Is Kucherov on Jagr's level?

[wetcoast]

Has Mackinnon ever had back to bCk 30 point playoff runs carrying his team to back to back cups? Nope.

First of all Kuch wasn't "carrying his team" 2 other guys won the Conn Smythe thsoe years and Kuch aslo has 2 of the weeker posts seasons between him and Mack and Mack is only 29.

Even if one wants to give an "edge" to Kuch over Mack in the playoffs, that edge is extremely small.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

I think Jagr has an 8 year run that fits into the group above for forwards.

Hull and Mikita as well in the 60s to some extent.

Also what 8 year run are you talking about here as the above mentioned McDavid and also Draisaitl and Mack have kept pace with Kuch over the 8 years.

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Esposito's 70s run too.

68-75 he went:

2-1-2-1-1-1-1-2 in points
4-2-1-1-1-1-1-1 in goals
1-1-2-2-2-1-2-5 in assists

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

First of all Kuch wasn't "carrying his team" 2 other guys won the Conn Smythe thsoe years and Kuch aslo has 2 of the weeker posts seasons between him and Mack and Mack is only 29.

Even if one wants to give an "edge" to Kuch over Mack in the playoffs, that edge is extremely small.

and he pretty clearly got screwed out of at least 1 Smythe by the media because of what they considered a questionable missed season

 

[filinski77]

produces more in the clutch playoffs,

As long as the game isn't an elimination game or a clinching game LOL

 

[wetcoast]

Yeah that lack of support with a 95 point Kovalev, 95 point Straka, 80 point Lang and Mario Lemieux playing at nearly 2 PPG, lmao, this was the deadpuck era too that's like have 2 110 point linemates and saying he had no support.

5 year window and you are pointing out one season where Jagr still stands above easily?

Now compare the supporting cast of Kuch just to be fair.

 

[filinski77]

Thanks for sharing that - yeah, the biggest difference IMO is in goal scoring. Both all time-great playmakers but Jagr was a top goal scorer too and would probably have ended up with 900 goals if he didn’t leave for the KHL.

Kuch Goals: 2, 6, 9, 10
Jagr Goals: 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6

Agreed - Kucherov is very clearly the #2 player of the McDavid era, but the goalscoring difference is what holds him back from Jagr-level

 

[wetcoast]

and he pretty clearly got screwed out of at least 1 Smythe by the media because of what they considered a questionable missed season

Fair enough and I'm not one of those counting guys, Kuch has 2 Smythe worthy post seasons but the point is that comparing overall playoff careers and individual resumes the gap between Kuch and Mack is really small.

Kuch does have a gap on Jagr but that's a bit over stated at times too.

 

[wetcoast]

Esposito's 70s run too.

68-75 he went:

2-1-2-1-1-1-1-2 in points
4-2-1-1-1-1-1-1 in goals
1-1-2-2-2-1-2-5 in assists

That poster included Espositio in his list of forwards.

 

[atlanticobserver]

First of all Kuch wasn't "carrying his team" 2 other guys won the Conn Smythe thsoe years and Kuch aslo has 2 of the weeker posts seasons between him and Mack and Mack is only 29.

Even if one wants to give an "edge" to Kuch over Mack in the playoffs, that edge is extremely small.

Hedman had a historic playoff with 10 goals by a defenseman in one of those and Vasilevskiy had like a 0.950 with a 0.00 GAA in elimination games. Kuch could easily have won a Smythe either Cup year against the usual competition. He topped Crosby's best playoff run in terms of points twice, and Crosby has two Smythes!

 

[atlanticobserver]

I will say, Kuch probably plays at a similar level to Jagr but he has a long ways to go before you can confidently say that their careers are comparable. Jagr just has more longevity and hardware.

But seriously, we're going to keep acting like MacKinnon has had a better career than Kucherov? The difference in hardware between the two of them (3 Art Rosses and a Stanley Cup) is a hall of fame career!

 

[mel13666]

Agreed - Kucherov is very clearly the #2 player of the McDavid era, but the goalscoring difference is what holds him back from Jagr-level

Yes, McDavid is still #1, but Kucherov is damn good.

And to be honest, I would really like to see the Stanley Cup final Tampa vs. Edmonton. I think it would be a hell of a battle between two of the most outstanding players of the last 10 years. And Draisaitl would definitely have his say in those games, too.

 

[vancityluongo]

peak wise sure, but jagr's career legacy is largely defined by his longevity.

kucherov in an all-time sense is where jagr was in like, 2006.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Hedman had a historic playoff with 10 goals by a defenseman in one of those and Vasilevskiy had like a 0.950 with a 0.00 GAA in elimination games. Kuch could easily have won a Smythe either Cup year against the usual competition. He topped Crosby's best playoff run in terms of points twice, and Crosby has two Smythes!

Ah those cheated cups where the ltir was abused and the league laughably did nothing.

 

[The Macho King]

Esposito's 70s run too.

68-75 he went:

2-1-2-1-1-1-1-2 in points
4-2-1-1-1-1-1-1 in goals
1-1-2-2-2-1-2-5 in assists

Esposito has the "but Orr" argument. He's always going to be dinged for it.

 

[Video Nasty]

Esposito's 70s run too.

68-75 he went:

2-1-2-1-1-1-1-2 in points
4-2-1-1-1-1-1-1 in goals
1-1-2-2-2-1-2-5 in assists

That’s why I mentioned Esposito as having one of the greatest eight year runs in history. I have to admit, I’m not really sure what @wetcoast is saying to me in that quote.

