Is Kucherov on Jagr's level?

[daver]

Simple question

 

[Booker T]

Yes, but he hasn’t surpassed Jagr imo.

 

[authentic]

I don’t know, I don’t think he’s as good as someone like Forsberg, though offensively he’s somewhere between the two.

He just doesn’t impact the game in enough ways to say he’s on Jagrs level or better than Forsberg, he’s an extraordinary offensive talent and playmaker though with a chance to rise on an all-time level if he keeps this up a few more seasons.

Then there’s also the question of how much stock we should put in the length of his prime when every other top player from this era looks to be having an extended prime due to the NHL becoming a no hit league.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

Not yet but he's getting there.

 

[Draiskull]

Similar in terms of being declared a great player by most yet still a bit under the radar when it comes to being the face of the league.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Yes he is on Jagr’s level. You can argue who’s better all you want, but it’s close nonetheless. Kucherov is in the next tier of offensive talent after Gretzky/Lemieux. (along with McDavid and Jagr).

I don’t know, I don’t think he’s as good as someone like Forsberg, though offensively he’s somewhere between the two.

He just doesn’t impact the game in enough ways to say he’s on Jagrs level or better than Forsberg, he’s an extraordinary offensive talent and playmaker though with a chance to rise on an all-time level if he keeps this up a few more seasons.

Then there’s also the question of how much stock we should put in the length of his prime when every other top player from this era looks to be having an extended prime due to the NHL becoming a no hit league.

Kucherov missed a good amount of time right in the middle of his prime due to injuries, so that doesn’t really apply to him.

 

[authentic]

Yes he is on Jagr’s level. You can argue who’s better all you want, but it’s close nonetheless. Kucherov is in the next tier of offensive talent after Gretzky/Lemieux. (along with McDavid and Jagr).


Kucherov missed a good amount of time right in the middle of his prime due to injuries, so that doesn’t really apply to him.

Actually that’s a good point, but it’s still easier to stay healthy in the long run during this era, but we’ll see how he ages compared to his peers, so far looking good considering he’s older than MacKinnon and McDavid and just outscored them two years in a row.

 

[Regal]

I think his offense is close. I think Jagr has a clearly greater effect on the game due to his puck possession

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Another thing not to forget. Jagr benefitted from almost 2 more power play opportunities per game during his peak.

Could you imagine what current Kucherov would accomplish with ~1,5-2 more opportunities per game? As an example, he’s been scoring a point at a 20% rate per power play opportunity for the last 2 seasons. 130 more opportunities could give him approximately 26 more points per season based on those averages. He would obviously lose time at ES that way so it wouldn’t necessarily give him that much more points, but still an interesting fact to point out. That can be used to partially compensate the difference in overall scoring between eras.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

He's getting his Ross wins against better competition than Jagr ever did

 

[Beyonder91]

This is a question you ask at the end of Kucherov's career. Jagr played more than 2x the games Kucherov has.

 

[DFC]

I don’t know, I don’t think he’s as good as someone like Forsberg, though offensively he’s somewhere between the two.

He just doesn’t impact the game in enough ways to say he’s on Jagrs level or better than Forsberg, he’s an extraordinary offensive talent and playmaker though with a chance to rise on an all-time level if he keeps this up a few more seasons.

Then there’s also the question of how much stock we should put in the length of his prime when every other top player from this era looks to be having an extended prime due to the NHL becoming a no hit league.

I would strongly argue against the point on his impact.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Definitely not. He doesn't even have his own peanut butter.

 

[DFC]

This is a question you ask at the end of Kucherov's career. Jagr played more than 2x the games Kucherov has.

True, but to me it's fair because I think you can reasonably project Kucherov to end up above the Sakic/Yzerman tier. While he has a while to go to have a career in Jagr's ballpark, he's kind of running the race at Jagr's speed, if that makes any sense.

Kucherov is doing things, particularly as a playmaker, that only the greatest of all time have done. 100 assists; 3 straight 80+ assist seasons. 144 points. And he's probably a top-20ish goal-scorer in the league too.

With a third Art Ross, I think it's pretty natural to start placing him in history. Nothing is cemented until he gets close to the end, but some of his achievements already put him in rare air.

 

[Fantomas]

Peak level is about the same, with less longevity (as of now) and better playoff results.

 

[Video Nasty]

Not quite, but it’s close.

Jagr was probably top 10 all-time when he left at age 35. Granted, it’s harder to crack into the top 10 now, with full careers of Crosby and Ovechkin close to wrapping up, and of course McDavid.

But four more seasons of similar play or slightly less than this season? By then, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that he has 4 or 5 total Art Rosses, 500+ goals, 1400+ points, 200+ playoff points, maybe another Hart and Lindsay along the way, and another season or two of leading in assists.

I think it will be fairly easy to slide Kucherov inside the top 20 by that point.

 

[authentic]

I would strongly argue against the point on his impact.

In comparison to players like Forsberg and Jagr? I mean I could see the case that the margins are slim but I still see clear separation here.

