Is Ovechkin the 5th best player of all time?

[Midnight Judges]

There's a pretty big gap between 4 and 5. And I think there are a bunch of names that you can throw at 5 that are defendable. Chronologically,

Maurice Richard
Pros
Highest goal scoring playoff peak of any individual player. One of the best playoff performers ever, arguably as high as 1.
Was a top 2 winger in the game from ~1944-1957
Contemporary opinion was glowing. In 1960 was generally considered the greatest player of all time.

Cons
Never led the league in points. Only 1 Hart. He is a couple injuries/suspensions for multiples though.
50-in-50 was during a very weak war year. It has a huge legend, but wasn't his best season.
True contemporary opinion is less glowing. During his prime of ~1944-1952 he isn't spoken of as highly as in 1960-2000. His cultural legend outweighs his on ice legend.
Weak defensively.

Overall, a weak case for #5, but it's there. You'd have to really love goal scoring in the playoffs.


Doug Harvey
Pros
7 Norrises and arguably the highest non-Orr peak of all time. Generally considered the best goal ever throughout his prime.
Absurd defensive play
Left the dynasty Habs and still won a Norris on a weak Rangers team while finishing second in Hart

Cons
Weak offense compared to immediate predecessor Kelly. In the context of the era, it's strong but not otherworldly strong.
We were robbed of several series because of his personal demons.
Only one season of note away from a dynasty and all time great goalie.

Overall, an okay argument for five. If you believe you was the straw that stirred the drink of the 50s Habs dynasty it's a good sell.


Jean Beliveau
Pros
Arguably best single season outside the Big Four. Arguably best single playoff too (both 1956)
Consistent offense, strong defense. The model defenseman for 15 years. Amazing Hart record.
Elite into his late 30s, including the 1971 Cup. Contemporary opinion is glowing.
Best forward on two Habs dynasties

Cons
"Only" 1 Art Ross
Some down seasons in the mid 60s.
The contract situation meant he jumped to the NHL late.
Functionally played every shift of his career with multiple HHOF teammates.

Overall, I think the best overall case for 5. Strong offense. Strong defense. Strong peak. Strong longevity. 10 Cups with most being a key contributor. Everything you want out of a player.


Bobby Hull
Pros
High offensive peak with multiple Art Rosses, 7 Richards, and a decade of dominance. Arguably best goal scoring season of all time.
Most visually dominant player outside Orr and McDavid.
Competent defensively.
Multiple good playoff runs, including 1971 where he almost one-manned a Cup

Cons
Lost prime trophies to teammate Mikita
1 Cup will always sting, even if it's primarily a depth problem
Could coast in regular season
Good but not great playmaker.

Overall, okay argument for 5. You'd have to really favour offense to put him there with a lean to goalscoring.


Jaromir Jagr
Pros
7x top 2 in points with a possession heavy style.
Arguably best non Big Four season ever in 1999.
Strong Cup performance in 1992 and elite ones on late 90s awful Penguins teams.
Played forever

Cons
Spent half his prime the second best player on his line.
No signature playoffs.
Quit on the Penguins in 2000 before Lemieux returned. Half assed his time on the Capitals.
Only widely considered best player in the world for a short period of time.

Overall, a pretty weak argument for five. You'd have to be offense only with a high emphasis on longevity.


Alex Ovechkin
Very high peak, three years in a row winning the Pearson and leading in PPG.
Arguably best goal scoring season ever with consensus best goal scoring longevity ever.
Strong playoff performer, particularly 2009
Tremendous physical force that could tilt the game with hits, particularly in his prime.
Some of the best longevity and availability in the sport's history

Cons
Never a serious Art Ross threat after 2010 and some very weak assist seasons
Shortest prime of any contender for 5, though he was still able to lead the league in goals after his steep decline
Outside goals, very little of note after 2010

Overall, a weak argument for 5. The argument rests on goals alone.


Sidney Crosby
Pros
High peak, absurd prime, strong longevity. Good goalscorer, great playmaker, competent defensively, strong possession game. Just does everything well.
Consistently led league in PPG for years and was widely viewed as best player in the league.
Strong playoff performer

Cons
Missed 75% of the games during his peak seasons
Some fairly weak SCFs
Small individual trophy case for #5

Overall, a good argument for 5. I think him and Beliveau are the best current arguments. Just does everything right.


Connor McDavid
Pros
5 Art Rosses, 3 Harts, an obscene peak. Strong argument for best season outside the Big Four (2023). Consistently does things people thought were impossible
Strong playoff resume with two extremely strong runs.
Widely known as the best player in the world for nearly a decade

Cons
Hasn't won a Cup
Is 27
Weakest defensively of the three centres in contention

Overall, I think most people view him as heir apparent for #5. But he's not there yet.


Some people will argue for Roy and Hasek at 5 but I think the argument for a goalie there is weak.

