrics are, there is one thing I must wonder... even if they've come down from being #1-2 in the world to being around #3-6, why do people automatically assume that they've declined and are therefore "overrated"? Perhaps it's that Russia's level has not declined one bit. It might as well be the other countries that have caught up.

Simply put: While there may be differences in vigor between the world's hockey powers, they are so negligible that they can't be reliably measured. Which means we can bicker back and forth all day, but never arrive to any kind of conclusion.

I've no horse in this race and couldn't honestly care less how countries from #1 to #6 are ranked since any of them can beat any other on any given night. The OP however seemed to argue that Russia is not where they used to be based on two lost olympic quarterfinals against opponents more or less on their own level. Perhaps it is so that these results are indicators of Russia's hockey vigor. Or not. But they are hardly conclusive evidence in itself. Because, sadly, there is none due to obvious lack of samples.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Indeed. However, there still seems to be no way to rank teams reliably since olympics and other best-on-best are too few and far between and some folks refuse to consider the WHCs.

But no matter how reliable different metrics are, there is one thing I must wonder... even if they've come down from being #1-2 in the world to being around #3-6, why do people automatically assume that they've declined and are therefore "overrated"? Perhaps it's that Russia's level has not declined one bit. It might as well be the other countries that have caught up.

Simply put: While there may be differences in vigor between the world's hockey powers, they are so negligible that they can't be reliably measured. Which means we can bicker back and forth all day, but never arrive to any kind of conclusion.

I've no horse in this race and couldn't honestly care less how countries from #1 to #6 are ranked since any of them can beat any other on any given night. The OP however seemed to argue that Russia is not where they used to be based on two lost olympic quarterfinals against opponents more or less on their own level. Perhaps it is so that these results are indicators of Russia's hockey vigor. Or not. But they are hardly conclusive evidence in itself. Because, sadly, there is none due to obvious lack of samples.

What if the world cup becomes a regular thing? then we have a best on best every 2 years sometimes falling in the same year would THAT be enough for you?

 

[FiLe]

What if the world cup becomes a regular thing? then we have a best on best every 2 years sometimes falling in the same year would THAT be enough for you?

I can tell you this: Doubling the amount of potential samples would certainly not be a bad thing.

 

[connellc]

People act as though the sample size of these single game elimination tournaments are small. I'd tend to agree that single game eliminations aren't the best way to determine who is best, but everyone is measured by the same standard.

In addition to this, correct me if I'm wrong, but Russia hasn't won a TRUE best on best tournament since 1981, right? 1984, 1987,1991 (they should get a pass here),1996, 2004 Canada/World cup were all losses. 1998,2002,2006,2010,2014. That's TEN tournaments and for one reason or another, they haven't been able to win. Russian fans can give all the excuses in the books, but 5 were sanctioned by the NHL, 5 by IIHF. Referee bias cannot be used for all of them. In addition to this, 3 have been on big ice and one on their own home soil.

World championships are good, but let's be honest here: the rosters just aren't up to par. I guarantee Russian players would give up 3 world championship gold for one Olympic gold in a heartbeat. But success is success and it's certainly worth something.

To the heart of the issue, their defense has had major problems the last few years. Top 6 forwards has always been scary, but they are getting a bit long in the tooth and I'm not seeing too many generational players in the pipeline. Goaltending is actually keeping up fairly well and it could be argued that it has more depth than Canada.

Failure for coaches to adapt is another problem. I'm not seeing too much sandpaper in their game (blocked shots, hits etc) and teams need that in a best on best.

Maybe it's time to bring a non-Russian coach to he team? I think that may actually do wonders. It's worth a try for sure.

At the end of the day, as a Canadian fan I was pretty scared of them during the 2010 Olympics. 2014, not so much but with that type of firepower, their PP can kill you. The last decade though the Swiss/Finland teams, as a team, scare me more than the Russians.

 

[FiLe]

People act as though the sample size of these single game elimination tournaments are small. I'd tend to agree that single game eliminations aren't the best way to determine who is best, but everyone is measured by the same standard.

In addition to this, correct me if I'm wrong, but Russia hasn't won a TRUE best on best tournament since 1981, right? 1984, 1987,1991 (they should get a pass here),1996, 2004 Canada/World cup were all losses. 1998,2002,2006,2010,2014. That's TEN tournaments and for one reason or another, they haven't been able to win. Russian fans can give all the excuses in the books, but 5 were sanctioned by the NHL, 5 by IIHF. Referee bias cannot be used for all of them. In addition to this, 3 have been on big ice and one on their own home soil.

This brings up an interesting factor we haven't actually discussed yet. Has Russia declined as compared to... since when?

I assumed that the argument was since last time they made it to the top 4 (in 2006) or medaled (in 2002) - to which I consider the sample size quite inadequate.

But if the issue is, as you seem to imply, their declination since the heyday of the Soviet Union in the 70s... to which I have just one thing to say: Duh.

 

[connellc]

This brings up an interesting factor we haven't actually discussed yet. Has Russia declined as compared to... since when?

I assumed that the argument was since last time they made it to the top 4 (in 2006) or medaled (in 2002) - to which I consider the sample size quite inadequate.

But if the issue is, as you seem to imply, their declination since the heyday of the Soviet Union in the 70s... to which I have just one thing to say: Duh.

No matter how you slice it, they haven't had success in over 3 decades in a best on best tournament. It's safe to say that based on those results they ARE an over-rated hockey power, no question. So I'm not quite sure what you're arguing?

