Speculation: Is Mario the problem?

[#66]

i dont necessarily think mario is part of the problem, just that its plausible. its basically just circumstantial evidence at this point-- mario as a player loved the country club atmosphere to a fault, and this current club seems too country-clubby. correlation doesn't equal casuality.

but hes so far removed from the on-ice team, its pretty hard to say what effect he has on the team itself. i know for a fact that byslma is a problem, i'm now starting to think that shero is a problem, but ownership... thats several degree of separation right there.

one thing that is kind of damning-- all the media reports this past offseason said that shero had that big meeting with ownership right before the press conference announcing extensions for the coaching staff. this meeting was basically supposed to determine the fate of bylsma and co. reports said shero went into the meeting prepared to fight tooth and nail to defend bylsma. but shero was surprised that ownership was already completely on board with extensions. that kind of sucks.

did mario even earn that much money in his playing career? he seems like a dude with expensive tastes, i'm not familiar with any other investments or sources of income that he has. hes not like burkle who can afford to throw away millions of dollars. the cup is great, but i have to imagine still looks at this operation as a money-making opportunity for him. i can see why he would want to play it safe and stick with the popular and relatively "successful" byslma. keep his iconic stars happy, keep winning a fair amount of games, have some respectable playoff runs, and keep putting people in the seats.

again, correlation does not equal causation. frankly it seems more like mario has pushed shero to be aggressive (which is concerning about shero but thats another thread), which is a good thing. but ownership's complete support of bylsma this offseason is concerning.

at this stage this is just interesting speculation. but if this team continues to stick with bylsma/shero and their "we only want players that want to be here" shtick, then maybe ownership is culpable.

Its clearly Mario. This win sloppy, lose badly, la dee dah attitude has been around the Pens for 30 years. To a degree Sid is at fault too. Its not an atmosphere suited for him and I don't think he likes it. He could change all this with one word but might be a little to respectful of Mario.

The Pens not only came very close to getting Bob Johnson fired but asked Scotty Bowman not to come to practices. Then EJ comes in to babysit time after time. Does that make any sense?

Now we have teams that go on cup runs with Roberts, BGL, Malone, Cooke and Roo only to have the same GM change to build a pack of pusscakes. A coach that was all about bopping on the end boards has Chris Kunitz fading away from checks... KUNITZ.

This team turned in its black hat for a pair of pink panties and it friggin sickens me.

 

[canadianguy77]

You made me laugh. Thanks for that.

 

[#66]

People who think Mario Lemieux's commitment is money and not winning clearly hasn't followed Mario Lemieux the last 30 years.

It goes beyond that. Everyone knows Mario wants to win and has the best intentions for the Pens. Its more about how he wants to win. The offense at all costs, loosy goosy attitude, coddling of stars, good role players are a dime a dozen and paper thin structure scream Lemieux.

What worked for him 20 years ago doesn't work anymore... and I don't think it makes Sid or Malkin better players.

You made me laugh. Thanks for that.

Tips hat.

 

[canadianguy77]

This was the guy who made me laugh.

I think the Crosby situation is the problem.

A team like Pittsburgh should be monumentally confident and arrogant and what not. You should be afraid to play them, for the risk of being humiliated. Etc. Etc. Etc.

But you know, when you play Pittsburgh, when you see Pittsburgh play, it feels like, after hit is made, --the thought of "that could have been his career" is ubiquitous--.

And especially in the PO's when Pittsburgh play Boston or Philly.

The marginals are not big in this league with the cap. You need everything to be in place. And that has just not been the case for Pittsburg mentally.

I don't know what to do. I would really question the out-of-controll -- worst in the league -- cheap-shotting style Pittsburgh has been playing the last years with Cooke leading the way. The fact that nobody respects them of course makes pay-back more likely. A shake-up in terms of personell possibly could help. But its not easy.

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Its clearly Mario. This win sloppy, lose badly, la dee dah attitude has been around the Pens for 30 years. To a degree Sid is at fault too. Its not an atmosphere suited for him and I don't think he likes it. He could change all this with one word but might be a little to respectful of Mario.

