Is NYC just not an environment conducive to winning?

[Row I Goon]

How I envision Lavi as a police detective after this year. All disheveled and dejected, some very questionable decision making throughout the year and no longer cares.

EDIT***

Title: Blueshirt Breakdown
Synopsis:

The room smelled like cold coffee, burnt cigarettes, and regret — the holy trinity of another failed campaign. Detective Laviolette sat behind a desk that hadn’t seen victory in weeks, badge crooked, tie looser than his defensive zone coverage. He poured a splash of cheap whiskey into his coffee mug — not for the taste, but to forget the taste of losing.

The case? A high-profile squad with Stanley Cup dreams turned cold. Promising leads named Panarin, Zibanejad, and Shesterkin—each one vanished when the lights got bright. Somewhere between the power play fizzling and the locker room going silent, Laviolette lost the plot. Now, he’s just another beat-down gumshoe in a city that eats its coaches alive.

Outside, the Garden still glowed, but inside, Laviolette knew: the city never sleeps… and it never forgets another blown season.

Fade to black.

Credit all to ChatGPT

 

[n8]

Well besides the Liberty last year and the NYFC in 2021 who both get a lot less coverage, we'd had nothing since the Giants beat the Patriots in January 2012 while all the cities in the Northeast other than Baltimore have had multiple championships...and even Baltimore won the Super Bowl in 2013.

The Knicks actually making it into the playoffs in 3 consecutive season, and 4 of the last 5 is a start. We collectively waited 54 years for our last Cup. But I'm not sure why you are bring this up. New Yorkers love a winner but you don't need to at me to tell me we haven't won much lately.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Think about it, are these guys really a "team" or do they look like a bunch of young rich guys thinking about the next night out? The City offers more distractions than just about any other place to play. Do we need a modern Torts (modern as in toned down) to create another winning culture in a place like New York? Even with management: Slats for example, always seemed be after the next big name player for people to go watch, like they're the Knicks or something. That's just not how you build a team. For everyone saying thank god NYC is such a beloved destination, does that kind of cancel itself out at this point? People come here for all the good it offers off the ice, the clout and a huge paycheck. Not to win.

Or is something just in the water?

No. The problem isn't New York City. It's bad management.

The Yankees have 27 championships. The Giants beat the best team and best QB in the world in the Super Bowl twice in the span of 5 years.

The problem with the Rangers, is a Rangers problem. New York City isn't a big hockey market. There's not more pressure than in cities like Toronto, Boston, Detroit, Montreal etc. New York is a big sports market, not a big hockey market.

Adam Fox can walk 2 blocks away from MSG and 99% of people wouldn't recognise him.

The problem the Rangers have had for the last few decades is that they simply do not know how to construct a team the right way, in the salary cap. That has nothing to do with where the arena is located.

 

[94leetch]

I don't think it's a city thing, I think it's a young talent thing.
This organization is like the couple who are throwing a dinner party for five couples, some of whom have kids. They delicately let it be known that they'd prefer it to be adults only but one couple either don't take the hint or just have to bring them. The kids are tolerated but not really welcome.

 

[OriginalLimbo]

For NYR - if talking about winning games, the answer is no, just look at the record for the last 55 years. I believe that NYR is way above average.

If talking about winning cups, you can blame whatever you want. The fact that multiple owners and multiple management teams and hundreds of players have been able to replicate the almost same exact results over that long time frame is pretty interesting. Maybe it’s the tap water at the Garden.

 

[CasusBelli]

I'd be surprised if the players in the Devils dynasties all lived in NJ. I'd be further surprised if most of their social lives weren't in the City. The Isles also did nicely in the '80s. The Yankees have quite the legacy. I maintain it's an ownership issue: Maximize probability of winning today irrespective of impact on winning tomorrow ("in the long run we're all dead" mentality).

 

[CasusBelli]

For NYR - if talking about winning games, the answer is no, just look at the record for the last 55 years. I believe that NYR is way above average.