Ah, so when Beliveau is 6th in points from 1958 - 1971 it’s “strong longevity” and “elite into his late 30s” but when Ovechkin is 3rd in points from 10-11 to 2025 it’s “very little of note.”

 

[Thallis]

Behind McDavid, Crosby, Jagr, Hasek, Beliveau

 

[Midnight Judges]

That kind of reminds me of another post where a guy claimed Ovechkin's 2010-2011 season was "a huge letdown" but went on to claim, in the same post, that Crosby's 4 consecutive 30-ish goal / 80-some point seasons were "amazing consistency!"

 

[Golden_Jet]

Ah, so when Beliveau is 6th in points from 1958 - 1971 it’s “strong longevity” and “elite into his late 30s” but when Ovechkin is 3rd in points from 10-11 to 2025 it’s “very little of note.”

Also Bobby Hull first in points by 93 points and first in goals by 140 goals from his rookie season until he jumped to the WHA, for way more money.

 

[NVious]

He's arguably top 10, but as much as I love Ovie, there are other players I would take over him starting a team just due to their positional importance.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Ah, so when Beliveau is 6th in points from 1958 - 1971 it’s “strong longevity” and “elite into his late 30s” but when Ovechkin is 3rd in points from 10-11 to 2025 it’s “very little of note.”

You can look at their individual seasons

Beliveau (post 1957-58)
Hart - 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4
Points - 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 6, 9, 9 (two of these he lead the league in PPG)
Additionally, he won 7 Cups in this time frame including a Conn Smythe. I find him finishing second on the Habs in points in the 1971 playoffs at age 39 all while being the most praised skater on the team to be very impressive.
The Hart record reflects just how strong he was viewed and how elite he was both offensively and defensively.

Ovechkin (post 2009-10)
Hart - 1, 2, 6, 7
Points - 3, 4, 6, 9

His fall-off in playmaking is really what hurts his post-2010 career. Just look at his top 50 in assist finishes
2011 - 6th
2013 - 39th

That's it. When talking about 5th best player of all time, it's a very valid criticism of a post-2010 career.

 

[amnesiac]

That kind of reminds me of another post where a guy claimed Ovechkin's 2010-2011 season was "a huge letdown" but went on to claim, in the same post, that Crosby's 4 consecutive 30-ish goal / 80-some point seasons were "amazing consistency!"

let it go, man…. Jesus

 

[authentic]

No he's not. He's hovering in the top 10 range. Arguably closer to 15 than 5.

I would argue he is definitely closer to 5, although I would not have him 5 simply because he won’t be placed above Crosby and McDavid when all is said and done, but after that he has a serious case over anyone.

 

[blundluntman]

Ah, so when Beliveau is 6th in points from 1958 - 1971 it’s “strong longevity” and “elite into his late 30s” but when Ovechkin is 3rd in points from 10-11 to 2025 it’s “very little of note.”

He did say Ovi had some of the best longevity and availability in sports history to be fair

 

[zizbuka]

Since you used 'player', which to means all around, he's not even top 10.

 

[Crow]

He did say Ovi had some of the best longevity and availability in sports history to be fair

He also said ‘elite into his 30s’ then the other guy cited a stat starting when ovi was 27 so I don’t know what his point was.

Jean won the hart once and was runner up for the hart 3 times in his 30s.

Ovi’s never finished top 5.

Pretty sure that was the point.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Nowhere close. He had five seasons within Hart top 5 during his own playing days.

Just for context, here are the (in my opinion) 14 players who are in the mix for #5 all time:

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	Total
Jean Beliveau	2	4	1	2		9
Sidney Crosby	2	4	1	1	1	9
Bobby Hull	2	2	4		1	9
Eddie Shore	4	1	2		1	8
Connor McDavid	3	1	2		2	8
Jaromir Jagr	1	4	1	1		7
Maurice Richard	1	2	3			6
Alexander Ovechkin	3	2				5
Dominik Hasek	2	1	2			5
Patrick Roy		1	1	1​	2	5
Doug Harvey		1	1		3	5
Howie Morenz	3	1				4
Ray Bourque		2			2	4
Nicklas Lidstrom				1​		1

To be clear, this is just raw data. It doesn't take into account the size of the league, the level of competition, or positional biases.

(If you want to apply a weighting to the results, say 10-7-5-3-1 points like the real life Hart trophy voting, the results would be - Beliveau 59, Shore 58, Crosby 57, Hull 55, McDavid 49, Jagr 46, Ovechkin 44, Richard 39, Hasek 37, Morenz 37, Roy 17, Bourque 16, Harvey 15, Lidstrom 3 - same disclaimers still apply).