The Pens not only came very close to getting Bob Johnson fired but asked Scotty Bowman not to come to practices. Then EJ comes in to babysit time after time. Does that make any sense?

Now we have teams that go on cup runs with Roberts, BGL, Malone, Cooke and Roo only to have the same GM change to build a pack of pusscakes. A coach that was all about bopping on the end boards has Chris Kunitz fading away from checks... KUNITZ.

This team turned in its black hat for a pair of pink panties and it friggin sickens me.

I don't think unhappy players generally sign 12 year contract extensions with NMCs.

 

[ColePens]

Will they?

That is the question TTEoT was asking, which I parroted with this thread. If so why not yet? My God, you of all people have been pointing out the problems for a few years now. Surely they see the same things.

What are they waiting for?

I think they empower the GM. They believe he can do a good job. I would be SHOCKED if the conversation didn't go something like this in the offseason:

Shero: "I want to give Bylsma an extension. There is no other coach out there right now since Tippett re-sigend."

Ownership: "Fine, but now it's your ass if we go out embarrasingly again."

Shero: "Okay"



He gets to do his job his way. My belief is this is a 2 for 1 deal. I don't think ownership goes in there any makes changes and that's a good thing. They leave it to hte people it should be with and then just approve the money aspect of it.

 

[Captain Hook]

I can see Shero or Bylsma being the problem. I don't necessarily agree with that but I can see the arguments for each being a problem.

I don't see Mario as a problem. He doesn't strike me as a meddling owner. He strikes me as the type that lets his coach and GM do their job and I think that's a good thing.

We also need to remember the obvious and that's the fact that we wouldn't even have a team to be happy or disappointed with if it weren't for Mario. The Pens would probably be in KC right now.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Watching Mario during the playoffs last year made me realize that there is still no one in that city or team (when it comes to the Penguins) that wants to win more than Mario. The guy you see it in his face half the time he wants to get back on the ice and take care of things

He probably needs to come out and say Shero's job isn't on the line or something like that, a nice kiss of death!!

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I think they empower the GM. They believe he can do a good job. I would be SHOCKED if the conversation didn't go something like this in the offseason:

Shero: "I want to give Bylsma an extension. There is no other coach out there right now since Tippett re-sigend."

Ownership: "Fine, but now it's your ass if we go out embarrasingly again."

Shero: "Okay"



He gets to do his job his way. My belief is this is a 2 for 1 deal. I don't think ownership goes in there any makes changes and that's a good thing. They leave it to hte people it should be with and then just approve the money aspect of it.

This is true. We do not get to see the sausage being made, so all we can do is speculate. I certainly hope that you are right and that the rope has gotten a lot shorter. We all are obviously frustrated with how this team has looked for a period which has extended for years now, at least three years. If the rope is not short by now it will never be.

 

[Til the End of Time]

I think they empower the GM. They believe he can do a good job. I would be SHOCKED if the conversation didn't go something like this in the offseason:

Shero: "I want to give Bylsma an extension. There is no other coach out there right now since Tippett re-sigend."

Ownership: "Fine, but now it's your ass if we go out embarrasingly again."

Shero: "Okay"



He gets to do his job his way. My belief is this is a 2 for 1 deal. I don't think ownership goes in there any makes changes and that's a good thing. They leave it to hte people it should be with and then just approve the money aspect of it.

i'm not going to search too hard for the link, but the reports at the time indicated that mario and ownership were much more in byslma's corner than your indicating. iirc, the reports made it sound like even if shero wanted hcdb gone, ownership was set on retaining him.

 

[ColePens]

Well... i have no proof either way. The only thing I can see if the product out there. MTL, Boston, Philly were all extremely embarrassing. I give the Tampa series a pass even though we DID have a 3-1 lead.

I am out of ideas/thoughts. I think my thoughts have been on display to the point where it might sound like a broken record. If DB still thinks it's okay to continue on what we are doing, then hey... they'll lose again in the postseason. I'm not even second-guessing that.

 

[#66]

I don't think unhappy players generally sign 12 year contract extensions with NMCs.

I mean more in that he's going to push for that attitude. Anyone would sign a deal like that to be treated like a king while playing 40 to 60 games a year.

