Is Kucherov on Jagr's level?

[stevo61]

Definitely not. He doesn't even have his own peanut butter.

Or this

 

[centipede2233]

pull up jagr’s hockey db page and look at his 4 Art Ross wins 1997-2001. And now look at what he had for support. A 34 yr old Francis one year, German freaking Titov and straka another. Even his 2005/6 season with the rangers on a bismal ranger team scored 123 pts to Joe Thornton’s 125, Jagr was 33 and Thornton was 26…

 

[Felidae]

Since no one has done a statistical comparison, here's their stat finishes..

Kucherov
Points: 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 7
PPG: 1, 1, 1, 2, 4, 4, 5, 8
Goals: 2, 6, 9, 10
GPG: 2, 10

Jagr
Points: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2 ,2, 5, 6, 8, 9
PPG: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3
Goals: 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6
GPG: 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10

Even if we assume he would have finished top 3 in scoring the full season he missed in 2020-21, it still doesn't quite match Jagr.

If we're comparing their peaks, Kucherov's 2023-24 season can compete with Jagr's best. But Jagr was simply a more consistent art Ross threat as shown by the finishes, ...and it doesn't help Jagr was one by 22, and Kucherov wasn't one until 24.


Kucherov would need to have one of the better post 30 careers of all time to match Jagr's overall prime, and to be fair, he's already on his way given 2 of his 3 art Ross trophies are in his 30s.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Or this
View attachment 1015581

After crushing a nice Jagr Pb on toast, you can wash it down with a nice refreshing Jagr Lagr.

 

[Video Nasty]

Since no one has done a statistical comparison, here's their stat finishes..

Kucherov
Points: 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 7
PPG: 1, 1, 1, 2, 4, 4, 5, 8
Goals: 2, 6, 9, 10
GPG: 2, 10

Jagr
Points: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2 ,2, 5, 6, 8, 9
PPG: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3
Goals: 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6
GPG: 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10

Even if we assume he would have finished top 3 in scoring the full season he missed in 2020-21, it still doesn't quite match Jagr.

If we're comparing their peaks, Kucherov's 2023-24 season can compete with Jagr's best. But Jagr was simply a more consistent art Ross threat as shown by the finishes, ...and it doesn't help Jagr was one by 22, and Kucherov wasn't one until 24.


Kucherov would need to have one of the better post 30 careers of all time to match Jagr's overall prime, and to be fair, he's already on his way given 2 of his 3 art Ross trophies are in his 30s.

Yes, Jagr has an eight season run that is really only topped or equaled amongst forwards by Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, McDavid, and Esposito.

As sublime as Kucherov has been for a number of years now, he’s still behind Jagr.

I think he would need to pick up 2 of the next 3 Art Rosses, win another Hart and a Lindsay or two, and have us look in retrospect at something like there being a full five season stretch where he denied McDavid expected hardware post the 153 point season to make it a really interesting comparison.

 

[Victorias]

Since no one has done a statistical comparison, here's their stat finishes..

Kucherov
Points: 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 7
PPG: 1, 1, 1, 2, 4, 4, 5, 8
Goals: 2, 6, 9, 10
GPG: 2, 10

Jagr
Points: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2 ,2, 5, 6, 8, 9
PPG: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3
Goals: 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6
GPG: 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10

Even if we assume he would have finished top 3 in scoring the full season he missed in 2020-21, it still doesn't quite match Jagr.

If we're comparing their peaks, Kucherov's 2023-24 season can compete with Jagr's best. But Jagr was simply a more consistent art Ross threat as shown by the finishes, ...and it doesn't help Jagr was one by 22, and Kucherov wasn't one until 24.


Kucherov would need to have one of the better post 30 careers of all time to match Jagr's overall prime, and to be fair, he's already on his way given 2 of his 3 art Ross trophies are in his 30s.

Thanks for sharing that - yeah, the biggest difference IMO is in goal scoring. Both all time-great playmakers but Jagr was a top goal scorer too and would probably have ended up with 900 goals if he didn’t leave for the KHL.

Kuch Goals: 2, 6, 9, 10
Jagr Goals: 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6

 

[authentic]

Jagr's longevity is what makes it really hard to overtake him imo, he finished his career well above PPG totals even though he played into his mid 40s, and even had a 66 point season at age 44 which is just straight up insanity.

That doesn’t even do it justice calling it a 66 point season, it would be more like 80+ today as he finished 21st in points and only 6 even strength points away from 2nd place Crosby, with actual better possession metrics than Crosby. I really don’t even know if current Crosby or Ovechkin are more effective players than that.

