Is Ovechkin the 5th best player of all time?

[amnesiac]

Gretzky
Orr
Mario
(McDavid eventually)
Crosby
Howe

Jagr
Hasek
Beliveau
Ovie
Hull

Richard
Harvey
Bourque
(Morenz)
Roy

Lidstrom
Mikita
Esposito
Lafleur
(Shore)

Plante
Sawchuk
Messier
Kelly
(Nighbor)

 

[dukeofjive]

Ovy is about to beat the goal record, that he would already have broken without all the work stoppage the league had during is career.

He is for me in the top 10 all positions.

 

[um]

It’s McDavid.

He’s a tier above Crosby/Ovie/Jagr/Hasek at this point.

 

[amnesiac]

I have him and Crosby neck and neck at 10-11 Both guys are behind Hull, Beliveau, Hasek, Roy, Bourque.

whats the argument for Hull over Ovi (and Crosby for that matter)?

Ovi has more career goals and points, has one more Hart, and 2 more "Rockets"

Hull has 2 more Art Rosses, and only 1 Cup like Ovi, but played in O6 for 10 seasons before expansion.

 

[jigglysquishy]

whats the argument for Hull over Ovi (and Crosby for that matter)?

Ovi has more career goals and points, has one more Hart, and 2 more "Rockets"

Hull has 2 more Art Rosses, and only 1 Cup like Ovi, but played in O6 for 10 seasons before expansion.

I think Ovi is clearly above him now.

Bobby Hull was just a straight up better player. Contemporary opinion is clear. Video evidence is clear.

Rankings players is more than just an award counting excel file.

 

[Crow]

whats the argument for Hull over Ovi (and Crosby for that matter)?

Ovi has more career goals and points, has one more Hart, and 2 more "Rockets"

Hull has 2 more Art Rosses, and only 1 Cup like Ovi, but played in O6 for 10 seasons before expansion.

I think Ovi is clearly above him now.

There are a few arguments for Hull over Ovi.

In his NHL prime they played 70 games, not 82. Another 12 games a year and his compiling stats and season individual totals likely look far more impressive.

Hull spent 7 years of his career in the WHA, when he was still playing at an extremely high level. He had scored 50 goals the year before he left the NHL. Obviously the WHA was an inferior league lacking the depth of the NHL but his career statistics likely shine much brighter if he stays in the NHL his entire career. I believe he would have competed for more rockets in his 33-40 year old seasons. People tend to ignore that the NHL also became weaker due to the emergence of the WHL. When Hull came back to the NHL at 41 he still scored at a 18 goal, 52 point pace.

The other argument is regarding his overall hart records as opposed to wins alone. These are their top 3 finishes.

Hull - 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3

Ovi - 1, 1, 1, 2, 2

Fair to say Hull was much more consistently a top player in the NHL. Hull was more like Crosby than Ovi in that regard, but obviously a better goal scorer by far.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I look forward to you at least making even slightest effort to defend your "one dimensional" falsehood. I mean, you won't because you can't, but I hereby extend the invitation anyway.

Hey, while you have your shotgun out, may I point out that you're aiming it at the wrong person?

 

[JackSlater]

He is one of the guys in the running but I think he's not a great choice there. You can pick him, but it's a tough sell.

I will add that the record argument is a very bad one. If you have Ovechkin fifth all time right now then fine, but it makes no sense to have him jump plyers once he sets the goal record. That is the same as saying "Oveckin is better than (whichever player) becaude Gretzky didn't score more goals" and does not hold up.

 

[Golden_Jet]

NO he isnt even good player hasnt been for long time. Arguably one of worst players atm in NHL its fair to say he isnt NHL calibre player nowadays hasnt been for years.

Wow, thats wrong.

but in pure ability i doubt theres any professional hockey mind who would rank ovechkin as a top 500 hockey player in world atm

not a top 500 lol, 17th in league in points, 4th in goals, 6th on even strength goals.
But not top 500 in the league……ok

What’s your evidence for one of the worst players, and not even top 500?

 

[WarriorofTime]

He makes the all time starting five with nobody playing out of position team.