 

[FiLe]

No matter how you slice it, they haven't had success in over 3 decades in a best on best tournament. It's safe to say that based on those results they ARE an over-rated hockey power, no question. So I'm not quite sure what you're arguing?

I wasn't aware they have, over the past 30 years or so, been called as good as Canada. If they have, then they've been overrated, sure. And yeah, every once in a while you may run into a homer or some other loon who likes to consider that, but the general consensus? Nah.

However, they have been considered one of Canada's closest challengers. And how many times does one have to win to be considered a challenger? Ze-ro. To be considered a challenger, one has to show bouts of being able to go toe-to-toe, even if one ends up losing in the end. Ergo, not overrated. Not by a long shot.

 

[JackSlater]

This brings up an interesting factor we haven't actually discussed yet. Has Russia declined as compared to... since when?

I assumed that the argument was since last time they made it to the top 4 (in 2006) or medaled (in 2002) - to which I consider the sample size quite inadequate.

But if the issue is, as you seem to imply, their declination since the heyday of the Soviet Union in the 70s... to which I have just one thing to say: Duh.

Even most Russians recognize that Russia of 2014 is far from the national teams of the 1980s and 1970s. The Soviet hockey infrastructure was falling apart in the end, and it was a long time before Russia really found its feet again.

The thing with perception (connected to overrating) is that many casual fans still consider Russia as if it was still the USSR days. The American media talked about the shootout win over Russia in Sochi as if it was some big shock. They didn't realize that on talent, USA has an edge at this point.

 

[FiLe]

Even most Russians recognize that Russia of 2014 is far from the national teams of the 1980s and 1970s. The Soviet hockey infrastructure was falling apart in the end, and it was a long time before Russia really found its feet again.

The thing with perception (connected to overrating) is that many casual fans still consider Russia as if it was still the USSR days. The American media talked about the shootout win over Russia in Sochi as if it was some big shock. They didn't realize that on talent, USA has an edge at this point.

Interesting point. I wasn't aware that there actually are people who seriously figure Russia still is the big scary bear from the days of the USSR. I'm pretty sure no one in Europe thinks that. And I also expected the North American aficionados to know better.

But if they really don't... well, I guess that explains a lot.


Sure, casual fans are casual fans. But why should an enthusiast care what a casual fan thinks?

 

[YMCMBYOLO]

Yes, they are still a hockey power, but I'd rank them 5th or so. Still a hockey power imo.

 

[1Gold Standard]

Even most Russians recognize that Russia of 2014 is far from the national teams of the 1980s and 1970s. The Soviet hockey infrastructure was falling apart in the end, and it was a long time before Russia really found its feet again.

The thing with perception (connected to overrating) is that many casual fans still consider Russia as if it was still the USSR days. The American media talked about the shootout win over Russia in Sochi as if it was some big shock. They didn't realize that on talent, USA has an edge at this point.

over-exuberance + it gives the victory more significance. In the same way some in the Russian media and their fans, both enthusiast and the casual alike, point to the 2008 WHC in Quebec City as pretty much Canada's Olympic team.

 

[FedorBure]

you guys are at least #6 the Czech Republic has been better

I am trying to take into account both quality of players as well as results. I'd have to respectfully disagree but I have Czechs at #6. I think our ranking are probably pretty close otherwise.

 

[LeafsNation75]

That´s kind off ******** to me, as Olympics are one game elimination tourney. OK, you can argue that for example in 2010 they lost to us in round robin, but our team really wasn´t weak back then. Switzerland took Canada to the shootout in 2010. One lucky bounce and Swiss could´ve won. It isn´t like in the last century anymore, no team is unbeatable.

That maybe true but at least Canada won that shootout against Switzerland. However I honestly felt that in 2010 the Russian's thought they were so much better compared to all the other countries, that them losing to Slovakia in the shootout did a lot worse for them overall.

Don't you find it odd that in 2014 in their home country they once again lose a shootout in the Round Robin and once again end up losing in the Quarter Finals.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I am trying to take into account both quality of players as well as results. I'd have to respectfully disagree but I have Czechs at #6. I think our ranking are probably pretty close otherwise.

you are probably correct

Canada
USA
sweden
Finland
Czech Republic

whats yours?

 

[habsrule4eva3089]

Yes, victory will be yours.

Wish Team Canada would produce a similar song with Crosby and Subban rapping with the team in background showing their bling from 2010 and 2014.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Yes, victory will be yours.

Wish Team Canada would produce a similar song with Crosby and Subban rapping with the team in background showing their bling from 2010 and 2014.

awful

 

[FedorBure]

you are probably correct

Canada
USA
sweden
Finland
Czech Republic

whats yours?

Same, almost

Canada
USA
Sweden
Finland
Russia
Czech Republic

 

[OttawaRoughRiderFan*]

Canada
Sweden
USA
Finland
Russia
Czech Republic
Slovakia

 

[torero]

Russia is a hockey power, to me it is silly to even question that.

But to me it is also silly to say you cannot drop them from the higher echelon in rankings because the olympics are single game elimination formats. You can cut some slack for the occasional failure, it's understandable.

But 3 in a row with one of them being at home to boot?

You can't hide behind that single game stuff forever. Results matter.

Results matter ... yes and no ... Russia, in Sochi lost a game against the americans that was a shame... unluck to the extreme !!
would they have won it, probably they would have gone way further. Because they had it all to go to a medal at least.