You take a firey kid like Crosby, to hear him talk about puck luck and bounces after last game made my stomach turn. Anyone that has followed Sid knows that's not him but more of who's he become.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

If anything, I think this thread shows that there is not just some witch hunt for DB. There are real problems with this team and people are interested in finding the root of the problems, even if it means questioning Mario's role.

That said, I don't think Mario and Burkle are a big part of the problem but maybe they aren't being part of the solution either. I'm kind of ok with that considering what they've done in this town.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

If Mario Lemieux has any imprint on the makeup of this team, you'd think he'd remember what it was like for himself back when he started with the Pens, when he complained about needing better support around him because the best options were Rob Brown and Randy Cunneyworth.

In other words, Mario, more than *anyone* should understand how frustrating Sid and Geno must be playing with the wingers they have, and how important it is to surround your star center(s) with better talent. Mario would have never won his Cups without upgrading Rob Brown and Randy Cunneyworth with Kevin Stevens and Rick Tocchet, for example.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Does Mario Lemieux want this team to play like Nashville? I don't think he does. Ray Shero does. Does Mario Lemieux want Pascal Dupuis to be Crosby's right-winger? I doubt it very much. Dan Bylsma does. Mario was adamant that Shero land Marian Hossa. I don't think Mario was insisting that we also get Dupuis in that deal!

If Mario is at fault for one thing, it's how we have turned buttercup soff as a franchise. Both he and Shero are crusaders in the fight against, well, fighting. And our team on the ice looks it. We're clearly a bottom-five team in the league now in terms of toughness.

He will continue to become a bigger problem if he (or somebody else in upper management) hangs onto Shero and Bylsma.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

No... Mario is not the problem. Though I completely understand and appreciate the thought process of this thread.

Mario's job is to make money or, more to the point, be the recognizable and revered figure head of the ownership group. Though I'm sure he certainly has input on operations. He is also, I think, trying to not meddle.

Someone said it earlier but in the Penguins case, at least... the buck stops with Ray Shero.

 

[Your Boy Troy]

Does Mario Lemieux want this team to play like Nashville? I don't think he does. Ray Shero does. Does Mario Lemieux want Pascal Dupuis to be Crosby's right-winger? I doubt it very much. Dan Bylsma does. Mario was adamant that Shero land Marian Hossa. I don't think Mario was insisting that we also get Dupuis in that deal!

If Mario is at fault for one thing, it's how we have turned buttercup soff as a franchise. Both he and Shero are crusaders in the fight against, well, fighting. And our team on the ice looks it. We're clearly a bottom-five team in the league now in terms of toughness.

He will continue to become a bigger problem if he (or somebody else in upper management) hangs onto Shero and Bylsma.

Exactly. Ever since Mario complained about the fight filled Islanders' game, the team got softer as the seasons progressed. I personally think that Ray Shero's opinion on fighting is largely due to Mario Lemieux's comments.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Exactly. Ever since Mario complained about the fight filled Islanders' game, the team got softer as the seasons progressed. I personally think that Ray Shero's opinion on fighting is largely due to Mario Lemieux's comments.

Well, you would think so, but listening to him speak a lot lately as his dad got induced in the HHOF, he clearly sounds like a guy who wants to disassociate himself completely from his father's legacy (aka "Broad Street Bullies").

So I'm not sure about that. I think Ray Shero is his own man, and he wants fighting out of the game.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Perhaps.

I'm inclined to think that, despite some of our qualms, he's a very smart man and simply sees the writing on the wall when it comes to goons.

That doesn't mean that he couldn't stand to bring in a nasty third/fourth liner, or three.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Perhaps.

I'm inclined to think that, despite some of our qualms, he's a very smart man and simply sees the writing on the wall when it comes to goons.

That doesn't mean that he couldn't stand to bring in a nasty third/fourth liner, or three.

We also don't need one trick ponies here. Anyone they'd bring in has to be able to aggitate and still be skilled enough to complete regular tasks.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Right.

I can understand the need for dedicated enforcers down on the farm, though. It can still get a little crazy down there.