Is Peter Forsberg underrated?

[Voight]

People just look at Numbers and say he was overrated.

Forsberg like Datsyuk were pretty much always the best player on the ice. A healthy prime Forsberg was a force.

It's going to get worse as we are further removed from the DPE. Kids born post lockout or even in the 2010's will simply look at numbers and not have the context nor explore why numbers were low then. They'll simply go "oh Forsberg wasn't that good, he only hit 100 points twice" not realizing how low scoring that era was.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Kariya would destroy the league today, but I don't think he has any serious argument in his own days.

So your opinion is that there was far more talent...back when the talent pool was smaller?

 

[Albatros]

So your opinion is that there was far more talent...back when the talent pool was smaller?

The talent pool peaked in the 90s.

 

[Midnight Judges]

The talent pool peaked in the 90s.

No it didn't.

Estimating the size of the NHL's talent pool (1950-2023)

There have been hundreds (and probably thousands) of posts on HOH that discuss the size of the NHL's talent pool. The data that's needed to determine the talent pool (youths actively involved in organized hockey) has never been maintained with any rigour or consistency, across countries and...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Machinehead]

I don't know how you can listen to hockey fans talk about Forsberg and ever think he's underrated.

That's not a knock on him.

 

[Albatros]

No it didn't.

Estimating the size of the NHL's talent pool (1950-2023)

There have been hundreds (and probably thousands) of posts on HOH that discuss the size of the NHL's talent pool. The data that's needed to determine the talent pool (youths actively involved in organized hockey) has never been maintained with any rigour or consistency, across countries and...

forums.hfboards.com

The number of kids playing hockey has been in a state of collapse in the 2000s, and besides raw numbers those still playing are rather the ones that can afford it than the most talented.

 

[Midnight Judges]

The number of kids playing hockey has been in a state of collapse in the 2000s,

Even if that were true in Canada, it's more than made up for by internationalization of the sport.

 

[Regal]

Even if that were true in Canada, it's more than made up for by internationalization of the sport.

The league isn’t really that much more international than it was in the 90s other than down the lineup. It used to be that mostly stars from other countries would make it, but more and more depth players are doing so now, particularly in the US. I haven’t looked at HO’s thread beyond a cursory glance but I’m not sure if we can properly account for the cost of the game pricing people out or suggest that the programs of other countries are stronger or not solely on the percentage of Canadians. Purely looking at national teams, the Czechs are worse. Slovakia is worse. Russia is about the same but has no centres. Sweden is about the same but its top players aren’t as good. USA is deeper than ever and Finland is also stronger than usual. Canada is at a low point after a series of weak drafts.

Of the top 100 scorers between 97-98 and 99-00, 47 were Canadian. Of the top 100 between 21-22 and today, 38 are Canadian, including the lull in talent as mentioned. The difference is pretty minimal in percentages and that’s only part of the equation. The reality is that we’re talking about a percentage of a percentage of the population here, so the margin for variance regardless of pools is quite high. The odds of Gretzky and Lemieux both being only a few years apart or Roy and Hasek being born the same year are exceedingly low, but here we are. Which also speaks to a factor that rarely gets mentioned and that’s that greater competition breeds greater ability. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that there’s lots of strong draft years and poor ones as these players are competing against one another. I do think we’re in a strong time period but I think the league was also quite strong in the 92-98 or so time line.

 

[Cup or Bust]

He was an awesome hockey player that could do almost anything. When fully healthy and at his best he was as good as almost anyone in his era. One of the best all-around hockey players I have ever seen. Tough to play against, physical, great defensively, amazing offensive skill and talent, one of the best playmakers ever in my opinion. He was one of the more dominant on ice players when at his best. He was a bull on skates, almost impossible to knock off the puck.

I understand he did have injury issues so career wise his ranking would not be very high but as a hockey player, what unique player he was. He played in a really tough era offensively and physically as well. He is top 5 in assists per game and top 10 in points per game all time. As a player he is probably underrated by people that never watched him but career wise being able to perform long term at a high level will always impact your all-time ranking so he can only be judged as a great hockey player that we just never got to see enough of, unfortunately.

 

[authentic]

People just look at Numbers and say he was overrated.

Forsberg like Datsyuk were pretty much always the best player on the ice. A healthy prime Forsberg was a force.

