Is Nathan MacKinnon Better Than Prime Yzerman?

[DitchMarner]

Which is fine (if complicated), but was 1990 Gretzky playing 73 games or 1994 Greztky, invincible outlier or just regular really good Art Ross winner, like a Malkin/Kane/Jagr/Mack/Kucherov in a big year are?

Take 1992 when this method give 2 spots to Yzerman, was post 30 Gretzky scoring 121 points with the Kings something special to take into account, Lemieux playing only 64 games with all those health issues ? 131 pts in that era was obviously good, but a Denis Savard, Yzerma, Lafontaine, Oates, Stastny, Bossy, Messier, Hull, Oates or Fedorov in a peak year on a good team could have won the Ross that year.

Yeah, that's a good point. I guess people have to judge for themselves whether a particular Gretzky, Lemieux or McDavid season (in Mackinnon's case) should be considered exceptional.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Yeah, that's a good point. I guess people have to judge for themselves whether a particular Gretzky, Lemieux or McDavid season (in Mackinnon's case) should be considered exceptional.

Why not just leave them in the sample and note the context?

 

[DitchMarner]

Why not just leave them in the sample and note the context?

Edited. I included an untampered sample as well.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Forsberg is the answer to the question: What if Lindros and Crosby had a son together?

I think MacKinnon is closer to that. The way he forces his way through the center of the ice and seems unstoppable at times is Lindros-esque to me. I wonder how he would've fared in the 90's when the defensemen loved to punish players going down that route. Forsberg and Crosby were/are more cerebral as I see it.

 

[Neutrinos]

I think MacKinnon is closer to that. The way he forces his way through the center of the ice and seems unstoppable at times is Lindros-esque to me. I wonder how he would've fared in the 90's when the defensemen loved to punish players going down that route. Forsberg and Crosby were/are more cerebral as I see it.

But MacKinnon is able to force his way through the center of the ice and seems unstoppable at times because he's an elite speedster - actually leading the NHL this past season in speed entering the offensive zone with the puck

Neither Lindros or Crosby had that in their game

 

[Michael Farkas]

What's the claim here? That Lindros and Crosby couldn't go through defenses or that they couldn't go through defenses as fast as MacKinnon...?

 

[The Panther]

1988 Hart voting would have been interesting if Yzerman hadn't crashed into the goal-post late in the season. He likely ends up with 63-ish goals, close to 130 points, and this playing with Gallant and Probert. Not only that, but his club finished fifth overall after having been one of the worst teams of all time just two seasons earlier. Not only that, but unlike, say, Mario, he played on a defence-first team.

I guess Mario still wins it, but it might have been close. Definitely Yzerman would have been no worse than second.

 

[daver]

Yeah, that's a good point. I guess people have to judge for themselves whether a particular Gretzky, Lemieux or McDavid season (in Mackinnon's case) should be considered exceptional.

The easy answer to this is to judge each player vs. the Top 5/10/25 scorers etc. and compare their relative dominance. This removes the affect that one or two players may have.

To be honest, anyone questioning Yzerman's 3rd place Art Ross finish in '89 as not being one of the best non-Big 4 seasons in NHL history isn't trying hard to enough to be objective.

As is not viewing MacKinnon's 23/24 as being among the best of his era.

That being said, both players put up peak offensive seasons that leaves one wondering if they should be among the best of non-Big 4 aka the 2nd Tier forwards (Hull, Beliveau, Richard, Jagr, Crosby) who are in the Top 10/15 players all-time or are in the 3rd tier with the likes of Trottier and Sakic in the Top 30/40 range.

Yzerman's peak season is up there with the best of the 2nd tier players, his three year peak is Lafleur-like in the % gap between him and the pack in PPG, but then drops off at age 25 to a Top 3/5ish player before morphing into an elite 2-way C into his 30's.

MacKinnon's peak season won a Hart and Lindsay against an almost peak McDavid, a season by Kucherov that was also "almost peak McDavid", and a generational goalscoring season by Matthews. Besides that, he had multiple seasons that placed him in the Top 3 in the league but lost a few chances for higher Art Ross finishes due to injury.

What value do we put on Mac's season given how some feel about McDavid being as close to Wayne/Mario level as any other player in history?

Yzerman's peak season wasn't particularly close to Wayne and Mario; Mac's was just behind McDavid's 22/23 season.

