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Is Jagr the greatest European player of all time?

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Yes, it's him or Hasek. Lidström at number three. Ovechkin will squeeze in at number three if he continues like this.
 
I'm not clear if the OP meant 'exclusively based on NHL play' or just any hockey player who has ever played, like, 1 game in the NHL.

But anyway, my answer would be "maybe". I think Jagr is in a dead-heat with Dominik Hasek based on NHL performance. If we're talking beyond NHL performance, I'd probably say Hasek is #1 and Jagr #2. It's rather surprising that the top-two are Czech.

Lidstrom and Ovechkin are obviously near the top as well, but for me they're under Hasek and Jagr.

Whether or not Soviet players such as Makarov and Fetisov get a nod is left up in the air due to the ambiguity in the OP's wording.
 
Mean Gene said:
Canadiens Won 5 cups during Harvey’s prime. Coincidence? I think not. The guy won 7 Norris in 8 years.

You’re probably one of posters who think Ovechkin is better than Howe eh?

Looking at numbers without context. You cant be serious..
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Red Wings won 4 cups(in a larger and more competive league) with Lidström and he won some Norris aswell but in his case people like you dismiss it by exactly the same factors as I maintain that Harvey, to an even larger degree, benefited from.

Or do you seriously believe that an almost exclusively canadian league in the 50s or so was more competive than the time in which Lidström earned his Norris collection? Heck you even said yourself that he "reinvented the position"(whatever that means as Shore played pretty much the same style earlier) which would mean his competition infact would be close to zero compared to that of Lidström.

I dont rank Ovechkin above Howe but I do rank him above Crosby(both are fringe top 10 all time albeit Crosby more ) for obvious reasons, arguably the greatest goal scorer of all time vs a 20 game peak but I mean that is obviously even more off topic so idk why you felt the need to bring it up. Howe I rank 3rd behind Gretzky, in his own tier really, and Orr but I could be ok with ranking Lemieux above depending on daily mood.
 
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TT1 said:
:laugh: this thread

@Laveuglette @Claude Pepe Lemieux @Mrb1p @Mean Gene @bluesfan94 @The Macho Man @DaveG @UConn126

Sure Ray had better offensive production than Lidstrom but he also played in a different era, he was also more physical than Lid obviously. That said, Lidstrom had way more impact than Bourque did in a game, his defensive play (positional play/stickwork/defensive IQ) was better and he was more consistent. Based on era adjusted points Bourque would have ~5 more points a season than Lidstrom which doesn't make up for all the other elements that Lidstrom brought to a game (defensive game, made the players around him better, insanely high hockey IQ).

The game also started evolving by the time Lidstrom stepped into the league, he pretty much started his career during the dead puck era (~97). The game modernized and teams started playing way more systematic than they did in the past. Factoring all those aspects, that's why Lidstrom is the clear #2 for me.

Also let's not disregard the fact that Bourque never won a cup in Boston (or Team Canada) regardless of him playing on some insanely strong teams (1st place finishing teams).

IaAqfoW.png

NHLPA Player Poll 2017-18
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The fact that that poll included Niedermayer and not Harvey or Shore is all I need to know.
 
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I wonder where he'd be ranked all time if he hadn't wasted 4 years of his prime being pouty and disinterested, basically stole money from Washington when they gave him that big contract. He won 4 at Ross trophies in a row and in one of those seasons he only played 63 games. He could have easily made it 8 in a row based on his 123 point season with the Rangers in his first full season with the Rangers after his stint with Washington.
 
OP,

You need to decide what you're asking

You have "greatest" in the title, but use "best" in your post

They are not the same thing
 
tarheelhockey said:
Ovechkin - ? - Jagr
Lidstrom - Fetisov
Hasek

The margins between them are so narrow that it comes down mostly to personal preference and generational perspectives. None of them is way out ahead of the others. Personally, late-90s Hasek is maybe the most consistently dominant player I've ever seen and I'd have a very hard time ranking him anything but #1 in this group.