If talking about winning cups, you can blame whatever you want. The fact that multiple owners and multiple management teams and hundreds of players have been able to replicate the almost same exact results over that long time frame is pretty interesting. Maybe it’s the tap water at the Garden.

This is intriguing and reminds me of Toronto. This leads back to the question: are the spotlight and scrutiny simply too much for most players?

 

[Machinehead]

This is intriguing and reminds me of Toronto. This leads back to the question: are the spotlight and scrutiny simply too much for most players?

There isn't all that much.

If the Rangers won the Cup, WFAN would be talking about Brett Baty going 0-3 the next day.

 

[HellOnIce]

I'd be surprised if the players in the Devils dynasties all lived in NJ. I'd be further surprised if most of their social lives weren't in the City. The Isles also did nicely in the '80s. The Yankees have quite the legacy. I maintain it's an ownership issue: Maximize probability of winning today irrespective of impact on winning tomorrow ("in the long run we're all dead" mentality).

They all lived in NJ, back then actually even further away from the city than they do now. They all used to live in Essex/Morris counties back then. Now, the single/newly married guys are in Hoboken/Jersey City - spend a lot of time in the city. The families are in places are like Summit, Millburn, Short Hills, Westfield, etc.

Outside perspective from NJ Fan. It's hard to win, and it takes a lot of things coming together the right way. Kakko was ranked 2nd, Lafrienere 1st - and if you didn't take either of those guys - GM would have been killed if they panned out and the guy you did pick was meh. Now you're dealing with that fall out, not to mention the Kravstov/Andersson picks not being what you needed. Devils are experiencing that too to a lesser extent where the top guys are cornerstones, but the Holtz/Nemec/Mercer aren't that great.

In terms of patience - everyone on these boards would be happy for building the right way and taking the time. There's no real pressure for the NYR hockey team to win from the city. They aren't the Yankees or Mets or Knicks or Giants or Jets. No one cares all that much. Dolan probably the closest impatient answer here. You could argue a cooler head from Dolan leads to Gorton staying and/or a different GM who made better moves than Drury did to push this past core over the top.

 

[CasusBelli]

They all lived in NJ, back then actually even further away from the city than they do now. They all used to live in Essex/Morris counties back then. Now, the single/newly married guys are in Hoboken/Jersey City - spend a lot of time in the city. The families are in places are like Summit, Millburn, Short Hills, Westfield, etc.

Outside perspective from NJ Fan. It's hard to win, and it takes a lot of things coming together the right way. Kakko was ranked 2nd, Lafrienere 1st - and if you didn't take either of those guys - GM would have been killed if they panned out and the guy you did pick was meh.

In terms of patience - everyone on these boards would be happy for building the right way and taking the time. There's no real pressure for the NYR hockey team to win from the city. They aren't the Yankees or Mets or Knicks or Giants or Jets. No one cares all that much. Dolan probably the closest impatient answer here. You could argue a cooler head from Dolan leads to Gorton staying and/or a different GM who made better moves than Drury did to push this past core over the top.

I'm actually shocked. Is there a requirement that you must live in the state in which you play? I too would want to avoid city tax, but if I were in my 20s with a juicy contract, I'd likely opt for city life. Then again, my boss used to see Kreider at Bagatelle pretty regularly, so maybe city life does have something to do with it after all lol.

Thanks for chiming in btw. Really appreciate an outside perspective!

 

[OriginalLimbo]

This is intriguing and reminds me of Toronto. This leads back to the question: are the spotlight and scrutiny simply too much for most players?

I think that does happen with some players, but probably not a lot. These guys are pros and most, especially the stars, have had some kind of spotlight on them their whole lives.

I agree that NYR and TML have a lot in common here. Why is this a multi generational thing for both these orgs? I guess you could point to obvious similarities: big market, need to sell out every game, mainly owned by bottom line corps. Why have they both made non-cup winning decisions for over half a century? TBH - I have no clue, lol. I can’t wrap my head around that much crazy. 2+2 = 3 literally hurts my brain. It’s like gazing on the visage of Cthulhu - the human mind can’t comprehend such insanity, haha. The answer lies somewhere in the madness that leads to getting 1.5 years and 5 playoff games of Tom Kurvers for the pick that turned into Scott Niedermayer. Start there and work backwards…if you dare….

