Is Peter Forsberg the best forward that never scored more than 30 goals?

[DisgruntledGoat*]

Hmm, I always thought Hardyvan's position was that there were too many HHOFers pre-expansion.

Now suddenly, the amount of HHOFers Richard played with is crucial.

 

[MXD]

If we take out the players who would have reached 31 goals at least once if they could have played 80 games per season, absolutely.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Hmm, I always thought Hardyvan's position was that there were too many HHOFers pre-expansion.

Not sure that I have ever said that but I do believe that the bar should remain somewhat consistent and fair to all players and most of the guys I have argued as having a case for the HHOF that are excluded would be post expansion 1967 types.

Now suddenly, the amount of HHOFers Richard played with is crucial.

Well it's the ultimate test of how one does against ones peers right?

Also it was in direct response to the erroneous claim that Henri was a top line player over over 20 years which just wasn't even close to being true.

Unless of course one wants to argue that Jean was the 2nd line center on that team?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If we take out the players who would have reached 31 goals at least once if they could have played 80 games per season, absolutely.

In that case, we'd assume Syl Apps and Henri Richard would have reached 30 goals at least once. So it would come down to Peter Forsberg vs Frank Boucher.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Not sure that I have ever said that but I do believe that the bar should remain somewhat consistent and fair to all players and most of the guys I have argued as having a case for the HHOF that are excluded would be post expansion 1967 types.



Well it's the ultimate test of how one does against ones peers right?

Also it was in direct response to the erroneous claim that Henri was a top line player over over 20 years which just wasn't even close to being true.

Unless of course one wants to argue that Jean was the 2nd line center on that team?

I think it was a 1A/1B situation with Richard and Beliveau at even strength, with Beliveau being the dominant powerplay player.

Overall, Richard was the 3rd best center of the 50s/60s, behind Beliveau and Mikita.

Since the Postseason All-Star Teams were created at the end of the 1931 season, both center spots have been taken by teammates only 3 times - all 3 by Jean Beliveau and Henri Richard (in 1958, 1959, and 1961). By comparison, neither Forsberg or Sakic could make it onto the 2nd Team when the other was on the 1st Team.

I actually do think Forsberg peaked a bit higher than Pocket Rocket, but Henri was just so good for so long.

IMO, Forsberg, Henri Richard, and Frank Boucher are pretty close. My picks would be Richard > Forsberg > Boucher, but again, there are arguments for any of them. I do think Syl Apps is a bit ahead of all of them, though.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I think it was a 1A/1B situation with Richard and Beliveau at even strength, with Beliveau being the dominant powerplay player.

I think that you can make a case for Sakic/Foppa being alot more 1A/1B type of setups than Henri and Jean.

Overall, Richard was the 3rd best center of the 50s/60s, behind Beliveau and Mikita.

Probably but the 4th guy is also way behind.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...c4comp=gt&c4val=&threshhold=5&order_by=points

Since the Postseason All-Star Teams were created at the end of the 1931 season, both center spots have been taken by teammates only 3 times - all 3 by Jean Beliveau and Henri Richard (in 1958, 1959, and 1961). By comparison, neither Forsberg or Sakic could make it onto the 2nd Team when the other was on the 1st Team.

we all know that post season all star voting is going to hurt Foppa on 2 counts

1) missing games and lack of complete full seasons

2) Much more competition for those berths (partly due to more teams but also the influx of soem really good centers from Europe)

I actually do think Forsberg peaked a bit higher than Pocket Rocket, but Henri was just so good for so long.

What exactly are you defining as peak here?

Being identified as in the mix for best player in the world for multiple years applies to one play, not the other.

As noted above in a previous post Foppa was much more of a force on his own teams in playoff scoring.

IMO, Forsberg, Henri Richard, and Frank Boucher are pretty close. My picks would be Richard > Forsberg > Boucher, but again, there are arguments for any of them. I do think Syl Apps is a bit ahead of all of them, though.

Sure there are arguments but there is also a very strong argument for Foppa being the best of those 4 as well.

 

[MXD]

In that case, we'd assume Syl Apps and Henri Richard would have reached 30 goals at least once. So it would come down to Peter Forsberg vs Frank Boucher.

Well... Boucher once scored 26 goals in 42 games.
The flipside is, it was 29-30, so I'm not sure whether it should count at all.

 

[Voight]

IMO, public opinion of Pocket is vastly vastly different if he played on, say the Rangers of his time.

 

[MXD]

IMO, public opinion of Pocket is vastly vastly different if he played on, say the Rangers of his time.