Ovechkin-Gretzky-Howe
Orr-

The missing piece on a historical all time great scale is a right handed defenseman. You’re probably looking at Chris Chelios right now. That’s a spot that could be upgraded on the interdimensional time and space all time team.

 

[bobholly39]

Funny but for Ovechkin - I think the goal-record will/would do less for his ranking to me, than the last few seasons have.

I actually really like his last few seasons. I think he's done a great job, despite getting older/slowing down - in performing as well as he could at key times to help his team reach better results than expected.

He was excellent in 2022. He was keeping pace with McDavid/Draisaitl for Ross/Hart halfway into the season, at age 36, which is incredible. Yes he dropped off a lot in the second half, but it was still good enough to help launch his team safely into playoff position, and never look back. So lots of team value.

In 2023-2024, he was his team's best player in the second half. Is it a strong season overall? Not necessarily. Only 31 goals (that's huge for a 38 yr old, but not so much for Ovi or in general) and -22, 65 points. But he was the biggest reason his team managed to make a run for playoffs, and unexpectedly qualify. Very strong second half, and I think that's valuable.

Only ~14 games in so far, but so far this season he's on pace for 59 goals and 105 points, and has his team unexpectedly near top of standings.

There was also talk ~5 years ago about how Ovechkin may top Gretzky's 894 goals, but a lot of people thought he'd probably do it by hanging on forever and having seasons of ~20 goals or so in his 40s. Here he is doing the opposite - 50 goals 3 years ago, 42...and on pace for ~50+ again this year.

So - I quite like his last few seasons.

I'm not sure how much his last few seasons will impact his overall player ranking, since it takes a LOT to move the needle for the top ~5-15 players of all-time, but I just wanted to say, his last few seasons have been great.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Hey, while you have your shotgun out, may I point out that you're aiming it at the wrong person?

I'm not though.

All jokes have a foundation. In this case, the "one-dimensional" falsehood is his foundation. From there he goes on to claim that Ovechkin fans somehow are merely stretching 1 dimension into 15.

 

[winnipegger]

Nobody has addressed the fact that he's still an elite goal scorer at 39 years old. Who else besides Howe has done this?

I have him and Crosby neck and neck at 10-11 Both guys are behind Hull, Beliveau, Hasek, Roy, Bourque.

Come on. Bourque above Ovie? What's the reasoning there.

 

[RSPens]

I don't know where to find but it would be interesting to see Crosby vs ovie records in NHL. Especially since ovie will score the most goals in the history of the sport.

What does Crosby have on him when we open history books in the future? Concussions? Who has the most stacked trophy case? Who will be doing what noone else have ever done which is also the most important aspect of the game?

They have played 70 games against each other with Sid having a record of 41-25-4 in the regular season and 13-12 in the playoffs.

OV has 37G-30A-67Pts
Sid has 31G-60A-91Pts

Sid has been the better player head to head, but I'm sure certain posters would attribute that to teammates and not Sid.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I'm not though.

All jokes have a foundation. In this case, the "one-dimensional" falsehood is his foundation. From there he goes on to claim that Ovechkin fans somehow are merely stretching 1 dimension into 15.

You keep doing you.

What about that Bavarian cream pie joke? There's no foundation to that. Nobody with a terminal illness goes from the United States to Europe for a piece of Bavarian cream pie and then when they get there and they don't have it he says "Aw, I'll just have some coffee."

We'll see who gets *that* reference.

 

[banks]

He's not top 5.

But that's not an insult.

 

[Fatass]

No. Imo OV is in the 15-25 range.

 

[RSPens]

Feel free to defend your argument then.

Finish the following sentences:

Ovechkin is 5th all time in adjusted points and will end his career top 10 all time in raw points despite playing mostly in a low scoring era, but actually he's one dimensional because _________.

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Adjusted Points | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Wayne Gretzky (2475), 2. Gordie Howe (2190), 3. Jaromír Jágr (2080), 4. Sidney Crosby (1823), 5. Alex Ovechkin (1805), 6. Mark Messier (1732), 7. Ron Francis (1711), 8. Joe Thornton (1692), 9. Joe Sakic (1679), 10. Steve Yzerman (1650)

www.hockey-reference.com

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Ovechkin is top 60 all time in raw assists and top 45 in adjusted assists, but he doesn't actually do anything except score goals, because _____________.