To answer the OP, they are quite close. Mac has sped his way into the Top 30/50 all-time calibre of player IMO.

 

[NordiquesForeva]

I think that prime MacKinnon is slightly better than prime Yzerman. Prime MacKinnon is up there as one of the 2-3 best players in the game, and has been for a few seasons now. I don't recall Yzerman ever reaching such heights (even excluding Gretzky and Lemieux, Yzerman was still competing with Bourque, Messier, Roy, Hull, and at times Lafontaine during his prime). MacKinnon has a terrific playoff record as well.

I do think that Yzerman had more diversity to his offensive game than does MacKinnon. I feel like sometimes MacKinnon's brain can't catch up with his feet and he skates himself out of plays. MacKinnon has some physical attributes that Yzerman clearly didn't have, but prime Yzerman was an amazing skater in his own right, aggressive on the rush, and wasn't shy about going to the dirty areas when necessary. I believe Yzerman thought the game better than MacKinnon does, creating more time and space for himself to make plays, as compared to MacKinnon who relies heavily on the afterburners and bullying his way past/through defenders. More subtlety in Yzerman's game (and even more in Sakic's game) vis-a-vis MacKinnon, but one certainly can't take anything away from MacKinnon's career so far. Quite a special player. Just a slight edge to Nate Dogg for me.

 

[Michael Farkas]

What do folks do with MacKinnon's first four seasons?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

What do folks do with MacKinnon's first four seasons?

MacKinnon did win the Calder as an 18-year-old.

The Avs were 9 games under .500 the season before. They were 30 games over .500 and MacKinnon played all 82 games his rookie year. His +20 was 2nd on the team, tied for the most points in playoffs on the team and played over 20 minutes a game.

While Yzerman scored more in his first 4 seasons, he was also -60 over those 4 seasons.

 

[MXD]

Yep.

 

[MXD]

What do folks do with MacKinnon's first four seasons?

I don't care, and no one should care, considering that question asked in the thread title.

 

[Dingo]

And it depend when post 1991 Gretzky does not need to be removed, pre 1988, post first retirement Mario... if you also remove McDavid.. but that could be a sign that it is not a particularly good way to look at it, the yearly finish, one thing an Yzerman has going for him was the prime in which he deliver every year, season after season.

One way to look at it, 22-28 years old Yzerman (88-94):

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Player	GP	G	A	P	+/-	P/GP
Mario Lemieux	384​	349​	514​	863​	134​	2.25​
Wayne Gretzky	493​	260​	678​	938​	61​	1.9​
Steve Yzerman	524​	355​	459​	814​	109​	1.55​
Adam Oates	514​	175​	527​	702​	55​	1.37​
Pat LaFontaine	460​	291​	338​	629​	2​	1.37​
Mark Messier	511​	213​	467​	680​	100​	1.33​
Brett Hull	535​	412​	287​	699​	-13​	1.31​
Luc Robitaille	561​	347​	372​	719​	26​	1.28​
Doug Gilmour	544​	191​	477​	668​	161​	1.23​
Mark Recchi	415​	207​	302​	509​	-18​	1.23​

Player	GP	G	A	P
Wayne Gretzky	493​	260​	678​	938​
Mario Lemieux	384​	349​	514​	863​
Steve Yzerman	524​	355​	459​	814​
Luc Robitaille	561​	347​	372​	719​
Adam Oates	514​	175​	527​	702​
Brett Hull	535​	412​	287​	699​
Mark Messier	511​	213​	467​	680​
Doug Gilmour	544​	191​	477​	668​
Dale Hawerchuk	553​	216​	451​	667​
Pierre Turgeon	543​	256​	380​	636​

2018-2024 Mack (22-28 years old)

Player	GP	G	A	P	+/-	P/GP
Connor McDavid	518​	289​	545​	834​	123​	1.61​
Leon Draisaitl	528​	297​	416​	713​	67​	1.35​
Nathan MacKinnon	491​	260​	433​	693​	152​	1.41​
Nikita Kucherov	440​	212​	427​	639​	72​	1.45​
Artemi Panarin	510​	204​	426​	630​	130​	1.24​
David Pastrnak	502​	289​	315​	604​	115​	1.2​
Auston Matthews	480​	328​	252​	580​	138​	1.21​
Mikko Rantanen	486​	242​	337​	579​	110​	1.19​
Mitch Marner	499​	175​	403​	578​	110​	1.16​
Sidney Crosby	490​	210​	359​	569​	52​	1.16​

