Is Kucherov on Jagr's level?

Is Kucherov on Jagr's level

  • Yes

    Votes: 81 37.0%
  • No

    Votes: 138 63.0%

  • Total voters
    219
Another thing not to forget. Jagr benefitted from almost 2 more power play opportunities per game during his peak.

Could you imagine what current Kucherov would accomplish with ~1,5-2 more opportunities per game? As an example, he’s been scoring a point at a 20% rate per power play opportunity for the last 2 seasons. 130 more opportunities could give him approximately 26 more points per season based on those averages. He would obviously lose time at ES that way so it wouldn’t necessarily give him that much more points, but still an interesting fact to point out. That can be used to partially compensate the difference in overall scoring between eras.
Power play percentage has increased since then, it's disingenuous to omit that.

But to answer the question Jagr was a much more dominant ES player while not being a complete cherrypicker
 
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Kucherov's playoff stats are way more impressive because somewhere between a half and a third of them are in the later rounds where competition is stiffer and fatigue is a huge factor. MacKinnon's stats by and large come against first round teams with the exception of the one time he made it past round 2.

There’s a bit of truth to that but I don’t know if that’s overly relevant anymore with league parity as it is and the recent formats. The Bolts played their worst opponent in the finals and arguably their best in the first round in ‘21. It’s not like the 80s where teams were beating up on some .400 record opponents in the first round.
 
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There’s a bit of truth to that but I don’t know if that’s overly relevant anymore with league parity as it is and the recent formats. The Bolts played their worst opponent in the finals and arguably their best in the first round in ‘21. It’s not like the 80s where teams were beating up on some .400 record opponents in the first round.
Hard to argue the effect of fatigue and also harder to keep up pace when sample size is so large. The Atlantic is also weird in that sense.
 
Hard to argue the effect of fatigue and also harder to keep up pace when sample size is so large. The Atlantic is also weird in that sense.

I don’t know if fatigue is an issue in terms of keeping production in later rounds. Everyone is fatigued as the rounds go on, but that would also include the defense you’re playing against
 
The thing about Jagr's level is that he maintained that dominance for so long. If we're talking peak, I think he has to be right there with him, if Kuch can do it for another 6-7 years then we have a conversation.
 
I don’t know if fatigue is an issue in terms of keeping production in later rounds. Everyone is fatigued as the rounds go on, but that would also include the defense you’re playing against

I think it does result in closer defensive battles though, but I haven’t dug into the overall stats to back this up. Usually the production of elite forwards tends to decrease in later rounds from what I’ve seen.
 
Kucherovs peak seems to be where Jagr's first peak was.

Jagr's second peak / post-KHL longevity was something else entirely.
Unless Kuch can get near Jagr's career numbers (like 3rd alltime) he's not going to really be in that category.
 
Kucherov is +200 at 5vs5 since entering the league, 2nd highest number in the NHL. He very significantly improves his teams goal differential.

Where does the narrative that he's not a dominant even strength player come from?

When you score as much as he does and play with an elite defenseman, center and goalie that entire time you better be a +200. Also don’t know where I’ve seen people claim he’s not a dominant even strength player.
 
Yeah that lack of support with a 95 point Kovalev, 95 point Straka, 80 point Lang and Mario Lemieux playing at nearly 2 PPG, lmao, this was the deadpuck era too that's like having 2 110 point linemates in today's game and saying he had no support.
Yay, you cherry picked one year and forgot about the other 4 years I mentioned, typical HF
 
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Kucherov is +200 at 5vs5 since entering the league, 2nd highest number in the NHL. He very significantly improves his teams goal differential.

Where does the narrative that he's not a dominant even strength player come from?
What is TBs even strength goal differential during that time? McDonagh, Hedman, Vasilevsky, and Point are sure going to help those numbers
 
I've had literally nothing against Kucherov and even somewhat supported/defended him for the all-star, award show stuff. Within the last 3 weeks though I've seen threads comparing him to Ovi, Crosby, and now Jagr and I absolutely despise the man. Enough.
I feel like comparisons between peaks is fair. Obviously Crosby and Jagr have better careers due to longevity and playing many more seasons… but peak is an argument. Kucherov got within 9 points of McDavid’s career best last year, and his peak is on Jagr’s level.

For me, pure peak level of play is something like this

Tier 1: McDavid
Tier 2: Jagr, Ovechkin, Kucherov, Crosby
 
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I feel like comparisons between peaks is fair. Obviously Crosby and Jagr have better careers due to longevity and playing many more seasons… but peak is an argument. Kucherov got within 9 points of McDavid’s career best last year, and his peak is on Jagr’s level.

For me, pure peak level of play is something like this

Tier 1: McDavid
Tier 2: Jagr, Ovechkin, Kucherov
Tier 3: Crosby

Kucherov better than Crosby? Not so sure about that one. Crosby is easily on a tier with them for peak, especially including playoffs. If anyone is a tier below it’s Kucherov.
 
Kucherov better than Crosby? Not so sure about that one. Crosby is easily on a tier with them for peak, especially including playoffs. If anyone is a tier below it’s Kucherov.
If we’re talking about a full season, Crosby doesn’t have anything like Kuch 2024, but yes, Crosby 2011-2013 is a step above.
 
Jagr's level of player was held in such high regard that several teams expected him to carry bottom of the barrel teams into the playoffs.... and he pulled it off for years.
 
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Yep, he's a great frontrunner though on a winning team when they can cover for his weaknesses
Fr, I've always sort've had this thought in mind even with Tampa as my 2nd team.

The 2023/24 season was insane and fully rose him up in my winger rankings all time but.....

If we're gonna be honest, Kuch realistically only has the 2016 and 2022 playoffs as a pure carry job IMO, every other year is elite production (PPG) on a heavily stacked team that can cover his weaknesses easily just like you said. It's obviously not his fault that he was drafted on a team with great management that has all major positions covered with elite talent but this also comes to my other statement........he lowkey needs another monster playoff run to fully CEMENT himself. Gretzky has his 93 playoff run, Lemieux has 92, Roy 93. Not playoffs, but Jagr has a 120+pt season with Straka and Nylander centering him.

Kuch's both cup winning years solidified him no doubt, but just look at the f***ing team LOL. He's still easily the bus driver for Tampa in the playoffs, but I don't think he'd be able to pull a 2022/2024 McDavid on a lesser team in a hypothetical scenario.
 
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