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Adjusted Assists | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Wayne Gretzky (1717), 2. Gordie Howe (1265), 3. Jaromír Jágr (1239), 4. Joe Thornton (1215), 5. Ron Francis (1193), 6. Sidney Crosby (1138), 7. Mark Messier (1104), 8. Adam Oates (1065), 9. Ray Bourque (1058), 10. Joe Sakic (1036)

www.hockey-reference.com

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Ovechkin's only hockey aspect is goal scoring. Just because he's top 3 in hits during his generation doesn't mean he's physical. In fact Ovechkin does NOT have a physical aspect to his game because ______________.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

I look forward to you at least making even slightest effort to defend your "one dimensional" falsehood. I mean, you won't because you can't, but I hereby extend the invitation anyway.

And here he is...of course

OV is 1.09 Pts/Gm in his career.
Sid is 1.25 Pts/Gm in his career.

Seeing as Pts are equal regardless of it being an assist or a goal. It's pretty clear which player has helped their team more in their career.

Over an 82 game season Sid averages 102.5 pts. OV averages 89.39 pts. A difference of over 13 Pts. Which could help their team win almost 13 more hockey games. Which is the goal.

 

[Golden_Jet]

And here he is...of course

OV is 1.09 Pts/Gm in his career.
Sid is 1.25 Pts/Gm in his career.

Seeing as Pts are equal regardless of it being an assist or a goal. It's pretty clear which player has helped their team more in their career.

Over an 82 game season Sid averages 102.5 pts. OV averages 89.39 pts. A difference of over 13 Pts. Which could help their team win almost 13 more hockey games. Which is the goal.

Pace is nice and all, but if you’re not available to play, you don’t get any points.

So actually works out to about 2 points a year, when actually available to play.

 

[Crow]

Nobody has addressed the fact that he's still an elite goal scorer at 39 years old. Who else besides Howe has done this?



Come on. Bourque above Ovie? What's the reasoning there.

No one in NHL history (outside of Howe) has had Bourque’s combination of consistently elite offense, defense, and longevity. From his rookie year to his 22nd and last year he was a top d man in the league with Norris finishes of:

1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4, 4, and more (I give up)

Over 400 goals, 1579 points good for 12th all time though ovi will pass him this year.

To me he is quite clearly the 2nd best d man of all time though others are close behind (Harvey and Lidstrom).

 

[jigglysquishy]

There's a pretty big gap between 4 and 5. And I think there are a bunch of names that you can throw at 5 that are defendable. Chronologically,

Maurice Richard
Pros
Highest goal scoring playoff peak of any individual player. One of the best playoff performers ever, arguably as high as 1.
Was a top 2 winger in the game from ~1944-1957
Contemporary opinion was glowing. In 1960 was generally considered the greatest player of all time.

Cons
Never led the league in points. Only 1 Hart. He is a couple injuries/suspensions for multiples though.
50-in-50 was during a very weak war year. It has a huge legend, but wasn't his best season.
True contemporary opinion is less glowing. During his prime of ~1944-1952 he isn't spoken of as highly as in 1960-2000. His cultural legend outweighs his on ice legend.
Weak defensively.

Overall, a weak case for #5, but it's there. You'd have to really love goal scoring in the playoffs.


Doug Harvey
Pros
7 Norrises and arguably the highest non-Orr peak of all time. Generally considered the best goal ever throughout his prime.
Absurd defensive play
Left the dynasty Habs and still won a Norris on a weak Rangers team while finishing second in Hart

Cons
Weak offense compared to immediate predecessor Kelly. In the context of the era, it's strong but not otherworldly strong.
We were robbed of several series because of his personal demons.
Only one season of note away from a dynasty and all time great goalie.

Overall, an okay argument for five. If you believe you was the straw that stirred the drink of the 50s Habs dynasty it's a good sell.