 

[Golden_Jet]

Just for context, here are the (in my opinion) 14 players who are in the mix for #5 all time:

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	Total
Jean Beliveau	2	4	1	2		9
Sidney Crosby	2	4	1	1	1	9
Bobby Hull	2	2	4		1	9
Eddie Shore	4	1	2		1	8
Connor McDavid	3	1	2		2	8
Jaromir Jagr	1	4	1	1		7
Maurice Richard	1	2	3			6
Alexander Ovechkin	3	2				5
Dominik Hasek	2	1	2			5
Patrick Roy		1	1	1​	2	5
Doug Harvey		1	1		3	5
Howie Morenz	3	1				4
Ray Bourque		2			2	4
Nicklas Lidstrom				1​		1

To be clear, this is just raw data. It doesn't take into account the size of the league, the level of competition, or positional biases.

(If you want to apply a weighting to the results, say 10-7-5-3-1 points like the real life Hart trophy voting, the results would be - Beliveau 59, Shore 58, Crosby 57, Hull 55, McDavid 49, Jagr 46, Ovechkin 44, Richard 39, Hasek 37, Morenz 37, Roy 17, Bourque 16, Harvey 15, Lidstrom 3 - same disclaimers still apply).

Nice Chart, Hull probably becomes #1 if he doesn’t leave the NHL.

 

[crowfish]

Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Howe
McDavid
Crosby

Ovechkin is somewhere between 7th & 10th all-time

 

[DearDiary]

Why is "no" the only poll option that requires an explanation?

 

[Fantomas]

I think one guy with a very strong case for #5, who I rarely see mentioned in the conversation, is Ray Bourque. Just an oustanding career.

(If you want to apply a weighting to the results, say 10-7-5-3-1 points like the real life Hart trophy voting, the results would be - Beliveau 59, Shore 58, Crosby 57, Hull 55, McDavid 49, Jagr 46, Ovechkin 44, Richard 39, Hasek 37, Morenz 37, Roy 17, Bourque 16, Harvey 15, Lidstrom 3 - same disclaimers still apply).

Hart voting is biased against defensemen. I would ignore it.

 

[LTIR]

Ovechkin is a longer lasting Brett Hull.
Top 10 -15 all time IMO

 

[Beau Knows]

I think he's something 7ish-15th depending on who you ask. I'd probably rank him just outside the top 10.

 

[Toby91ca]

There's a pretty big gap between 4 and 5. And I think there are a bunch of names that you can throw at 5 that are defendable. Chronologically,

Maurice Richard
Pros
Highest goal scoring playoff peak of any individual player. One of the best playoff performers ever, arguably as high as 1.
Was a top 2 winger in the game from ~1944-1957
Contemporary opinion was glowing. In 1960 was generally considered the greatest player of all time.

Cons
Never led the league in points. Only 1 Hart. He is a couple injuries/suspensions for multiples though.
50-in-50 was during a very weak war year. It has a huge legend, but wasn't his best season.
True contemporary opinion is less glowing. During his prime of ~1944-1952 he isn't spoken of as highly as in 1960-2000. His cultural legend outweighs his on ice legend.
Weak defensively.

Overall, a weak case for #5, but it's there. You'd have to really love goal scoring in the playoffs.


Doug Harvey
Pros
7 Norrises and arguably the highest non-Orr peak of all time. Generally considered the best goal ever throughout his prime.
Absurd defensive play
Left the dynasty Habs and still won a Norris on a weak Rangers team while finishing second in Hart

Cons
Weak offense compared to immediate predecessor Kelly. In the context of the era, it's strong but not otherworldly strong.
We were robbed of several series because of his personal demons.
Only one season of note away from a dynasty and all time great goalie.

Overall, an okay argument for five. If you believe you was the straw that stirred the drink of the 50s Habs dynasty it's a good sell.


Jean Beliveau
Pros
Arguably best single season outside the Big Four. Arguably best single playoff too (both 1956)
Consistent offense, strong defense. The model defenseman for 15 years. Amazing Hart record.
Elite into his late 30s, including the 1971 Cup. Contemporary opinion is glowing.
Best forward on two Habs dynasties

Cons
"Only" 1 Art Ross
Some down seasons in the mid 60s.
The contract situation meant he jumped to the NHL late.
Functionally played every shift of his career with multiple HHOF teammates.

Overall, I think the best overall case for 5. Strong offense. Strong defense. Strong peak. Strong longevity. 10 Cups with most being a key contributor. Everything you want out of a player.


Bobby Hull
Pros
High offensive peak with multiple Art Rosses, 7 Richards, and a decade of dominance. Arguably best goal scoring season of all time.
Most visually dominant player outside Orr and McDavid.
Competent defensively.
Multiple good playoff runs, including 1971 where he almost one-manned a Cup

Cons
Lost prime trophies to teammate Mikita
1 Cup will always sting, even if it's primarily a depth problem
Could coast in regular season
Good but not great playmaker.

