Is NYC just not an environment conducive to winning?

[Machinehead]

I don't know how much I buy the whole "the market isn't gonna want a rebuild" thing.

What's gonna happen? They're gonna stop selling tickets to Leafs and Rangers games? They're gonna f***in relocate?

If anything, I think there's more pressure on non-traditional markets to actually get people to come down to the arena, because they might lose the team.

In 2018-19, the Rangers drew well over 17,000 a night mid-teardown, going 32-36-14, pre-Panarin.

The Rangers, possibly more than any other team in the league, have carte blanche to tear it down if they wanted to. They will never lose that team.

Lack of patience is self-imposed by the people running the team, not a factor of the environment.

 

[noncents]

Out of all the current administrations, I see only David Stearns as someone who can get it done and it's going to be tricky for the Mets because their pitching is not strong compared to the NL West teams.

mets pitching with the best era in baseball. we can all be sure that will not change.

 

[dshea19]

The owner of the Rangers is not conducive to winning.

 

[mandiblesofdoom]

Which is why players want to play in NYC and not in Toronto (or any Canadian city).

But the attitudes towards management and lack of patience are similar.

Theres a reason why the only teams that win these days are from places where no one cares about hockey.

Yeah, it's like they have to build a winning team (to attract fans), and we only have to assemble an "exciting" team (to entertain fans that already exist). I think you are onto something.

 

[Machinehead]

Yeah, it's like they have to build a winning team, and we only have to assemble an "exciting" team. I think you are onto something.

I see a bit of that, and I do think it's an issue, but again, this is self-imposed.

Especially the idea that the two are exclusive to each other. That's just bad ideology. People get excited about winning more than anything else.

 

[mandiblesofdoom]

I see a bit of that, and I do think it's an issue, but again, this is self-imposed.

Especially the idea that the two are exclusive to each other. That's just bad ideology. People get excited about winning more than anything else.

I don't think they're exclusive. My impression is that NYR management (and maybe Toronto's) has learned that they can make money without actually building a great team, because the fan base is so large & loyal. And so this management style grows up to suit that reality.

 

[DaBadGuy7]

I don't know how much I buy the whole "the market isn't gonna want a rebuild" thing.

What's gonna happen? They're gonna stop selling tickets to Leafs and Rangers games? They're gonna f***in relocate?

If anything, I think there's more pressure on non-traditional markets to actually get people to come down to the arena, because they might lose the team.

In 2018-19, the Rangers drew well over 17,000 a night mid-teardown, going 32-36-14, pre-Panarin.

The Rangers, possibly more than any other team in the league, have carte blanche to tear it down if they wanted to. They will never lose that team.

Lack of patience is self-imposed by the people running the team, not a factor of the environment.

Yea, I agree, it’s a lazy NYC sports talk radio point imo. New York sports fans are smart and savvy enough to understand a re-build as long as the execution and planning goes well. It’s that some of the owners are both greedy and impatient to do it all the way. Look at the fake re-build starting in 2018, as soon as they were shiny toys available, they pounce on Panarin and traded for Trouba. I argue accelerating the re-build doomed Gorton/JD and likely had they been more patient maybe Dolan doesn’t hastily fires them if that Wilson incident doesn’t happen.

 

[mandiblesofdoom]

Yea, I agree, it’s a lazy NYC sports talk radio point imo. New York sports fans are smart and savvy enough to understand a re-build as long as the execution and planning goes well. It’s that some of the owners are both greedy and impatient to do it all the way. Look at the fake re-build starting in 2018, as soon as they were shiny toys available, they pounce on Panarin and traded for Trouba. I argue accelerating the re-build doomed Gorton/JD and likely had they been more patient maybe Dolan doesn’t hastily fires them if that Wilson incident doesn’t happen.

This is so true. They say it with authority (or they used to, when I listened). Even though it doesn't make sense. Why should we be any less patient than any other fans? I would love to see NYR management do sensible things.

 

[Machinehead]

I don't think they're exclusive. My impression is that NYR management (and maybe Toronto's) has learned that they can make money without actually building a great team, because the fan base is so large & loyal. And so this management style grows up to suit that reality.

Yeah but why not also build a great team? I don't think you're giving anything up by doing that.

I think they're just incompetent.

 

[McRanger92]

Ownership is the problem for most of the NY teams. The only owner currently who "gets it" is Steve Cohen.

 

[Raspewtin]

Yeah but why not also build a great team? I don't think you're giving anything up by doing that.

I think they're just incompetent.

years of playoff revenue

I worked in the sports space for a while and had visibility into this stuff. playoff revenue is pure extra cash. pure profit. getting 6 playoff home games a year is worth a lot. hockey is a mature sport with high entry barrier and limited avenues to growth. every league is basically losing to the NFL right now in marketability and cultural relevance for a variety of reasons.

the Rangers are already one of the richest and culturally relevant teams in the league. Dolan probably sees 3 years of no playoffs followed by 5-6 years of "potential playoffs", as opposed to the much more sure thing, as not acceptable. The Rangers winning another ring probably wouldn't meaningfully move the needle on the organization. They are already the richest US team in the sport and the 2nd most profitable. this isn't a Panthers situation where their cup win/finals runs put them on the map in an unfavorable sports market.