Jean Beliveau
Pros
Arguably best single season outside the Big Four. Arguably best single playoff too (both 1956)
Consistent offense, strong defense. The model defenseman for 15 years. Amazing Hart record.
Elite into his late 30s, including the 1971 Cup. Contemporary opinion is glowing.
Best forward on two Habs dynasties

Cons
"Only" 1 Art Ross
Some down seasons in the mid 60s.
The contract situation meant he jumped to the NHL late.
Functionally played every shift of his career with multiple HHOF teammates.

Overall, I think the best overall case for 5. Strong offense. Strong defense. Strong peak. Strong longevity. 10 Cups with most being a key contributor. Everything you want out of a player.


Bobby Hull
Pros
High offensive peak with multiple Art Rosses, 7 Richards, and a decade of dominance. Arguably best goal scoring season of all time.
Most visually dominant player outside Orr and McDavid.
Competent defensively.
Multiple good playoff runs, including 1971 where he almost one-manned a Cup

Cons
Lost prime trophies to teammate Mikita
1 Cup will always sting, even if it's primarily a depth problem
Could coast in regular season
Good but not great playmaker.

Overall, okay argument for 5. You'd have to really favour offense to put him there with a lean to goalscoring.


Jaromir Jagr
Pros
7x top 2 in points with a possession heavy style.
Arguably best non Big Four season ever in 1999.
Strong Cup performance in 1992 and elite ones on late 90s awful Penguins teams.
Played forever

Cons
Spent half his prime the second best player on his line.
No signature playoffs.
Quit on the Penguins in 2000 before Lemieux returned. Half assed his time on the Capitals.
Only widely considered best player in the world for a short period of time.

Overall, a pretty weak argument for five. You'd have to be offense only with a high emphasis on longevity.


Alex Ovechkin
Very high peak, three years in a row winning the Pearson and leading in PPG.
Arguably best goal scoring season ever with consensus best goal scoring longevity ever.
Strong playoff performer, particularly 2009
Tremendous physical force that could tilt the game with hits, particularly in his prime.
Some of the best longevity and availability in the sport's history

Cons
Never a serious Art Ross threat after 2010 and some very weak assist seasons
Shortest prime of any contender for 5, though he was still able to lead the league in goals after his steep decline
Outside goals, very little of note after 2010

Overall, a weak argument for 5. The argument rests on goals alone.


Sidney Crosby
Pros
High peak, absurd prime, strong longevity. Good goalscorer, great playmaker, competent defensively, strong possession game. Just does everything well.
Consistently led league in PPG for years and was widely viewed as best player in the league.
Strong playoff performer

Cons
Missed 75% of the games during his peak seasons
Some fairly weak SCFs
Small individual trophy case for #5

Overall, a good argument for 5. I think him and Beliveau are the best current arguments. Just does everything right.


Connor McDavid
Pros
5 Art Rosses, 3 Harts, an obscene peak. Strong argument for best season outside the Big Four (2023). Consistently does things people thought were impossible
Strong playoff resume with two extremely strong runs.
Widely known as the best player in the world for nearly a decade

Cons
Hasn't won a Cup
Is 27
Weakest defensively of the three centres in contention

Overall, I think most people view him as heir apparent for #5. But he's not there yet.


Some people will argue for Roy and Hasek at 5 but I think the argument for a goalie there is weak.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

@jigglysquishy I had my finger hovering over the "like" button and then you had to finish with that attack on goalies.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Seeing as Pts are equal regardless of it being an assist or a goal.

That is an assumption on your part. There are roughly 1.7 assists for every goal. They certainly aren’t equal in terms of scarcity, never mind the many times that the goal scorer is refused an assist for no reason other than them having scored the goal.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

There's a pretty big gap between 4 and 5. And I think there are a bunch of names that you can throw at 5 that are defendable. Chronologically,

Maurice Richard
Pros
Highest goal scoring playoff peak of any individual player. One of the best playoff performers ever, arguably as high as 1.
Was a top 2 winger in the game from ~1944-1957
Contemporary opinion was glowing. In 1960 was generally considered the greatest player of all time.

Cons
Never led the league in points. Only 1 Hart. He is a couple injuries/suspensions for multiples though.
50-in-50 was during a very weak war year. It has a huge legend, but wasn't his best season.
True contemporary opinion is less glowing. During his prime of ~1944-1952 he isn't spoken of as highly as in 1960-2000. His cultural legend outweighs his on ice legend.
Weak defensively.