Overall, okay argument for 5. You'd have to really favour offense to put him there with a lean to goalscoring.


Jaromir Jagr
Pros
7x top 2 in points with a possession heavy style.
Arguably best non Big Four season ever in 1999.
Strong Cup performance in 1992 and elite ones on late 90s awful Penguins teams.
Played forever

Cons
Spent half his prime the second best player on his line.
No signature playoffs.
Quit on the Penguins in 2000 before Lemieux returned. Half assed his time on the Capitals.
Only widely considered best player in the world for a short period of time.

Overall, a pretty weak argument for five. You'd have to be offense only with a high emphasis on longevity.


Alex Ovechkin
Very high peak, three years in a row winning the Pearson and leading in PPG.
Arguably best goal scoring season ever with consensus best goal scoring longevity ever.
Strong playoff performer, particularly 2009
Tremendous physical force that could tilt the game with hits, particularly in his prime.
Some of the best longevity and availability in the sport's history

Cons
Never a serious Art Ross threat after 2010 and some very weak assist seasons
Shortest prime of any contender for 5, though he was still able to lead the league in goals after his steep decline
Outside goals, very little of note after 2010

Overall, a weak argument for 5. The argument rests on goals alone.


Sidney Crosby
Pros
High peak, absurd prime, strong longevity. Good goalscorer, great playmaker, competent defensively, strong possession game. Just does everything well.
Consistently led league in PPG for years and was widely viewed as best player in the league.
Strong playoff performer

Cons
Missed 75% of the games during his peak seasons
Some fairly weak SCFs
Small individual trophy case for #5

Overall, a good argument for 5. I think him and Beliveau are the best current arguments. Just does everything right.


Connor McDavid
Pros
5 Art Rosses, 3 Harts, an obscene peak. Strong argument for best season outside the Big Four (2023). Consistently does things people thought were impossible
Strong playoff resume with two extremely strong runs.
Widely known as the best player in the world for nearly a decade

Cons
Hasn't won a Cup
Is 27
Weakest defensively of the three centres in contention

Overall, I think most people view him as heir apparent for #5. But he's not there yet.


Some people will argue for Roy and Hasek at 5 but I think the argument for a goalie there is weak.

Curious why would you argue Beliveau's 1956 season as the best outside of the big 4?

 

[jigglysquishy]

Curious why would you argue Beliveau's 1956 season as the best outside of the big 4?

His 88 points was 17 clear of anyone besides Howe. Using VsX as a measure, it's sixth all time outside Big Four or Big Four influenced seasons (McDavid 2021, Morenz 1928, McDavid 2023, Lafleur 1977, Hull 1966). He finished first in goals by a wide margin, tied for lead in EVP, and played strong defensive hockey.

I think it's been since surpassed by McDavid, but if you look at NHL post merger it is right in contention.

That he followed it up with a would be Conn Smythe and Cup is incredible.

 

[Voight]

There will be people in this thread that swear he’s unseating one of the Top 4 with a pretty decent argument to back it up. There will be people in this thread that have him outside the Top 15 with pretty decent argument to back it up.

But one thing is for sure. History will look more and more kindly upon Ovi as the years go on. He’ll finish with the 2nd or 3rd biggest trophy case, a slew of all time records, and will be plastered over NHL media for decades (if not longer) atop every list of any current player doing anything notable with respect to putting the puck into the net.

His final goal tally will be one of the 2 immortal numbers in hockey. That kind of legacy only gains power over time.

IMO, there's no argument to have him outside the top 15

 

[Toby91ca]

His 88 points was 17 clear of anyone besides Howe. Using VsX as a measure, it's sixth all time outside Big Four or Big Four influenced seasons (McDavid 2021, Morenz 1928, McDavid 2023, Lafleur 1977, Hull 1966). He finished first in goals by a wide margin, tied for lead in EVP, and played strong defensive hockey.

Ok, didn't think about removing Big Four or Big Four influenced....but, it's not an easy argument to say it's better than Hull's 1966 regular season.

Removing Howe from the list, yes, Beliveau was 17pts (23.9%) clear of the next guy and 9 goals (23.7%), but Hull was 19pts (24.4%) and 20 goals (80%...jesus) from the next guy.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Ok, didn't think about removing Big Four or Big Four influenced....but, it's not an easy argument to say it's better than Hull's 1966 regular season.

Removing Howe from the list, yes, Beliveau was 17pts (23.9%) clear of the next guy and 9 goals (23.7%), but Hull was 19pts (24.4%) and 20 goals (80%...jesus) from the next guy.

Ya Hull 1966 is absolutely in contention for best non Big Four season.

 

[winnipegger]

Why is "no" the only poll option that requires an explanation?

Don't insult my poll

 

[Fantomas]

Alex Ovechkin

Outside goals, very little of note after 2010

This is obviously wrong