Esposito has the "but Orr" argument. He's always going to be dinged for it.

It’s so damn lazy though. Esposito won a Hart and Art Ross before Orr went nutty and also finished higher in Hart voting in 1972-1973 and 1973-1974. Makes me sick how dismissive people are about him.

 

[atlanticobserver]

Ah those cheated cups where the ltir was abused and the league laughably did nothing.

Bruh, the Blackhawks were the first team to exploit LTIR in 2014-15 and the Lightning brought it to the league and they were the only team to vote in favor of changing the LTIR rules. Then Kucherov had hip surgery. Of the $16 million over the cap, it was really just Kucherov's $9.5 million + the contracts of Brent Seabrook and Marian Gaborik. Neither ever played a game for Tampa.

Keep that same energy if Florida wins this year.

 

[The Macho King]

That’s why I mentioned Esposito as having one of the greatest eight year runs in history. I have to admit, I’m not really sure what @wetcoast is saying to me in that quote.



It’s so damn lazy though. Esposito won a Hart and Art Ross before Orr went nutty and also finished higher in Hart voting in 1972-1973 and 1973-1974. Makes me sick how dismissive people are about him.

Him finishing higher than Orr in Hart voting is one of those things that just looks weird based on contemporary effusive praise Orr received. Felt like a bit of that "Dmen get the Norris" voting patterns.

He's probably overly dismissed, but at the same time Orr makes him just a confusing player to judge, because Orr was *so* transcendent.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

He's getting his Ross wins against better competition than Jagr ever did

Uhh.... Wuut?

 

[Hockey Outsider]

It’s so damn lazy though. Esposito won a Hart and Art Ross before Orr went nutty and also finished higher in Hart voting in 1972-1973 and 1973-1974. Makes me sick how dismissive people are about him.

Here's a post where I did a deep dive into the "Esposito was a product of Orr" argument. I had a mixed conclusion. Esposito was an all-time great scorer in his own right, but it's difficult to dispute that Orr helped his production. Overall, Esposito isn't quite as good as his numbers suggest, but he was still an exceptional talent.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

He's getting his Ross wins against better competition than Jagr ever did

Lol that’s absolutely comical.

 

[Video Nasty]

Here's a post where I did a deep dive into the "Esposito was a product of Orr" argument. I had a mixed conclusion. Esposito was an all-time great scorer in his own right, but it's difficult to dispute that Orr helped his production. Overall, Esposito isn't quite as good as his numbers suggest, but he was still an exceptional talent.

I’ll give it a read. No question Orr helped him—I just think the disrespect is unreal. Seems like no one can ever simply be allowed to admire Esposito.

 

[atlanticobserver]

He doesn’t produce more in the playoffs though. Last I checked they are both really close there. Kucherov scores more in blowouts and I’m not sure he’s more clutch than MacKinnon, MacKinnon has better stats in close games and elimination games. In the end both players are amazing but unless you look at points only I don’t see how Kucherov has the edge.

Kucherov's playoff stats are way more impressive because somewhere between a half and a third of them are in the later rounds where competition is stiffer and fatigue is a huge factor. MacKinnon's stats by and large come against first round teams with the exception of the one time he made it past round 2.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I’ll give it a read. No question Orr helped him—I just think the disrespect is unreal. Seems like no one can ever simply be allowed to admire Esposito.

I don't think it's too dissimilar to McDavid Draisaitl now or Lemieux Jagr in the 90s (though the Orr Esposito gap is bigger).

A clear #1 who is an all time great, but the #2 is still arguably the #2 in the league.

In the 1968-1975 time frame the general public perception is that Esposito is the best or second best forward in the league with Hull.

 

[Matsun]

I think Esposito in 68-69 is one of the most underrated seasons ever because it was before Orr exploded on to the scene. Here is the scoring up until December 27 1968 that season:

Player	GP	G	A	P	PPG	74 game pace
Hull	31	22	26	48	1,55	115
Howe	33	16	30	46	1,39	103
Esposito	32	22	19	41	1,28	95
Mikita	30	13	27	40	1,33	99
Pappin	32	19	21	40	1,25	93
Orr (21st)	32	10	19	29	0,91	67

Here are the scoring leaders after December 27:

Player	GP	G	A	P	PPG	74 game pace
Esposito	42	27	58	85	2,02	150
Hodge	43	36	28	63	1,49	110
Hull	43	36	23	59	1,37	102
Howe	43	28	29	57	1,33	98
Cournoyer	44	27	30	57	1,30	96
Orr (31st)	35	11	24	35	1	74

It's such a dominant run that I think he would've been fine without Orr. He set his career high in assists this season and it was really the goals that went berserk when Orr arrived. I think Esposito would remain a great playmaker and still win a few dominant scoring titles if we remove Orr in the weak 70s, but Espositos freaky goal totals are gone.

I have Esposito above Kucherov but I think Esposito is one of the hardest players to rank for obvious reasons.

 

[Regal]

I will say, Kuch probably plays at a similar level to Jagr but he has a long ways to go before you can confidently say that their careers are comparable. Jagr just has more longevity and hardware.

But seriously, we're going to keep acting like MacKinnon has had a better career than Kucherov? The difference in hardware between the two of them (3 Art Rosses and a Stanley Cup) is a hall of fame career!

That just tells us why trophy counting is a poor way to judge players. By any real measure they’re close as players. Kuch scoring 9 more points the last two years doesn’t define them, or make Kucherov necessarily better, but suddenly it’s 2 Art Rosses to 0.