 

[Machinehead]

I think that does happen with some players, but probably not a lot. These guys are pros and most, especially the stars, have had some kind of spotlight on them their whole lives.

I agree that NYR and TML have a lot in common here. Why is this a multi generational thing for both these orgs? I guess you could point to obvious similarities: big market, need to sell out every game, mainly owned by bottom line corps. Why have they both made non-cup winning decisions for over half a century? TBH - I have no clue, lol. I can’t wrap my head around that much crazy. 2+2 = 3 literally hurts my brain. It’s like gazing on the visage of Cthulhu - the human mind can’t comprehend such insanity, haha. The answer lies somewhere in the madness that leads to getting 1.5 years and 5 playoff games of Tom Kurvers for the pick that turned into Scott Niedermayer. Start there and work backwards…if you dare….

Well, with Toronto, I think it's more fair to look at their roster and wonder what the issue is. Granted, they haven't given all those high-priced forwards a legit top pairing defenseman their entire careers so there's that.

With the Rangers under Drury, it's like, "oh gee, the 14th best team in the league didn't win the Stanley Cup; maybe something is wrong with the water."

 

[OriginalLimbo]

Well, with Toronto, I think it's more fair to look at their roster and wonder what the issue is. Granted, they haven't given all those high-priced forwards a legit top pairing defenseman their entire careers so there's that.

With the Rangers under Drury, it's like, "oh gee, the 14th best team in the league didn't win the Stanley Cup; maybe something is wrong with the water."

We (well, at least I am, lol) are talking about a foundational issue. Drury is just the flavor of the month. He’s John Ferguson with a better suit. He’s not the disease, he’s the symptom. Why do you think NYR (and similarly, maybe TML) have been rehashing the same shit since the late 60s? The orgs seem to be genetically disposed to hiring non-cup winning decision makers. Why?

 

[Machinehead]

We (well, at least I am, lol) are talking about a foundational issue. Drury is just the flavor of the month. He’s John Ferguson with a better suit. He’s not the disease, he’s the symptom. Why do you think NYR (and similarly, maybe TML) have been rehashing the same shit since the late 60s? The orgs seem to be genetically disposed to hiring non-cup winning decision makers. Why?

I think, if you wanna go back all that time, a lot of those people are dead, and I don't necessarily believe in the hocus pocus.

As far as the last 25 years are concerned, Gorton was Sather's assistant, and Drury was Gorton's assistant plus GM of Hartford. We haven't made a hire at general manager outside of the organization in over two decades.

We keep drinking from the same well and wondering why nothing changes.

"Oh, the Yankees haven't won since 2009, must be hard to win here now!"

The Yankees haven't hired a GM since 1998 and he's been working with the team since 1986. He has a demonstrated inability to win the World Series for 15 years and yet he keeps running the team.

These problems aren't hard to figure out.

As @Bob Richards said, we're sitting here looking for grand solutions to "the team isn't very good."

 

[OriginalLimbo]

We keep drinking from the same well and wondering why nothing changes.

So, it IS the “water”, haha.

 

[majordomo]

The problem the Rangers have had for the last few decades is that they simply do not know how to construct a team the right way, in the salary cap. That has nothing to do with where the arena is located.

This problem goes beyond the "last few decades". For as long as I can remember, Rangers have always used the "squeeze square pegs into round holes" method of team building....they acquire players (read "stars", "latest hot player") without regard to what is needed. They aren't a team, they're just a collection of players thrown together willy-nilly and expected to win.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

There isn't all that much.

If the Rangers won the Cup, WFAN would be talking about Brett Baty going 0-3 the next day.

this is an exaggeration.
During the 7-0 start to the playoffs last season the radio stations couldn't get enough of the Rangers. And not just the Don LaGreca's and Evan Roberts who are hockey guys. Everyone. It was pretty cool.