Dolan, like a strong majority of owners, like the "guaranteed" profit over short term loss for long term gain. probably as simple as that. Also doesn't help that perpetual rebuilds have legitimately damaging effects on brands that aren't as solid (see; Sabres, Buffalo).

 

[Raspewtin]

Ownership is the problem for most of the NY teams. The only owner currently who "gets it" is Steve Cohen.

Steve Cohen also has more money to play with than every non-Dodgers team combined and has two playoff appearances on his resume to date.
He didn't always "get it"

 

[McRanger92]

Steve Cohen also has more money to play with than every non-Dodgers team combined and has one playoff appearance on his resume to date.
He didn't always "get it"

2 playoff appearances in 4 years. Are you a Mets fan? The difference between him and the Wilpons in how the team and infrastructure are run is night and day.

 

[Raspewtin]

2 playoff appearances in 4 years. Are you a Mets fan? The difference between him and the Wilpons in how the team and infrastructure are run is night and day.

yeah I was wrong on the 1 - edited as I forgot about '22.

I'm sure a lot is better since the Wilpons were one of the worst ownership groups in sports, but, Cohen's Mets have a 53% win percentage in the only NA sport where money is not an equalizer. he's doing some good stuff but I don't see what does he get that other NY owners don't?

 

[Machinehead]

years of playoff revenue

I worked in the sports space for a while and had visibility into this stuff. playoff revenue is pure extra cash. pure profit. getting 6 playoff home games a year is worth a lot. hockey is a mature sport with high entry barrier and limited avenues to growth. every league is basically losing to the NFL right now in marketability and cultural relevance for a variety of reasons.

the Rangers are already one of the richest and culturally relevant teams in the league. Dolan probably sees 3 years of no playoffs followed by 5-6 years of "potential playoffs", as opposed to the much more sure thing, as not acceptable. The Rangers winning another ring probably wouldn't meaningfully move the needle on the organization. They are already the richest US team in the sport and the 2nd most profitable. this isn't a Panthers situation where their cup win/finals runs put them on the map in an unfavorable sports market.

Dolan, like a strong majority of owners, like the "guaranteed" profit over short term loss for long term gain. probably as simple as that. Also doesn't help that perpetual rebuilds have legitimately damaging effects on brands that aren't as solid (see; Sabres, Buffalo).

Yes, I do see that being an issue. However, every owner wants to make profit, so I don't know to what extent we're predisposed to that over anyone else -- not to the point where it should be debilitating.

The fact is, New York teams have won, which makes this topic pretty open and shut. People can "yeah, but" all they want but it has happened.

For people who love bringing up the country club culture of this team, this board really hates holding the Rangers accountable sometimes.

 

[mandiblesofdoom]

Yeah but why not also build a great team? I don't think you're giving anything up by doing that.

I think they're just incompetent.

They're incompetent at building a great team, sure. But they're not incompetent at making money.

In Toronto & NY those things aren't a perfect overlap.

 

[Kane One]

YOU may have done that, and good for you, so that wasn't necessarily directed at you, but generally speaking, I've been told it doesn't count.

And that's fine if it doesn't matter to you, just like I don't expect @Kane One or @Bob Richards to be satisfied that the Yankees went to the World Series, but it still goes against the premise of the thread.

Also, I get what you're saying about numbers, but like...we're talking about the NHL, sorry. I've seen every one of the Liberty's three big stars on commercials on national tv, and on billboards around the city. I've never seen Artemi Panarin, Igor Shesterkin, or Mika Zibanejad advertise to me.

If the WNBA doesn't count because it's niche then the NHL doesn't count because it's niche.

This thread is silly. The Rangers don't win because of the Rangers.

Not only would I not be satisfied, I’d be livid if they had won.

 

[Machinehead]

Not only would I not be satisfied, I’d be livid if they had won.

That's the spirit!

 

[Kane One]

That's the spirit!

But you make a point though. NYC has nothing to do with why the Rangers don’t win. It’s the perfect place for players.

I remember in 2011ish, my brother told was walking down the street and saw Brad Richards while no one else recognized him and another player he didn’t recognize. (He later described how he looked and I immediately told him he was Steve Eminger).

If you can be Brad Richards with his money and have hardly anyone in Manhattan recognize you, that’s the f***ing dream anonymity-to-wealth ratio.

 

[Whoot Whoot]

It is tempting to think this but LA (where I live) has as many insane fans as NY (in baseball specifically) and they win here

 

[Cmox]

I think it definitely is an NYC problem. I see the “it’s not the city, it’s the management,” but the management is taking on the NYC attitude/problem of only speedy results, and waiting isn’t an option. Everything needs to be right now. The patience needed with a rebuild just won't happen in NY.

 

[Machinehead]

I think it definitely is an NYC problem. I see the “it’s not the city, it’s the management,” but the management is taking on the NYC attitude/problem of only speedy results, and waiting isn’t an option. Everything needs to be right now. The patience needed with a rebuild just won't happen in NY.

The Giants have been in a rebuild for 12 years and the Jets have been in a rebuild for 60 years. I don't see them losing fans.

 

[Raspewtin]

I think it definitely is an NYC problem. I see the “it’s not the city, it’s the management,” but the management is taking on the NYC attitude/problem of only speedy results, and waiting isn’t an option. Everything needs to be right now. The patience needed with a rebuild just won't happen in NY.

what team in NY has this problem, that they are beholden to the impatience of new yorkers and not shite managers?