Connor McDavid	518​	289​	545​	834​	123​	1.61​
Nikita Kucherov	440​	212​	427​	639​	72​	1.45​
Nathan MacKinnon	491​	260​	433​	693​	152​	1.41​
Leon Draisaitl	528​	297​	416​	713​	67​	1.35​
Artemi Panarin	510​	204​	426​	630​	130​	1.24​
Auston Matthews	480​	328​	252​	580​	138​	1.21​
David Pastrnak	502​	289​	315​	604​	115​	1.2​
Mikko Rantanen	486​	242​	337​	579​	110​	1.19​
Mitch Marner	499​	175​	403​	578​	110​	1.16​
Sidney Crosby	490​	210​	359​	569​	52​	1.16​

Steve Yzerman 1.55 ppg for that era was 19% higher than the 4-10 players, Mack 1.41 was 16%

Mack has 104 points in 81 playoff games during that stretch, has clearly one of the top playoff performer of that era and cup winner, only Mc-Drai have a better ppg, .yzerman only had the chance to play in 37 playoffs games (39 pts), the gap in team for most of those stretch making it hard to compare, but Mackinnon did, while Yzerman is only a maybe would, that was not team canada 1987 and 1991 probably for that reason. No way they leave Mackinnon home, well Keenan was picular enough that who knows.

They are close as it get imo, prime wise as of now, maybe MacKinnon peak will be longer he just arguably had his best season of his career, Yzerman was leaving his peak at this very moment of his career but aged wonderfully.

there is an unyielding desire amongst all of us - this board, my friends, the heads on tv - to never, ever, ever see anyone as even the same species as 4, 66, 99.

I get it, I was there, too. (not for 4)

However, most of 99s batshit numbers came on the most stacked offensive team in an entirely offensive era that also did not feature many Euros or much money in contracts compared to what was to come. The league just simply was not the same. He was not an old man, and he hadnt been hit by Suter, and LA was still a good, if normal good, team, during these numbers here.

If I remove the myths and legends and the ache in my 50yr old heart, while observing all the highly contested sports that are measured by time, weight or distance - I know that Wayne was likely not an actual God. Sorry. Mario was on the stacked team at this time, and was goofily skilled and blessed with size. He dominated at the highest level in this frame. He was at his peak, too.

I cannot, really, draw a ton of difference between Mario and current McDavid. Styles? Ya, they are different. But rating out of 100? really similar. top tier. mindblowing. Yet, Kucherov, with his hands and cerebral brilliance, has taken two Rosses from him, and been a stunner in the playoffs. Reminds me a lot of LA Wayne.

And that makes Mack really really similar to Stevie Y, pre Bowman.

 

[MadLuke]

He was not an old man, and he hadnt been hit by Suter, and LA was still a good, if normal good, team, during these numbers here.

88-94 would have all of the 92-93-94 games played post Suter hit, but also without even taking that dip into context, 1.9 ppg was 22.5% above peak Yzerman, that a 156 pts by 82 games pace versus 127, Yzerman a guy with the McDavid-Jagr-Esposito-Bossy-Crosby often in the conversation for the best offensive prime after Howe-Lemieux-Gretzky.

If Mack is very similar to Yzerman (I would tend to agree), that make post peak Gretzky score at an bit higher rate than 2018-2024 McDavid... (22% higher than Mack is a 1.72 ppg pace in that era), this was post his first 8 Art Ross Gretzky, to still be that far away from peak Yzerman-Oates-Hull-Messier-Lafontaine at that stage of his career his nuts. Crosby got to be less than 10 pts below the Art Ross once after turning 27 I think.

Prime MacKinnon is up there as one of the 2-3 best players in the game, and has been for a few seasons now. I don't recall Yzerman ever reaching such heights (even excluding Gretzky and Lemieux, Yzerman was still competing with Bourque, Messier, Roy, Hull, and at times Lafontaine during his prime).

Makar won the Smythe over him, Drai and Matthews won an Hart/Lindsay over him, some could say there is 4 or so players that have been in that mix of best non-McDavid player in the world talk, like Yzerman-Messier-Roy-Bourque were.

