Is McDavid Top 10 For You All Time Already? If Not How Much More Does He Have to do?

[Sempiternal]

He's top 3 domination, but haters will point out no Stanley Cups.

 

[666]

Gretz/Orr/Howe/Lemieux
Hasek/Bourque/Lidstrom/Crosby/Jagr
Brodeur/Roy/Richard/Beliveau/OV

I have him on that 3rd tier between 10-15.

Orr
Gretzky, Mario, McDavid
Ovechkin, Esposito, Howe, Hull
Jagr, Lafleur, Crosby, Draisaitl, Matthews

Just forwards other than Orr.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Disagree about your first three examples. Amazing players, but not as consistently dominant from season to season. That said, I realize comparing dominance between forwards, defensemen and goalies to be tricky. But that's what makes these debates fun.

Obviously no one is placing McDavid next to Mario, Orr, and Wayne as of today. My point was that a few more years plus a Cup could turn it into a legitimate debate. He has the talent. He just needs more road to showcase it.

In less than a decade span Hasek won 6 Vezinas, 2 Harts, 2 Pearson, and 2 Jennings trophies. Against the stiffest goalie competition of all time.

In a decade span, Lidstrom won 7 Norris trophies and a Conn Smythe.

I can maybe see how he has come close to Lidstrom dominance, but can’t see how he has surpassed Hasek. At all.

 

[Notsince67]

I simply can’t, he’s the most incredible player I’ve ever seen. I’m just pushing back on the training and nutrition argument. If he blows past 130 points in a season it’s more impressive than what Jagr or Crosby or Kucherov or whoever did at their single season peak.

If for some reason he ends this season with 120-130 points though, it’s not any more impressive than what Jagr or Crosby did 20 years ago, the skill level has not gone up that significantly since then.

Personally I feel he has to blow past Crosby/Jagr level accomplishments in order to be put above them. Especially Crosby. If he never fails to do so, then he will be ranked in that 6-10 range and rightfully so.

Like I said, I can’t name 5 better than him. But all these players have a similar skill level(I think McDavid is slightly more talented but not by much), however these players stepped up in big moments and had major accomplishments that would prevent McDavid from being more impressive.

Hasek
Crosby
Jagr
Bourque
Lidstrom

If someone were to put him outside the top 10 because of those names, it’s extremely justified IMO.

uh huh. You and the insane.
Jagr had an inferior points record his first 8 nhl seasons despite a chunk playing with Lemieux.
Nobody would trade the top nhl player for a goalie in any era.
Lidstom was good but lets not compare a 53 overall pick in a so so draft and a stacked team with the #1 of one of the best drafts in history.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Orr
Gretzky, Mario, McDavid
Ovechkin, Esposito, Howe, Hull
Jagr, Lafleur, Crosby, Draisaitl, Matthews

Just forwards other than Orr.

McDavid on an entire tier above Howe? Come on.

 

[666]

McDavid on an entire tier above Howe? Come on.

Yep.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

uh huh. You and the insane.
Jagr had an inferior points record his first 8 nhl seasons despite a chunk playing with Lemieux.
Nobody would trade the top nhl player for a goalie in any era.
Lidstom was good but lets not compare a 53 overall pick in a so so draft and a stacked team with the #1 of one of the best drafts in history.

You mean the first 5 seasons? Because seasons 6-10 he had point totals of
149
95 in 63 games
102
127
96 in 63 games
121

He was also well above PPG in those first few seasons. Is it more impressive that McDavid got his high point totals in earlier years compared to Jagr? Personally it doesn’t matter to me when you dominated the league, just that you did it.

Lidstrom impacts the game and winning far more than McDavid has shown to do. I’ll bet you many GMs would start a team with him above McDavid if their only goal was to win. Definitely not controversial.

 

[authentic]

McDavid on an entire tier above Howe? Come on.

Also 2 tiers above Crosby and Jagr? Lol

You mean the first 5 seasons? Because seasons 6-10 he had point totals of
149
95 in 63 games
102
127
96 in 63 games
121

He was also well above PPG in those first few seasons. Is it more impressive that McDavid got his high point totals in earlier years compared to Jagr? Personally it doesn’t matter to me when you dominated the league, just that you did it.

I think this only really matters if McDavid continues to dominate into his 30s or not. If he does, McDavid > Jagr. If he doesn't then it's not as clearcut.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Also 2 tiers above Crosby and Jagr? Lol



I think this only really matters if McDavid continues to dominate into his 30s or not. If he does, McDavid > Jagr. If he doesn't then it's not as clearcut.

Agreed. I’m curious to see if McDavid is winning awards past 30 when his speed takes a hit. If so, I’ll have no issue putting him above Jagr.