Well, I just wrote an essay on on why I believe he’s clearly worse than them and it got erased, so long story short I’ll just say not long ago he was being compared to Patrick Kane with a nearly 50/50 split in votes, and since then hasn’t really gotten better as a player but rather added more peak seasons to his career… someone like Jagr for instance had a better corsi (I wish advanced stats existed back during the 90s) in his age 43/44 season on a young Panthers team than Kucherov has had in his career, and during his peak he was a notably better goal scorer and equal if not better offensively in the playoffs with far worse linemates.

Forsberg brought all that to the table as well as being excellent defensively and physically, also matching if not surpassing Kucherov’s offense in the playoffs.

Jagr/Forsberg
MacKinnon
Kucherov

 

[tabness]

kucheroverrated

 

[Run It Back]

As much as I appreciate Kucherov (for my money he is the most mesmerizing and creative player in the game today where as McDavid combines speed and creativity and McKinnon raw power with speed), I don't think that there is an argument that he is at Jagr's level and there is little chance that he will get anywhere close statistically. Aside from Jagr's size and durability, even by age 31, Kuch's age now, Jagr had more than 300 more points and a 50+ and a 60+ goal season under his belt, not to mention that Jagr did much of his damage during the "dead puck era" with a ton of games against trapping teams.

The one place where Kuch has been every bit Jagr's equal, and actually somewhat better, is as a playoff performer.

 

[DFC]

In comparison to players like Forsberg and Jagr? I mean I could see the case that the margins are slim but I still see clear separation here.

Well, I just wrote an essay on on why I believe he’s clearly worse than them and it got erased, so long story short I’ll just say not long ago he was being compared to Patrick Kane with a nearly 50/50 split in votes, and since then hasn’t really gotten better as a player but rather added more peak seasons to his career… someone like Jagr for instance had a better corsi (I wish advanced stats existed back during the 90s) in his age 43/44 season on a young Panthers team than Kucherov has had in his career, and during his peak he was a notably better goal scorer and equal if not better offensively in the playoffs with far worse linemates.

Forsberg brought all that to the table as well as being excellent defensively and physically, also matching if not surpassing Kucherov’s offense in the playoffs.

Jagr/Forsberg
MacKinnon
Kucherov

Depends where you rank Forsberg. I would have him below Sakic, and Kucherov ahead of both.

It's really a stretch to say Forsberg surpasses Kucherov's offense in the playoffs.

I think Jagr is the tier above Sakic and Yzerman. Kucherov fits into that "above" tier. Where he fits will play out as hid career moves along, but Jagr is near the top of that tier IMO. I just don't think you can downplay 3 art Ross trophies, and he's the best playoff performer in his franchise's history. And it's hard to argue he's not the best playmaking winger of all time.

 

[Turin]

No

 

[authentic]

Depends where you rank Forsberg. I would have him below Sakic, and Kucherov ahead of both.

It's really a stretch to say Forsberg surpasses Kucherov's offense in the playoffs.

I think Jagr is the tier above Sakic and Yzerman. Kucherov fits into that "above" tier. Where he fits will play out as hid career moves along, but Jagr is near the top of that tier IMO. I just don't think you can downplay 3 art Ross trophies, and he's the best playoff performer in his franchise's history. And it's hard to argue he's not the best playmaking winger of all time.

Not at all, him and Forsberg are right there with each other in adjusted totals for peak and career, except Forsberg had better goal scoring and did it as a two-way force.

Longevity is one thing Kucherov will have over Forsberg, but a better player he is not.

 

[Jared Grayden]

Jagr's longevity puts him ahead right now. Kucherov will need to be very good for much longer to match Jagr in that regard.

 

[DFC]

As much as I appreciate Kucherov (for my money he is the most mesmerizing and creative player in the game today where as McDavid combines speed and creativity and McKinnon raw power with speed), I don't think that there is an argument that he is at Jagr's level and there is little chance that he will get anywhere close statistically. Aside from Jagr's size and durability, even by age 31, Kuch's age now, Jagr had more than 300 more points and a 50+ and a 60+ goal season under his belt, not to mention that Jagr did much of his damage during the "dead puck era" with a ton of games against trapping teams.

The one place where Kuch has been every bit Jagr's equal, and actually somewhat better, is as a playoff performer.

By this logic, you're saying Jagr would be hording art Ross trophies in the mcdavid era, which I don't think is quite true. I think he would win some, just as Kucherov has. But nobody else has taken one from him.

Jagr definitely has the edge as a goalscorer, but Kucherov is the best playmaking winger in history.

And Kucherov was a bit of a late bloomer, who also missed a year of his prime and lost significant reg season games to covid. So I don't think it's quite fair to compare them relative to age.

Jagr is still ahead of Kucherov, no argument there, but they're in the same tier. And Kucherov does have time to get on equal footing.

 

[BoHorvat 53]

Jagr's longevity is what makes it really hard to overtake him imo, he finished his career well above PPG totals even though he played into his mid 40s, and even had a 66 point season at age 44 which is just straight up insanity.