Overall, a weak case for #5, but it's there. You'd have to really love goal scoring in the playoffs.


Doug Harvey
Pros
7 Norrises and arguably the highest non-Orr peak of all time. Generally considered the best goal ever throughout his prime.
Absurd defensive play
Left the dynasty Habs and still won a Norris on a weak Rangers team while finishing second in Hart

Cons
Weak offense compared to immediate predecessor Kelly. In the context of the era, it's strong but not otherworldly strong.
We were robbed of several series because of his personal demons.
Only one season of note away from a dynasty and all time great goalie.

Overall, an okay argument for five. If you believe you was the straw that stirred the drink of the 50s Habs dynasty it's a good sell.


Jean Beliveau
Pros
Arguably best single season outside the Big Four. Arguably best single playoff too (both 1956)
Consistent offense, strong defense. The model defenseman for 15 years. Amazing Hart record.
Elite into his late 30s, including the 1971 Cup. Contemporary opinion is glowing.
Best forward on two Habs dynasties

Cons
"Only" 1 Art Ross
Some down seasons in the mid 60s.
The contract situation meant he jumped to the NHL late.
Functionally played every shift of his career with multiple HHOF teammates.

Overall, I think the best overall case for 5. Strong offense. Strong defense. Strong peak. Strong longevity. 10 Cups with most being a key contributor. Everything you want out of a player.


Bobby Hull
Pros
High offensive peak with multiple Art Rosses, 7 Richards, and a decade of dominance. Arguably best goal scoring season of all time.
Most visually dominant player outside Orr and McDavid.
Competent defensively.
Multiple good playoff runs, including 1971 where he almost one-manned a Cup

Cons
Lost prime trophies to teammate Mikita
1 Cup will always sting, even if it's primarily a depth problem
Could coast in regular season
Good but not great playmaker.

Overall, okay argument for 5. You'd have to really favour offense to put him there with a lean to goalscoring.


Jaromir Jagr
Pros
7x top 2 in points with a possession heavy style.
Arguably best non Big Four season ever in 1999.
Strong Cup performance in 1992 and elite ones on late 90s awful Penguins teams.
Played forever

Cons
Spent half his prime the second best player on his line.
No signature playoffs.
Quit on the Penguins in 2000 before Lemieux returned. Half assed his time on the Capitals.
Only widely considered best player in the world for a short period of time.

Overall, a pretty weak argument for five. You'd have to be offense only with a high emphasis on longevity.


Alex Ovechkin
Very high peak, three years in a row winning the Pearson and leading in PPG.
Arguably best goal scoring season ever with consensus best goal scoring longevity ever.
Strong playoff performer, particularly 2009
Tremendous physical force that could tilt the game with hits, particularly in his prime.
Some of the best longevity and availability in the sport's history

Cons
Never a serious Art Ross threat after 2010 and some very weak assist seasons
Shortest prime of any contender for 5, though he was still able to lead the league in goals after his steep decline
Outside goals, very little of note after 2010

Overall, a weak argument for 5. The argument rests on goals alone.


Sidney Crosby
Pros
High peak, absurd prime, strong longevity. Good goalscorer, great playmaker, competent defensively, strong possession game. Just does everything well.
Consistently led league in PPG for years and was widely viewed as best player in the league.
Strong playoff performer

Cons
Missed 75% of the games during his peak seasons
Some fairly weak SCFs
Small individual trophy case for #5

Overall, a good argument for 5. I think him and Beliveau are the best current arguments. Just does everything right.


Connor McDavid
Pros
5 Art Rosses, 3 Harts, an obscene peak. Strong argument for best season outside the Big Four (2023). Consistently does things people thought were impossible
Strong playoff resume with two extremely strong runs.
Widely known as the best player in the world for nearly a decade

Cons
Hasn't won a Cup
Is 27
Weakest defensively of the three centres in contention

Overall, I think most people view him as heir apparent for #5. But he's not there yet.


Some people will argue for Roy and Hasek at 5 but I think the argument for a goalie there is weak.

This is a really good high-level summary.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

He has the most hits among non-goons, so, obviously.