 

[Peiskos]

I think there is a high chance McDavid finishes 2nd all time in points to only Gretzky. Jagr will probably hang on to that 2nd spot for another decade before he claims the spot.

 

[NVious]

Indisputable at this point.

 

[authentic]

Agreed. I’m curious to see if McDavid is winning awards past 30 when his speed takes a hit. If so, I’ll have no issue putting him above Jagr.

It shouldn't be that hard though really, Jagr only won one award past the age of 28.

 

[macbowes]

He's the GOAT.

 

[Faterson]

He's the GOAT.

Yup, his name's Gretzky.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Needs cups n smythes so no

 

[McFlash97]

Agreed. I’m curious to see if McDavid is winning awards past 30 when his speed takes a hit. If so, I’ll have no issue putting him above Jagr.

McDavid has already done enough statistically and awards wise to put himself beyond jagr.

Cup not included of course. Doesn't matter what McDavid does beyond 30. By the time he's 30 were talking perhaps 7 + Art Ross trophies and possibly 4 plus hart trophies.

 

[mobilus]

I already have McDavid as #5 all-time. He's not even at half a career yet but you can see where this is going. Gretzky's historical importance was obvious by his third season, despite a few blowhard gatekeepers like Dick Beddoes who were saying Gretzky's dominance meant nothing unless he won a Cup. Then when he won a Cup the story became, "…it's just one, he has to prove he can repeat the accomplishment." After he won a few Cups they went back to the trope they used when Gretzky first came into the league… "He wouldn't have lasted one season against the physical play of the old days."

If I had a team and could draft any historical NHLer as an 18 year old, I'd have McDavid fourth, ahead of Howe.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Needs cups to surpass even the likes of Beliveau, Rocket & Henri Richard, Esposito, and Mikita.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Yeah he’s at around number 5 for me. What he’s done already at his age has not been accomplished by many players. Now he just needs the long career to move further up the list.

Needs cups to surpass even the likes of Beliveau, Rocket & Henri Richard, Esposito, and Mikita.

Most of those guys won Cups in a six team lead. That’s a poor analogy.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Yeah he’s at around number 5 for me. What he’s done already at his age has not been accomplished by many players. Now he just needs the long career to move further up the list.


Most of those guys won Cups in a six team lead. That’s a poor analogy.

They are all time greats.

It's unfair to dismiss them

 

[WetcoastOrca]

They are all time greats.

It's unfair to dismiss them

I didn’t dismiss them. I dismissed the Cup argument.
There’s simply no comparison as to the difficulty in winning a Cup in a six team league as opposed to a 32 team league.

 

[Hockeyholic]

	Crosby	McDavid
Hart	2	2
Lindsay	3	3
Ross	2	4
Smythe	2	0
Postseason All Star C (1st)	4	4
Postseason All Star C (2nd)	4	1
Richard	2	0
Total	19	14

I expect McDavid will catch him soon, but it won't be this year.

It seems inevitable that McDavid passes Crosby in Harts and Lindsays this season, with a good chance to widen the gap by mid-decade. That's a huge deal. There's a massive difference between 2 Harts (19 players have done this) and 4 Harts (3 players have done this). At that point, the only thing keeping him from a Lemieux or Orr level legacy would be Stanley Cup rings -- and that might be the hardest hill to climb.

Bumping.

McDavid will win the Hart, Lindsay, and be a postseason all star (1) this year. Already has the Rocket & Ross.

Both will have 19 awards.

If he wins at least one CS, plus has another CS worthy run (Both in wins), I believe the Crosby vs McDavid debate is a toss up. Crosby still has the olympic gold medals & longevity. Though McDavid was not given an opportunity to attend yet.

For C's, I believe McDavid will surpass guys like Messier, Sakic, Yzerman, Lindros, Esposito, Dionne, & possibly Trottier. But he hasn't yet. Longevity counts as well.

Note: I don't think I am going out on a limb by suggesting he wins the Hart, Lindsay, and is a #1 PO all star this season.

 

[DitchMarner]

For C's, I believe McDavid will surpass guys like Messier, Sakic, Yzerman, Lindros, Esposito, Dionne, & possibly Trottier. But he hasn't yet. Longevity counts as well.

Note: I don't think I am going out on a limb by suggesting he wins the Hart, Lindsay, and is a #1 PO all star this season.

How has he he not surpassed Lindros? He's much, much more accomplished.

 

[Hockeyholic]

How has he he not surpassed Lindros? He's much, much more accomplished.

Lindros played in Finals...albeit swept.

Re-thinking it, I put him above Lindros.

Work to pass others. Longevity factor.

 

[Montreal Shadow]

He’s a top 3-5 talent. Not a top 10 player though. It takes a whole career to get there but he will.