Is mcdavid too good not to win a cup?

He had a great first game against Sweden, but was average otherwise… so I guess standout for the entire tournament is a no. The play drivers were MacKinnon and McDavid. When Canada had the puck, it was clear who they wanted to drive the play; who they wanted to touch the puck as much as possible. Crosby doesn’t have any international MVPs of neither Olympics 2010, nor Olympics 2014, so we can’t fault McDavid for not winning over MacKinnon.

He had the best individual performance on Team Canada against Sweden and some key plays against Finland but to your point, if you completley ignore those games, he was average in the other two games.

Setting aside the rediculousness of that, he did great given his age and noone should have expected him to outperform McDavid and MacKinnon.
 
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Crosby doesn’t have any international MVPs of neither Olympics 2010, nor Olympics 2014, so we can’t fault McDavid for not winning over MacKinnon.

MVP of the World Cup and two Conn Smythes. He batting .500 on the MVP front among the championships he was expected to be the best player. And let's not forget his 2009 Cup run where he scored the most goals and had the 2nd highest point total over a 20 year span; he just happened to have Malkin put up the best playoff run of the past 30 years.

Full credit to McDavid for scoring the OT winner just like Crosby did; but as you have noted that apparently is meaningless because he did not win the MVP.
 
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McDavid created a few chances before the third period, such as the empty net Hyman missed. The whole team apart from McDrai seem to only start playing to their full potential once they are behind for some reason. McDavid can’t do much on his line when his linemates are whiffing chances, aren’t winning board battles, can’t make basic passes etc. it’s a five v five game.

The same old "linemates can't finish", "linemates suck" etc... has been going on for 9 years. This wasn't an an issue for Crosby who produced with any quality of linemate. He argubly had the worse set of linemates over his career of any of his all-time great peers.

Crosby: Linemates can't finish? He goes and wins the Rocket Richard twice and pots 15 in the 2009 playoffs.

Crosby: Can't win board battles? He wins them himself as he is the more versatile overall talent.
 
Assuming you recognize that forwards bring more than just offense, notably #1Cs like Crosby vs. part-time #1Cs like McDavid, is McDavid as good an all around player as Crosby?
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Adorable narrative. Let me show you a forward who actually brings more than just offense:
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But that ain't Crosby.
 
View attachment 1026252
View attachment 1026253

Adorable narrative. Let me show you a forward who actually brings more than just offense:
View attachment 1026254

But that ain't Crosby.
That’s what I don’t understand… I’ve looked at all stats imaginable, and they all point to Crosby(in his prime) being average defensively. I suppose that’s impressive given how some star forwards are liabilities on that end, but I can’t help but feel like that narrative was created to extend the grace period when Crosby stopped being an Art Ross Threat ~2015. It’s very hard to quantify his defense.
 
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The same old "linemates can't finish", "linemates suck" etc... has been going on for 9 years. This wasn't an an issue for Crosby who produced with any quality of linemate. He argubly had the worse set of linemates over his career of any of his all-time great peers.

Crosby: Linemates can't finish? He goes and wins the Rocket Richard twice and pots 15 in the 2009 playoffs.

Crosby: Can't win board battles? He wins them himself as he is the more versatile overall talent.
He hasn’t produced with any linemates:
Playoffs:
14’: 9 pts in 13 games
15’: 4 pts in 5 games
16’: 19 in 24 games

Clearly he needs linemates who have a great shot, smart IQ, great positioning, who can drive the puck into the zone, and who can win the puck from the boards as well.

And let's not forget his 2009 Cup run where he scored the most goals and had the 2nd highest point total over a 20 year span
if Malkin doesn’t have his elite 2009 SCF performance, the Pens lose. How come Crosby gets a pass on this?. Crosby wasn’t playing with second tier line mates to create three scoring lines, he wasn’t making clutch plays at the right moments, and he wasn’t the defensive player he’s claimed to be during his middle to late 20s. Before you mention the defense he faced, McDavid faced Vezina winner Bobrovsky and future Selke winner Barkov. He did a great job to lead his team to the finals, but McDavid with that SCF finals performance would lose and gets scrutinized left and right. It’s a miracle that the Pens lucked out on a generational Malkin preformance while their captain had stage fright on the biggest stage.
 
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The same old "linemates can't finish", "linemates suck" etc... has been going on for 9 years. This wasn't an an issue for Crosby who produced with any quality of linemate. He argubly had the worse set of linemates over his career of any of his all-time great peers.

Crosby: Linemates can't finish? He goes and wins the Rocket Richard twice and pots 15 in the 2009 playoffs.

Crosby: Can't win board battles? He wins them himself as he is the more versatile overall talent.
Actually it has been an issue for Crosby, because McDavid vastly out produces Crosby in the BOTH the post season and the playoffs.
 