It's interesting that there really hasn't been THAT European center. Perhaps it would have been Forsberg in an alternate reality where he was much healthier.
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Forsberg in his prime and top form and healthy should be definetely TOP 5 european NHL-er (not counting Sergei Makarov)

Oveckin - Bure/P. Forsberg - Jagr
Lidstrom - Fetisov
Hasek
 
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It’s defintitely Lidstrom and his 7 Norris trophies. He was elite his entire career, start to finish, has 4 Cups spread throughout his career in which he won the Conn Smythe and was Captain, the first European no less, all with the same team; and still carried the team even when all the greats before him retired or left.

Jagr was amazing on the Pens and had one amazing year in NYR, but he was no longer elite after his return from the KHL. He was basically a stat padding mercenary after he returned. He was well past his expeirary date when he retired.
 
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bluesfan94 said:
The fact that that poll included Niedermayer and not Harvey or Shore is all I need to know.
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The fact that you cant present a counter-argument to the points i brought up is all i need to know.

Pretending you know more about hockey than you actually do (by just LOL'ing) without presenting anything of substance is easy, anyone could do that. And oh yea, im sure you've seen Harvey and Shore play plenty of times.
 
In my opinion yes. Followed by Hasek, Ovechkin, Lidström in that order. All 4 are quite close though especially since it's hard to judge between different positions unless there is a real outlier.
 
DaveG said:
Hasek


No it doesn't.

Bourque, Harvey, Shore, even Potvin all have extremely strong claims for it.
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Potvin does not have a ”extremely strong” case for being the 2nd best but the others for sure, including Nick.
 
Jagr way past his prime when he came back into the league twice he was the best point producer on the Devils and Panthers. There is no way in hell Ovi will be like this in his 40's if he is still paying by then.. I don't think people here get it.. No man other other Gretzky and Lemieux won 4 consecutive Art Ross in a row playing on teams that were barely playoff teams. Hell he was the team for the Pens. Crosby could never do this. I just love the fact how people negate the fact he is all the all time point producer in NHL history after he great one.. How in the world anyone here puts Hasek above him. Hasek is not #2 of or 1 in greatest NHL Goalies of all time.. Jagr is legitimate top 5 players of NHL all time period.
 
Hasek is #1 in my book, followed by Jagr. My dad saw Kharlamov live, and thinks he was Gretzky-level good.
 
TT1 said:
The fact that you cant present a counter-argument to the points i brought up is all i need to know.

Pretending you know more about hockey than you actually do (by just LOL'ing) without presenting anything of substance is easy, anyone could do that. And oh yea, im sure you've seen Harvey and Shore play plenty of times.
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It was bedtime, but my point is that Harvey and Shore are people that are universally considered top 5 defensemen and weren't even considered in that poll, or at least weren't named. You're right; I haven't seen Harvey or Shore play. I also haven't see Orr play. Further, I haven't really seen Gretzky play, but I still know enough to know that he's the greatest player of all time.

Don't get me wrong, I adore Lidstrom. He was a joy to watch and I say that as a fan of a (former) rival team. His stickwork and positioning were otherworldly. But to say that he's inarguably the second best defenseman is laughable. Certainly in top 5 with the group that includes, IMO, Lidstrom, Shore, Harvey, and Bourque.
 
bluesfan94 said:
It was bedtime, but my point is that Harvey and Shore are people that are universally considered top 5 defensemen and weren't even considered in that poll, or at least weren't named. You're right; I haven't seen Harvey or Shore play. I also haven't see Orr play. Further, I haven't really seen Gretzky play, but I still know enough to know that he's the greatest player of all time.

Don't get me wrong, I adore Lidstrom. He was a joy to watch and I say that as a fan of a (former) rival team. His stickwork and positioning were otherworldly. But to say that he's inarguably the second best defenseman is laughable. Certainly in top 5 with the group that includes, IMO, Lidstrom, Shore, Harvey, and Bourque.
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I will not forget Paul Coffey.
 
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