 

[authentic]

Thanks for sharing that - yeah, the biggest difference IMO is in goal scoring. Both all time-great playmakers but Jagr was a top goal scorer too and would probably have ended up with 900 goals if he didn’t leave for the KHL.

Kuch Goals: 2, 6, 9, 10
Jagr Goals: 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6

Jagr is 2nd all time in adjusted goals.

 

[authentic]

Since no one has done a statistical comparison, here's their stat finishes..

Kucherov
Points: 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 7
PPG: 1, 1, 1, 2, 4, 4, 5, 8
Goals: 2, 6, 9, 10
GPG: 2, 10

Jagr
Points: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2 ,2, 5, 6, 8, 9
PPG: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3
Goals: 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6
GPG: 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10

Even if we assume he would have finished top 3 in scoring the full season he missed in 2020-21, it still doesn't quite match Jagr.

If we're comparing their peaks, Kucherov's 2023-24 season can compete with Jagr's best. But Jagr was simply a more consistent art Ross threat as shown by the finishes, ...and it doesn't help Jagr was one by 22, and Kucherov wasn't one until 24.


Kucherov would need to have one of the better post 30 careers of all time to match Jagr's overall prime, and to be fair, he's already on his way given 2 of his 3 art Ross trophies are in his 30s.

Everyone keeps saying match like points are the only thing that matters though. Jagr dominated the puck far better, much better transition and possession player (not that Kucherov is not good here as well, but he’s more like LA Kings Gretzky where his point totals are not necessarily placing him above everyone else with fewer points).

 

[Matsun]

I think Kucherov is at Lafleur tier right now but Jagr is at the next level.

Kucherov
Points: 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 7
PPG: 1, 1, 1, 2, 4, 4, 5, 8
Hart: 1, 2, 6, 8

Lafleur
Points: 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 4
PPG: 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 10
Hart: 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Jagr
Points: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2 ,2, 5, 6, 8, 9
PPG: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3
Hart: 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 7

Lafleur was ranked 23rd all time on the last HOH top 100 players project and Jagr was 16th.

 

[RussianBum86]

In comparison to players like Forsberg and Jagr? I mean I could see the case that the margins are slim but I still see clear separation here.

Well, I just wrote an essay on on why I believe he’s clearly worse than them and it got erased, so long story short I’ll just say not long ago he was being compared to Patrick Kane with a nearly 50/50 split in votes, and since then hasn’t really gotten better as a player but rather added more peak seasons to his career… someone like Jagr for instance had a better corsi (I wish advanced stats existed back during the 90s) in his age 43/44 season on a young Panthers team than Kucherov has had in his career, and during his peak he was a notably better goal scorer and equal if not better offensively in the playoffs with far worse linemates.

Forsberg brought all that to the table as well as being excellent defensively and physically, also matching if not surpassing Kucherov’s offense in the playoffs.

Jagr/Forsberg
MacKinnon
Kucherov

Kucherov is better than Mackinnon. Scores more , produces more against better teams, produces more in the clutch playoffs, and can lead his team to back to back cups.

 

[Midnight Judges]

longevity has to matter because it provides real value to the team.

Jagr has fabulous longevity. Kucherov does not at this point.

So I answered no.

 

[bobholly39]

I rank Jagr super high - he's ~8th all-time for me. So I voted no. Even though I'm very high on Kucherov and generally find it ridiculous how much some people underrate him.

I think career-wise, Kucherov is ahead of Sakic and on the ~Messier/Lafleur tier. But - he's still in the midst of his prime/peak years, so he can keep on climbing.

 

[authentic]

Kucherov is better than Mackinnon. Scores more , produces more against better teams, produces more in the clutch playoffs, and can lead his team to back to back cups.

He doesn’t produce more in the playoffs though. Last I checked they are both really close there. Kucherov scores more in blowouts and I’m not sure he’s more clutch than MacKinnon, MacKinnon has better stats in close games and elimination games. In the end both players are amazing but unless you look at points only I don’t see how Kucherov has the edge.

 

[authentic]

I think Kucherov is at Lafleur tier right now but Jagr is at the next level.

Kucherov
Points: 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 7
PPG: 1, 1, 1, 2, 4, 4, 5, 8
Hart: 1, 2, 6, 8

Lafleur
Points: 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 4
PPG: 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 10
Hart: 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Jagr
Points: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2 ,2, 5, 6, 8, 9
PPG: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3
Hart: 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 7

Lafleur was ranked 23rd all time on the last HOH top 100 players project and Jagr was 16th.