That’s what I don’t understand… I’ve looked at all stats imaginable, and they all point to Crosby(in his prime) being average defensively. I suppose that’s impressive given how some star forwards are liabilities on that end, but I can’t help but feel like that narrative was created to extend the grace period when Crosby stopped being an Art Ross Threat ~2015. It’s very hard to quantify his defense.
The “Crosby has been elite defensively” narrative only became alive when McDavid entered the league and showed what a true top 5 talent in history looks like
 
Team game. He could go all of his career without winning one and it wouldn't be solely on him.

That said, I'm sure he'll eventually win one with the Oilers or a different team. He'll probably always make it a priority.
 
Team game. He could go all of his career without winning one and it wouldn't be solely on him.

That said, I'm sure he'll eventually win one with the Oilers or a different team. He'll probably always make it a priority.
Pretty much this.

Hasek in his peak was essentially unbeatable and couldn’t do it

Mario only won two

Gretzky never won away from the Oilers

Giguère had arguably the single most dominant stretch of hockey I’ve ever seen, and still couldn’t do it

Without a team effort, no player can do it alone
 
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Pretty much this.

Hasek in his peak was essentially unbeatable and couldn’t do it

Mario only won two

Gretzky never won away from the Oilers

Giguère had arguably the single most dominant stretch of hockey I’ve ever seen, and still couldn’t do it

Without a team effort, no player can do it alone
Giguère! Insane run. The one cinderella run that deserved to win.
 
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None are denying any of this, all of this is accurate, but there’s two main issues with this.

1. Giving full credit to Crosby for the success of the HBK line. We can give Crosby context points, yet everyone on the second and third line had to step up, even if they’re playing weaker competition due to spreading out the talent. If it’s such a viable strategy, why didn’t the Penguins employ it in the regular season? You might win the President trophy, get home Ice and easier matchups. It’s because relying on a lower talent third line scoring while your first line is a negative is usually not a winning strategy. What you’re saying is Crosby had a better playoffs than the stats suggest because Phil Kessel drove his line well… not Crosby’s on ice ability?.

2. Implying that this could be replicated for the Oilers. That third line over preformed expectations so massively that it shouldn’t be used as a standard. McDavid was plus 15 last playoffs, are you willing to bet that the Oilers would be better had he been separated from Drai, given fourth line scrubs and was a -2 instead?. There is no guarantee that Hyman and say, Kane preform well enough on the third line to cover up the deficit.

By the way, McDavid was on ice for 2ga the entire Stanley cup finals… he’s deployed as an offensive weapon that concedes 2 goals against in 150 ish minutes of ice time?. Sounds like a bargain.
The Penguins did do it in the regular season. What are you even talking about?
 
The “Crosby has been elite defensively” narrative only became alive when McDavid entered the league and showed what a true top 5 talent in history looks like
Crosby was extremely good defensively in 18 and 19 especially, so no you’re just making shit up.
 
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That’s the thing - Pens' energy is being wasted here. The vast majority already know McDavid is better. The last poll was an 80-20 split in favor of McDavid, and this will only go up; no one seriously thinks Crosby is better than McDavid outside of Pens fans. They should get ahead and start drafting papers for arguments against Mackinnon and Kucherov; those guys have the peak but lack longevity to be compared with Crosby for now.

Kucherov has a better peak season, more Art Rosses, and might have the same amount of Harts, two Stanley Cups, and more 30-point playoff runs. He doesn’t seem to be slowing down. He just needs the longevity.
Yet polls on this site are also overwhelming in favor of Crosby regarding who would you want to draft as an 18 year old.
 
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no single player is too good to win a cup.. never has been in recent times.
This includes Wayne and Mario.

Hockey is a team sport where 20 players play per side. Only position where a player could be too good to not win a cup would be a goalie. Even they would require serious help from guys up front
Gretzky needed a team full of HOFers in their prime to win a Cup, same with Lemieux.
 
Most of these legends that won Cups also played in a non salary cap league. Gretzky played on arguably the greatest team in NHL history when he won all his Cups. This same team beat him in the playoffs 3 times in a row after he was traded and won a Cup without him. 5 teammates he won Cups with also went to the Rangers and won another Cup without him in 1994. That is how good the support Gretzky had to win his Cups, multiple Hall of Famers. Even Lemieux had multiple Hall of Famers and strong rosters during his Cup wins. The 1992-93 Penguins were stacked to the rafters with talent and couldn't win the Cup.
 
Post the receipts.

There haven’t been any stats that backup this claim whatsoever.
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Crosby in 2021 season.

Crosby 2019 season.

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He's stopped expending energy on that side of the puck like he used to, but he was a very reliable player defensively from 2018-2023. The outlier there is 2020 where he played weeks with an abdominal injury and basically wasn't skating at all.
 
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Crosby in 2021 season.

Crosby 2019 season.

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He's stopped expending energy on that side of the puck like he used to, but he was a very reliable player defensively from 2018-2023. The outlier there is 2020 where he played weeks with an abdominal injury and basically wasn't skating at all.
IMG_3719.webp

Very well, I could post JFresh hockey cards too. Crosby's defense was at EV 50% from 2021, so the 2018-2023 timeline doesn't work.
 
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