And would Bourque or Messier playing now, not be also in that talk ? Lafontaine had Mario Lemieux in the Q his draft year, the argument that Yzerman played in the baby boomer peak of Canadian talent (as a 1965, Lemieux-Roy were born the same day that year), a strong US talent batch and the euros appear for the second half of his prime.

 

[Dingo]

88-94 would have all of the 92-93-94 game player post Suter hit, but also 1.9 ppg was 22.5% above peak Yzerman.

If Mack is very similar to Yzerman ( I would tend to agree), that make post peak Gretzky score at an bit higher rate than 2018-2024 McDavid... (22% higher than Mack is a 1.72 ppg pace in that era), this was post his first 8 Art Ross Gretzky, to still be that far away from peak Yzerman-Oates-Hull-Messier-Lafontaine at that stage of his career his nuts. Crosby got to be less than 10 pts below the Art Ross once after turning 27 I think.


k, fair enough.

 

[NordiquesForeva]

88-94 would have all of the 92-93-94 game player post Suter hit, but also 1.9 ppg was 22.5% above peak Yzerman.

If Mack is very similar to Yzerman ( I would tend to agree), that make post peak Gretzky score at an bit higher rate than 2018-2024 McDavid... (22% higher than Mack is a 1.72 ppg pace in that era), this was post his first 8 Art Ross Gretzky, to still be that far away from peak Yzerman-Oates-Hull-Messier-Lafontaine at that stage of his career his nuts. Crosby got to be less than 10 pts below the Art Ross once after turning 27 I think.


Makar won the Smythe over him, Drai and Matthews won an Hart/Lindsay over him, some could say there is 4 or so player that have been in that mix of best non-McDavid player in the world talk, like Yzerman-Messier-Roy-Bourque were.

That said would Bourque or Messier playing now, not be also in that talk ? Lafontaine had Mario Lemieux in the Q his draft year, the argument that Yzerman played in the baby boomer peak of Canadian talent (as a 1965, Lemieux-Roy were born the same day that year), a strong US talent batch and the euros appear for the second half of his prime.

I don't disagree, but MacKinnon has been more consistently in the mix as a top-5 player in the game since the 2017-18 season than was Yzerman during his 7-year peak (1986-87 to 1992-93). MacKinnon's Hart finishes since the 2017-18 season (7 season) are much stronger, against a really strong talent pool, than are Yzerman's, also during a really strong era.

MacKinnon - 1, 2, 2, 3, 5, 6
Yzerman - 3, 4, 7, 7, 7

Yzerman likely picks up the Ross and Hart in 1988-89 sans Lemieux and Gretzky, but what else does he get there in terms of hardware? Maybe a 3rd place finish in 1990 and/or 1993? I keep coming back to the viewing MacKinnon as in the top-half of that 5-player upper echelon, Yzerman being in the bottom-half of his. There is an edge there, and I think it favours MacKinnon.

 

[MadLuke]

Hart finishes

To note Hart is a bit of a balancing act with team results (and teammates), 87-90-91 the Wings are not an above .500 team, which can make it hard to be in the Hart conversation, regardless of how good you are.

Say in 1990

Lafontaine: 54G-51A-105 pts -13
point above 2nd place on his team..: 37
point above third place on his team: 46

Yzerman...: 62G-65A-127 pts -6
point above 2nd place on his team..: 47
point above third place on his team: 70

Would Lafontaine got more Hart votes than Yzerman, if the Wings make the playoff and not the Islanders ?

Mack team have been a contender every year and there second (or best) player a defenceman which have their own Norris trophy, making it a perfect storm for the Hart in comparison.

I could have been too young, but from memory Yzerman status in the best non Mario-Wayne conversation was stronger than that Hart resume would indicate, 1988 he would have the team result to do it, but played only 64 games.

Now we can talk about how much a stars should turn a team above .500 but some of those Glen Hanlon in nets, Zombo-Norwood-Houda Wings team were rough to turn around.

 

[JackSlater]

Forsberg is the answer to the question: What if Lindros and Crosby had a son together?

I see Crosby, not really Lindros.

 

[NordiquesForeva]

To note Hart is a bit of a balancing act, 87-90-91 the Wings are not an .500 team, which can make it hard to be in the Hart conversation, regardless of how good you are.