Jagr should be top 10 really, but I get that 5-15 or even 20 are fairly close. His longevity should separate him enough from players in the top 10-20 range though.

 

[authentic]

Also, scores more against better teams. Isn’t that just the past one or two seasons? What about the entirety of their primes?

 

[RussianBum86]

He doesn’t produce more in the playoffs though. Last I checked they are both really close there. Kucherov scores more in blowouts and I’m not sure he’s more clutch than MacKinnon, MacKinnon has better stats in close games and elimination games. In the end both players are amazing but unless you look at points only I don’t see how Kucherov has the edge.

Has Mackinnon ever had back to baCk 30 point playoff runs carrying his team to back to back cups? Nope.

 

[daver]

Has Mackinnon ever had back to bCk 30 point playoff runs carrying his team to back to back cups? Nope.

If he had extra games like Kucherov did in the 2020 Covid Cup (oops, sorry, meant to say Stanley Cup) playoffs he gets to 30 points.

Mac "carried" the Avs in 2022 asmuch. Kucherov "carried" the Bolts (i.e. neither was voted MVP) and beat him in head to head stats (higher PPG, more goals, better plus/minus) in 2022.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

If he had extra games like Kucherov did in the 2020 Covid Cup (oops, sorry, meant to say Stanley Cup) playoffs he gets to 30 points.

Mac "carried" the Avs in 2022 asmuch. Kucherov "carried" the Bolts (i.e. neither was voted MVP) and beat him in head to head stats (higher PPG, more goals, better plus/minus) in 2022.

Despite the "covid cup" claims, Kucherov played 25 games in those playoffs, not an astronomical number. He also had a better PPG (1.36) than MacKinnon 2022 (1.20)

Call me crazy, but I dont think a guy who was 3rd on his team in playoff scoring carried them as much as the guy who led his team in scoring.

One last note, the 2022 match up was pretty even. MacKinnon had more points 6 to 4, but Kucherov had the better +/- with +3 vs -1

 

[Sky04]

pull up jagr’s hockey db page and look at his 4 Art Ross wins 1997-2001. And now look at what he had for support. A 34 yr old Francis one year, German freaking Titov and straka another. Even his 2005/6 season with the rangers on a bismal ranger team scored 123 pts to Joe Thornton’s 125, Jagr was 33 and Thornton was 26…

Yeah that lack of support with a 95 point Kovalev, 95 point Straka, 80 point Lang and Mario Lemieux playing at nearly 2 PPG, lmao, this was the deadpuck era too that's like having 2 110 point linemates in today's game and saying he had no support.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Yes he is on Jagr’s level. You can argue who’s better all you want, but it’s close nonetheless. Kucherov is in the next tier of offensive talent after Gretzky/Lemieux. (along with McDavid and Jagr).


Kucherov missed a good amount of time right in the middle of his prime due to injuries, so that doesn’t really apply to him.

Difficult to place Kucherov in the McDavid tier either.

 

[qcal1427]

I've had literally nothing against Kucherov and even somewhat supported/defended him for the all-star, award show stuff. Within the last 3 weeks though I've seen threads comparing him to Ovi, Crosby, and now Jagr and I absolutely despise the man. Enough.

 

[DFC]

longevity has to matter because it provides real value to the team.

Jagr has fabulous longevity. Kucherov does not at this point.

So I answered no.

Agreed. I think Kucherov has shown he can match Jagr's level (in the abstract), but Kucherov hit his prime later. I would argue his first 100 point season was still not his prime, but also that he has a good chance to maintain his current level of play longer than most players. His game is so cerebral, and he doesn't rely on athletics. Sort of like post-prime Mario.

 

[landy]

No Jagrs peak was best in the world and he did it in a much harder era to score.

Then add in longevity and Jagr is in a class of his own. If kuch plays until 45, sure, can start that conversation.

 

[wetcoast]

Yes, Jagr has an eight season run that is really only topped or equaled amongst forwards by Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, McDavid, and Esposito.

As sublime as Kucherov has been for a number of years now, he’s still behind Jagr.

I think he would need to pick up 2 of the next 3 Art Rosses, win another Hart and a Lindsay or two, and have us look in retrospect at something like there being a full five season stretch where he denied McDavid expected hardware post the 153 point season to make it a really interesting comparison.

I think Jagr has an 8 year run that fits into the group above for forwards.

Hull and Mikita as well in the 60s to some extent.

Also what 8 year run are you talking about here as the above mentioned McDavid and also Draisaitl and Mack have kept pace with Kuch over the 8 years.

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