 

[Megustaelhockey]

this is an exaggeration.
During the 7-0 start to the playoffs last season the radio stations couldn't get enough of the Rangers. And not just the Don LaGreca's and Evan Roberts who are hockey guys. Everyone. It was pretty cool.

Agreed. There are a number of the usual dead wrong takes in here. When the Rangers are good, they are relevant.

 

[mandiblesofdoom]

This is intriguing and reminds me of Toronto. This leads back to the question: are the spotlight and scrutiny simply too much for most players?

There is not a big spotlight & scrutiny on hockey here. It's definitely worse in Canada, and probably worse in Boston, Detroit, Minnesota, Buffalo.

Hockey is an afterthought in NYC.

 

[Megustaelhockey]

There is not a big spotlight & scrutiny on hockey here. It's definitely worse in Canada, and probably worse in Boston, Detroit, Minnesota, Buffalo.

Hockey is an afterthought in NYC.

Hockey is an overwhelmingly white sport played by people with more disposable income. Between this and more competition for sports fandom than in any other city on earth, no one can be surprised.

As long as the teams make money, who f***ing cares how much of an afterthought it is?

 

[mandiblesofdoom]

I think that does happen with some players, but probably not a lot. These guys are pros and most, especially the stars, have had some kind of spotlight on them their whole lives.

I agree that NYR and TML have a lot in common here. Why is this a multi generational thing for both these orgs? I guess you could point to obvious similarities: big market, need to sell out every game, mainly owned by bottom line corps. Why have they both made non-cup winning decisions for over half a century? TBH - I have no clue, lol. I can’t wrap my head around that much crazy. 2+2 = 3 literally hurts my brain. It’s like gazing on the visage of Cthulhu - the human mind can’t comprehend such insanity, haha. The answer lies somewhere in the madness that leads to getting 1.5 years and 5 playoff games of Tom Kurvers for the pick that turned into Scott Niedermayer. Start there and work backwards…if you dare….

We're similar to Toronto in that we have a ton of loyal fans (who are desperate for good news & can be conned by the team), which leads to tolerance of bad management & "Potemkin team-building." However the public attention on hockey is much bigger deal in TO. Here our guys have a lot of anonymity. The Leafs get attention all over Canada.

 

[mandiblesofdoom]

This problem goes beyond the "last few decades". For as long as I can remember, Rangers have always used the "squeeze square pegs into round holes" method of team building....they acquire players (read "stars", "latest hot player") without regard to what is needed. They aren't a team, they're just a collection of players thrown together willy-nilly and expected to win.

Yeah. Except they're not really expected to win it all. They're expected to create a buzz, give fans something to talk about, and hopefully make the playoffs. I'm sure the organization makes money with this program, and that's fine with them.

 

[Machinehead]

Hockey is an overwhelmingly white sport played by people with more disposable income. Between this and more competition for sports fandom than in any other city on earth, no one can be surprised.

As long as the teams make money, who f***ing cares how much of an afterthought it is?

It doesn't matter to me at all how much of an afterthought anything is.

The point is, relevant to the thread, I don't think New York is a particular pressure cooker when it comes to hockey, certainly compared with Canada and maybe even a couple of spots in the US.

In fact, I think relative anonymity would be one of the draws if one were to consider signing with the Rangers.

Yeah, if the team is good, they're gonna be relevant. The difference is, it's not back page material every single day when the team is bad and that's where the pressure comes from.

 

[Takeahnase]

Despite necrophilia on the subway, NYC is conducive to winning. It’s the organizations not the cities.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

We're similar to Toronto in that we have a ton of loyal fans (who are desperate for good news & can be conned by the team), which leads to tolerance of bad management & "Potemkin team-building." However the public attention on hockey is much bigger deal in TO. Here our guys have a lot of anonymity. The Leafs get attention all over Canada.

Which is why players want to play in NYC and not in Toronto (or any Canadian city).

But the attitudes towards management and lack of patience are similar.

Theres a reason why the only teams that win these days are from places where no one cares about hockey.