Say in 1990 Would

Lafontaine: 54G-51A-105 pts -13
point above 2nd place on his team..: 37
point above third place on his team: 46

Yzerman...: 62G-65A-127 pts -6
point above 2nd place on his team..: 47
point above third place on his team: 70

Would Lafontaine got more Hart vote, if the Wings make the playoff and not the Islanders ?

Mack team have been a contender every year and there second (or best) player a defenceman which have their own Norris trophy, making it a perfect storm for the Hart in comparison.

I could have been too young, but from memory Yzerman status in the best non Mario-Wayne conversation was stronger than that Hart resume would indicate, 1988 he would have the team result to do it, but played only 64 games.

Now we can talk about how much a stars should turn a team above .500 but some of those Glen Hanlon in nets, Zombo-Norwood-Houda Wings team were rough to turn around.

I was watching hockey in the late 1980s (young, but watching hockey), and my recollection is that the thought of Yzerman being in the group of the 5 or 6 best players in the world certainly has merit. That reputation was really established in 198-89 with his 155 point season. My recollection is that for a couple of years (say, until 1989-1990) there was separation between Yzerman and contemporaries like Hawerchuk, Savard, Statsny. Yzerman was in a group with Bourque, Roy, and Messier, with Lafontaine coming on strong in 1990. Turn the page to 1990-91, and Yzerman had a down year. Behind guys like Cullen and Recchi in scoring. Hull is now firmly in the conversation, Oates as well, maybe even Roenick as a young up-and-comer. 1991-92 was better, 1992-93 was another monster season for Yzerman, but by that point the narrative had started to shift around him from elite scorer on a not-so-great team, to a player that couldn't get it done in the playoffs. After 1992-93, I don't think he was really ever in that conversation again and he turned his attention to being a leader/better defensive player on a serial Cup-contending team.

So, to sum up, a season, maybe two as the "best" non-Mario, non-Gretzky forward, a couple of down seasons, and another season or two where he was fairly close overall to his nearest (imo) contemporary - Lafontaine. Lower end top-5/6 player of that era. MacKinnon is behind McDavid, behind Makar some of the time (not this past season), behind Kucherov/Draisaitl/Matthews some of the time but not every year. Sterling playoff resume, much like Kucherov. Very consistent, and consistently healthy. Generally regarded as the 2nd/3rd/4th best player on the planet imho, which is a little better than Yzerman.

 

[tabness]

I was watching hockey in the late 1980s (young, but watching hockey), and my recollection is that the thought of Yzerman being in the group of the 5 or 6 best players in the world certainly has merit. That reputation was really established in 198-89 with his 155 point season. My recollection is that for a couple of years (say, until 1989-1990) there was separation between Yzerman and contemporaries like Hawerchuk, Savard, Statsny. Yzerman was in a group with Bourque, Roy, and Messier, with Lafontaine coming on strong in 1990. Turn the page to 1990-91, and Yzerman had a down year. Behind guys like Cullen and Recchi in scoring. Hull is now firmly in the conversation, Oates as well, maybe even Roenick as a young up-and-comer. 1991-92 was better, 1992-93 was another monster season for Yzerman, but by that point the narrative had started to shift around him from elite scorer on a not-so-great team, to a player that couldn't get it done in the playoffs. After 1992-93, I don't think he was really ever in that conversation again and he turned his attention to being a leader/better defensive player on a serial Cup-contending team.

So, to sum up, a season, maybe two as the "best" non-Mario, non-Gretzky forward, a couple of down seasons, and another season or two where he was fairly close overall to his nearest (imo) contemporary - Lafontaine. Lower end top-5/6 player of that era. MacKinnon is behind McDavid, behind Makar some of the time (not this past season), behind Kucherov/Draisaitl/Matthews some of the time but not every year. Sterling playoff resume, much like Kucherov. Very consistent, and consistently healthy. Generally regarded as the 2nd/3rd/4th best player on the planet imho, which is a little better than Yzerman.

I mean this view of how each player was viewed at the time seems either very charitable to MacKinnon/almost solely on the Hart voting record to the exclusion of all else. As you yourself noted, beyond McDavid, there is Kucherov, Draisaitl, MacKinnon's own teammate Makar, and of course, GUCCY Matthews. Not to mention some other defensemen you could add, or Vasi even in this period.