This is exactly it right here, probably the simplest way to put it. Also they’re being very selective with the numbers they’re looking at too, raw point totals. Most numbers beyond that prove just how good they were. Like honestly there was atleast a 10 year period for each player (Datsyuk is even more underrated in this regard in retrospect) where like you say most nights they would quite easily be the best player on the ice, whether they’re facing Crosby, Jagr, or playing on a tram with Lidstrom or Sakic or Zetterberg or Roy. I witnessed them enough in their prime to know I take them over anyone but the Crosby’s, Ovechkin’s, McDavid’s and Malkin of the millennium. Even then I wouldn’t lose sleep taking them over any of those players at their best that’s how good they were.

 

[authentic]

He was an awesome hockey player that could do almost anything. When fully healthy and at his best he was as good as almost anyone in his era. One of the best all-around hockey players I have ever seen. Tough to play against, physical, great defensively, amazing offensive skill and talent, one of the best playmakers ever in my opinion. He was one of the more dominant on ice players when at his best. He was a bull on skates, almost impossible to knock off the puck.

I understand he did have injury issues so career wise his ranking would not be very high but as a hockey player, what unique player he was. He played in a really tough era offensively and physically as well. He is top 5 in assists per game and top 10 in points per game all time. As a player he is probably underrated by people that never watched him but career wise being able to perform long term at a high level will always impact your all-time ranking so he can only be judged as a great hockey player that we just never got to see enough of, unfortunately.

For star forwards other than missing a lot of time and having his career end early being an elite player for more than a decade straight is actually pretty rare. He would’ve been like Crosby elite right until the very end.

 

[Ben White]

What does this even mean?



I did include those. I gave him credit for his 03/04 season but did not think it was fair to compare him to a 34 year old Sakic that year.

Forsberg could have won the PPG title in 05/06 but it was far from a certainty. He was 32 years old.

And, seriously, how many hypothetical "full" seasons are we supposed to give him? 5, 6, 7?

We have zero clue that he keeps on the same pace if he had fuller seasons earlier in his career.

However it’s very likely as he tended to produce at a higher rate the more games he played in a season. Forsberg is not a case of “hot streaks that he wouldn’t maintain in a full season“ - we already know that his best seasons in terms of ppg were the seasons in which he was closest to a full 82 games campaign.

 

[Ben White]

Sakic as well.

He was the 1st AST three times, his MVP year in 2001 is incredible and one of the better ones of the era.

That’s impressive and all but so was Forsberg. And you know what? Let’s say you need to play at least 70 games in a season to be considered - Forsberg had 4 such seasons while Sakic had 13 such seasons. Forsberg managed to become 1st AST 3/4 chances, Sakic got it 3/13 chances. Which resume is qualitatively better in your opinion?

 

[Ben White]

That’s impressive and all but so was Forsberg. And you know what? Let’s say you need to play at least 70 games in a season to be considered - Forsberg had 4 such seasons while Sakic had 13 such seasons. Forsberg managed to become 1st AST 3/4 chances, Sakic got it 3/13 chances. Which resume is qualitatively better in your opinion?

On the same topic, yeah I know you’ll respond it’s more difficult to maintain that ratio over more seasons due to fluctuations in competition and other factors etc. So let’s look into it. I have zero doubt that Forsberg would’ve been 1 AST in 2004 had he stayed healthy, and very likely follows that up in 2005 if not for the lockout, and likely takes it if fully healthy in 2006 as well. If not for the back surgery in 1999/00 (he came from his best playoff performance ever in 1999), he could’ve got it that year but it’s not certain. In 2001 Sakic might have still won it. 2002 thinking of the miraculous comeback Forsberg did in the playoffs he’s likely the top center in the league had he played in the regular season as well.

So, no, I don’t think the 3/4 first AST ratio would’ve dropped drastically had he stayed healthy during his prime.

 

[daver]

However it’s very likely as he tended to produce at a higher rate the more games he played in a season. Forsberg is not a case of “hot streaks that he wouldn’t maintain in a full season“ - we already know that his best seasons in terms of ppg were the seasons in which he was closest to a full 82 games campaign.

I am saying that you just can't assume that if he never missed any time earlier in his career (let alone whole year), that he still has the seasons later on.

That goes waaaaaayy too far into the hypothetical weeds.

What we do know is that he and Sakic seemed to take turns doing superstar level things over a 6/7 year period when their primes overlapped.

 

[The Macho King]

Forsbergs biggest asset is he played when people around here were growing up and therefore gets a massive nostalgia bump.

Massively overrated.

 

[Ben White]

I am saying that you just can't assume that if he never missed any time earlier in his career (let alone whole year), that he still has the seasons later on.

That goes waaaaaayy too far into the hypothetical weeds.