Yeah, he'd probably be seen a bit like Andy Bathgate playing center and better defensively.

 

[authentic]

Except he is only marginally better then Sakic. If you believe he is even better in the first place.

Mario and Orr were way better then everyone. Forsberg was basically equal to Sakic on a one game off scenario. Maybe 5% better? Some should argue. Not that he was way better.

82 games of Forsberg is better then 82 games of Sakic.

77 games of Forsberg is not better then 82 games of Sakic.

60 games of Forsberg is not near as good as 82 games of Sakic.

50 games of Mario is better then 82 games of Forsberg or Sakic.

You say this as if Sakic played 82 games every season. Also no 50 games of Mario was not better than 82 games of Sakic or Forsberg. 60-65 maybe, but 50 no way.

 

[authentic]

If we take out the players who would have reached 31 goals at least once if they could have played 80 games per season, absolutely.

Forsberg fits in this category as well though.

 

[Voight]

Yeah, he'd probably be seen a bit like Andy Bathgate playing center and better defensively.

I was thinking less than that.

 

[I Hate Blake Coleman]

Forsberg was a playmaker first and foremost. He averaged 1.25 PPG which is more impressive.

 

[MXD]

Forsberg fits in this category as well though.

Forsberg didn't often play 80 games because he was oft-injured.

Richard, Boucher and Apps didn't play 80 games because the seasons were shorter.

I was thinking less than that.

 

[Hardyvan123]

IMO, public opinion of Pocket is vastly vastly different if he played on, say the Rangers of his time.

Interesting question.

Yeah, he'd probably be seen a bit like Andy Bathgate playing center and better defensively.

I was thinking less than that.

One would think so as alot of Henri's value seems to be tied up in his playoff resume with some in the thread having it as good as Foppa's (which is just not a very strong argument when one looks at the 2 players).

But maybe not having a strong playoff resume in his hypothetical NYR times wouldn't hurt him, it didn't hurt any of the 50's or 60's NYR players a bit in the all time lists.

 

[Holkoun]

He's overrated so who really knows

overrated? You must be smoking your socks. He is one of the most talented players ever played this game.

 

[MXD]

Interesting question.





One would think so as alot of Henri's value seems to be tied up in his playoff resume with some in the thread having it as good as Foppa's (which is just not a very strong argument when one looks at the 2 players).

But maybe not having a strong playoff resume in his hypothetical NYR times wouldn't hurt him, it didn't hurt any of the 50's or 60's NYR players a bit in the all time lists.

Not having a strong playoff resume probably hurt him, but being the go-to Center, as opposed to the 2nd center probably helps him more.

 

[MXD]

Speaking of Henri : Happy 20th birthday!

 

[Hardyvan123]

Not having a strong playoff resume probably hurt him, but being the go-to Center, as opposed to the 2nd center probably helps him more.

Perhaps but IMO it's highly unlikely as coming into the league with those Habs teams couldn't have been a more perfect situation for him.

2 great RW snipers, playing under Jean and also having Jean miss some time to elevate him up with his scoring finishes.

No doubt the pocket rocket would have had a great career with other teams I just don't think that any situation helps him as much as being on those Habs teams did.

Much like If Lafleur had been picked by Detroit instead of Montreal.

The year after Foppa was drafted it was pretty clear he was going to be a dominant player anywhere he went.

 

[Boxscore]

Yes.

At his best, Forsberg was probably the 3rd most dominant player I've ever seen in person (definitely in the Top 5). Due to his ferocious style of play and injuries, he missed time and his full career isn't as impressive as it could (should) have been. But, at his peak, he was definitely the best forward to never score 30 in my book.

 

[MXD]

Perhaps but IMO it's highly unlikely as coming into the league with those Habs teams couldn't have been a more perfect situation for him.

2 great RW snipers, playing under Jean and also having Jean miss some time to elevate him up with his scoring finishes.

No doubt the pocket rocket would have had a great career with other teams I just don't think that any situation helps him as much as being on those Habs teams did.

Much like If Lafleur had been picked by Detroit instead of Montreal.

The year after Foppa was drafted it was pretty clear he was going to be a dominant player anywhere he went.

... Think about the bolded for a minute...

 

[VanIslander]

The Force was... strong.

 

[carjackmalone]

Outside of his two seasons in Boston it’s Adam Oates

 

[Gerulaitis]

I think Vladimir Krutov never scored 30 in an NHL season, though he spent his prime in the Soviet Union

 

[The Panther]

I think Vladimir Krutov never scored 30 in an NHL season, though he spent his prime in the Soviet Union