So sure, if you'd prefer Messier or LaFontaine or Hull or Bourque (I'll even add Roenick in the early nineties) over Yzerman, I get it. Different strokes and all, but I don't see how it's too different from MacKinnon with his peers either.

However, as I posted earlier, the broader record and general zeitgest of the time is fairly clear in the Gretzky/Lemieux/Yzerman thing. Solely going by Hart voting seems to be a quite limited historiography and hardly fully reflective of what was the vibe of the time.

Ignore 1987-1988 and 1988-1989, where it's very clear. Look at after 1989-1990. Yzerman may not have factored in Hart voting, but he was straight up called by The Hockey News Yearbook as the third best player in the NHL after Gretzky and Lemieux (Messier was put after them) and the Hockey Scouting Report after that year said they wouldn't argue strongly against Yzerman being the best player in the league (meanwhile a guy like Ray Bourque who was a very close runner up to Messier was called a top five player).

During the 1990-1991 season, Bobby Hull himself mentioned that his son doesn't need to take a backseat to "the Gretzky, Yzerman, and Lemieux's". He didn't mention Messier or Bourque or LaFontaine, even if sure, maybe they also deserved to be mentioned. After it, The Hockey News Yearbook still called Yzerman the third best center in the league, after Gretzky and Lemieux, this time they used center instead of player though, the great Brett Hull and all.

For comparison's across sports, well, Yzerman's company is again super flattering, this from a St. Louis paper itself:

Yzerman's star may have faded a bit in 1991-1992 in the media, he wasn't kind when he said he'd refuse to report to Quebec just like Lindros, but you can still look through like hockey cards and magazines and whatever at the time. When Coffey came to Detroit right before the all star game in 1992-1993, what else did he say, but getting to play with the top centers in the league Gretzky, Lemieux, and now Yzerman, who was "just like them"

 

[NordiquesForeva]

I mean this view of how each player was viewed at the time seems either very charitable to MacKinnon/almost solely on the Hart voting record to the exclusion of all else. As you yourself noted, beyond McDavid, there is Kucherov, Draisaitl, MacKinnon's own teammate Makar, and of course, GUCCY Matthews. Not to mention some other defensemen you could add, or Vasi even in this period.

So sure, if you'd prefer Messier or LaFontaine or Hull or Bourque (I'll even add Roenick in the early nineties) over Yzerman, I get it. Different strokes and all, but I don't see how it's too different from MacKinnon with his peers either.

However, as I posted earlier, the broader record and general zeitgest of the time is fairly clear in the Gretzky/Lemieux/Yzerman thing. Solely going by Hart voting seems to be a quite limited historiography and hardly fully reflective of what was the vibe of the time.

Ignore 1987-1988 and 1988-1989, where it's very clear. Look at after 1989-1990. Yzerman may not have factored in Hart voting, but he was straight up called by The Hockey News Yearbook as the third best player in the NHL after Gretzky and Lemieux (Messier was put after them) and the Hockey Scouting Report after that year said they wouldn't argue strongly against Yzerman being the best player in the league (meanwhile a guy like Ray Bourque who was a very close runner up to Messier was called a top five player).

During the 1990-1991 season, Bobby Hull himself mentioned that his son doesn't need to take a backseat to "the Gretzky, Yzerman, and Lemieux's". He didn't mention Messier or Bourque or LaFontaine, even if sure, maybe they also deserved to be mentioned. After it, The Hockey News Yearbook still called Yzerman the third best center in the league, after Gretzky and Lemieux, this time they used center instead of player though, the great Brett Hull and all.

For comparison's across sports, well, Yzerman's company is again super flattering, this from a St. Louis paper itself:

View attachment 893334

Yzerman's star may have faded a bit in 1991-1992 in the media, he wasn't kind when he said he'd refuse to report to Quebec just like Lindros, but you can still look through like hockey cards and magazines and whatever at the time. When Coffey came to Detroit right before the all star game in 1992-1993, what else did he say, but getting to play with the top centers in the league Gretzky, Lemieux, and now Yzerman, who was "just like them"

I think Yzerman has a strong case as the third best player in the NHL in 1988-89, and third or fourth best in 1989-90. Not sure he was quite at that level before then (he was probably tracking there in 1987-88 prior to his injury), or in the following two seasons. So in a Gretzky-less and Mario-less world, he's the best player on the planet in 1988-89 and top 2/3 depending on how you feel about Messier in that Gretzky-less world in 1989-90. He pulls his game back up to top-5 status in 1992-93.