What we do know is that he and Sakic seemed to take turns doing superstar level things over a 6/7 year period when their primes overlapped.

I don’t understand what you’re even talking about here. If a player was always between 1-5 in ppg in the seasons he was more or less healthy it’s a pretty safe bet that he’d continue to do that if he had more healthy seasons. To just assume that it’s the other way around just because it’s “hypothetical” is rather hypocritical in this case. I mean both scenarios are hypothetical, it’s just that one scenario is projected off of empirical data and one just isn’t.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

Properly- to a little underrated, probably. This wasn't Alex Kovalev, there was a ton of substance to his career on top of the insanehighlight reel. Bonafide 1st ballot hall of famer by any view of his career, his career should have been even better if not for injuries.

Might've racked up a few more individual trophies if he had better health.

Still think this my favorite hockey highlight video of all time. a lot of the young'ins these days couldn't dream of pulling off some of the shit he did in the league in his day.

 

[MadLuke]

He get a mix of 3, under-over-properly rated I feel like.

Sometime you can hear some never scored over 30 goals type of spin, he was around 25th in goal per game from 96 to 04 in the regular season shooting 14.8%, 8th in the playoff shooting 17.9%, he had a great shot, could score and did when it was the good play.

(among 350+ regular season game for regular season, 25+ for the playoff)

Is on-ice, off-ice numbers are extraordinary considering how many game had sakic as an off-ice comparable.

At the same time it can go overboard because how spectacular and fun to watch he was, how vocals people that grew up with him as a favorite player on a big winning team.

All that said, healthy Forsberg, how many player we could list we are really confident they are a better idea to go with for a playoff round than him, the guy was +45 between 96 and 04 in the playoff while scoring at pretty much Jagr pace for 127 games.

 

[tabness]

Properly- to a little underrated, probably. This wasn't Alex Kovalev, there was a ton of substance to his career on top of the insanehighlight reel. Bonafide 1st ballot hall of famer by any view of his career, his career should have been even better if not for injuries.

Might've racked up a few more individual trophies if he had better health.

Still think this my favorite hockey highlight video of all time. a lot of the young'ins these days couldn't dream of pulling off some of the shit he did in the league in his day.

this video has more hitting and contact than an entire season nowadays, there are probably like 10 trouba threads in that video too lol

 

[Regal]

Forsbergs biggest asset is he played when people around here were growing up and therefore gets a massive nostalgia bump.

Massively overrated.

Every time I see people say this there’s never anything objective to back it up. Is it based on the odd random person that says he might have been top 10 of whatever without injury? Because his production and ice tilting abilities in both the regular season and playoffs put him firmly among the very best of his era.

 

[Hennessy]

He's rated just fine.
With Forsberg it wasn't so much about how "great" he was or who he was better than. It was about how dynamic he was. In that regard, he is one of the best players to ever lace them up.

 

[daver]

All that said, healthy Forsberg, how many player we could list we are really confident they are a better idea to go with for a playoff round than him, the guy was +45 between 96 and 04 in the playoff while scoring at pretty much Jagr pace for 127 games.

A healthy Forsberg, as mythical a creature as a healthy Lindros, was not on the level of a McDavid/Crosby/Jagr offensively. His peak season was very good but not close to the per game impact these three had had at their peaks/during their primes. Jagr and McDavid are more like offensive weapons so Forsberg's all around game certainly needs consideration in a comparison.

I do think he was a great playoff performer, albeit while playing on a stacked team, which could have moved him up in the all-time ratings vs. players with similar offensive peak/prime levels of play, notably other franchise Cs.

He simply missed way too much time to reasonably give him retroactive point finishes, and to not completely wave off his proneness to injury as being due to the era he played in.

 

[The Macho King]

Every time I see people say this there’s never anything objective to back it up. Is it based on the odd random person that says he might have been top 10 of whatever without injury? Because his production and ice tilting abilities in both the regular season and playoffs put him firmly among the very best of his era.

Bullshit - there's tons of objectivity. Point out games played, stats, Colarado winning the Cup without him, poor goal scoring, and all that's ignored because "you had to have seen him play" and "no one tilted the ice like him."

Great player. But just in that "elite player consistent with elite in any generation but not notable beyond that" way.

 

[daver]

Assuming he is not injured in any season, here are Forsberg's projected point finishes from 95/96 to 03/04 (with Mario removed). The next two seasons are a write off. He wins a very solid Art Ross in 02/03 and is likely heading for another in 03/04:

1, 1, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5