Keenan cutting Yzerman from the 1991 Canada Cup team got some people wondering what the hell was going on at the time too, though I think that whole situation said more about Keenan than it did about Yzerman.

I just think there is more substance there with MacKinnon...more season-to-season consistency over his prime. This is not diminish Yzerman, who is my second favourite player all-time and a player who I respected greatly as a player and as an individual. I just think MacKinnon has been a little better over his prime years.

 

[tabness]

I think Yzerman has a strong case as the third best player in the NHL in 1988-89, and third or fourth best in 1989-90. Not sure he was quite at that level before then (he was probably tracking there in 1987-88 prior to his injury), or in the following two seasons. So in a Gretzky-less and Mario-less world, he's the best player on the planet in 1988-89 and top 2/3 depending on how you feel about Messier in that Gretzky-less world in 1989-90. He pulls his game back up to top-5 status in 1992-93.

Keenan cutting Yzerman from the 1991 Canada Cup team got some people wondering what the hell was going on at the time too, though I think that whole situation said more about Keenan than it did about Yzerman.

I just think there is more substance there with MacKinnon...more season-to-season consistency over his prime. This is not diminish Yzerman, who is my second favourite player all-time and a player who I respected greatly as a player and as an individual. I just think MacKinnon has been a little better over his prime years.

Everyone can have their own views on the who's better, I personally know I'm not going to give new NHL players a fair shake, too much of of a bad taste with how hockey is today lol, a Forsberg vs Yzerman (or Fedorov) comparison is much more interesting to me personally to take another Avs superstar.

I'm mostly engaging on the idea that MacKinnon has a stature as the clear second or third best in the past few years that is firmer than Yzerman's stature with/behind Gretzky/Lemieux in the late eighties/early nineties. As I pointed out in various examples, with Yzerman, there's a lot of smoke around his stature, whether there's fire behind it is up to everyone to decide themselves, same as with MacKinnon (Gretzky for example seemed to me to have an inflated stature at this time, it took Lemieux winning the cup to get many onboard that he was better, the only contemporaneous source that firmly and consistently ranked Lemieux above Gretzky pre cup was the Hockey Digest rankings)

 

[MadLuke]

.more season-to-season consistency over his prime.

Is the impression amplified by missed games in 1990 and 94:

1987-88 NHL 1.59 (4th)

1988-89 NHL 1.94 (3rd)

1989-90 NHL 1.61 (4th)

1990-91 NHL 1.35 (7th)

1991-92 NHL 1.30 (9th)

1992-93 NHL 1.63 (5th)

1993-94 NHL 1.41 (6th)

versus:

2017-18 NHL 1.31 (2nd)

2018-19 NHL 1.21 (9th)

2019-20 NHL 1.35 (5th)

2020-21 NHL 1.35 (4th)

2021-22 NHL 1.35 (7th)

2022-23 NHL 1.56 (3rd)

2023-24 NHL 1.71 (3rd)

They both had that incredible consistent prime, Mack std:dev on his ppg is a bit lower (3 year a row with the exact same 1.35 is a bit wild), but a bit higher for is ranking, average ranking 5.4 for Yzerman, 4.7 for Mack.

Say Yzerman finish the 1988 year with 78 games (iinstead of 64) with 61 goals, 63 assists, 124 pts, 3 60+goals/125pts+ season in a row would have made him look a bit Lafleureste there.

Well if it is close the player with the consistent game played get the easy win, here.

 

[Video Nasty]

Too early for me to tell.

Yzerman hit the ground running quicker than MacKinnon with four very good seasons in a row before the traditional improvement for a player of that caliber at age 22. He also dealt with his own slew of injuries that affected his play (multiple knee surgeries among other ones). He was basically great from the beginning of his career all the way until that reinjury in 2002.

MacKinnon had a less traditional opening four seasons before his continuing rocket over the last seven years. He’s been arguably a top 5 forward this entire time. A Hart win, three additional finalist nominations, and an additional top 5 nod over the course of 7 seasons, while being 3rd in both raw points and PPG is a hell of a resume.

Can he be better than Yzerman was from age 29-36? It’s possible, but I’ll have to see it unfold before giving him the overall nod.