Is It Time for a Norris Trophy AND a "Best Offensive Defenseman Trophy"?

[NewLife]

Oh yes.

But when was the last time the league introduce a new trophy?

 

[Micklebot]

Here's the problem. People are assuming that by having a best offensive Dman award, voters will change how they vote for the Norris. That might not happen.

I'd rather see a defensive defenseman award that can recognize guys like Regehr at his peek, Hamhuis, Vlasic, ect. Those guys don't get a sniff of the Norris, but still contribute a ton to their teams and deserve some recognition.

 

[Cool Bryz]

"Points" is not the only thing favoring EK and PK, they are also dominant possession wise (more so than Doughty).

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...eamid=0&type=corsi&sort=F60RelTM&sortdir=DESC

What's wrong with acknowledging an "offensive" defenseman as the best at his position this year? It's not the fault of EK or PK that there is no one with the defensive ability of Denis Potvin or all around game of Ray Bourque in the league today.

 

[Sureves]

You can make the awards as you see fit, but it would just result - often - in the same guy winning both of them, and you complaining again.

If you want to make a best offensive defenseman award and a best defensive defenseman award, that would make sense - but it would result in no longer awarding the Norris (since that would go to the guy who wins the best offensive defenseman award more often than not).

People fail to realize scoring points is an important part of the game. People also fail to realize that voters are voting on who they think is the best overall defenseman. And oftentimes that consensus is Karlsson.

You're better off making a best defensive defenseman award and having Weber compete for that, but of course, then team's of purely defensive defenseman (i.e. not the same offensive output as Weber) would complain when their guy loses.

 

[Frank the Tank]

Oh yes.

But when was the last time the league introduce a new trophy?

The silly Messier Leadership Award. If you mean an actual trophy, then the Rocket Richard for most goals was created in 1999.

If you want to reclaim two NHL awards towards their purpose as written, add the Orr Trophy for highest scoring defenseman and Howe Trophy for best forward. These awards will provide more balance for people voting for the Norris and Hart Trophies, respectively. While they are at it add in a Gretzky Trophy for most assists, which has precedent with the Rocket Richard Trophy for the most goals.

The league thereby honors three legends of the game and cleans up the mercurial nature of voting for the Norris and Hart.

 

[Caps8112]

This is all Mike Greens fault

 

[Ishdul]

It's a bad idea to split the award. They already vote on best defenseman and I don't think there's a reason to believe that they're going to change their minds on how they do that because of an additional award. Based on how they view the Art Ross and the Hart I don't think they'll have any issues doubling the size of Karlsson's trophy room.

Oh yes.

But when was the last time the league introduce a new trophy?

Of ones that get press, Rocket Richard was '99?

 

[Sting]

In my opinion what people are actually asking for is a separate trophy for "Best Defensive Defenseman". Similar to the Selke for forwards. If you make a "best offensive d-man" award, I can guarantee you EK (and possibly PK) will double dip with the best overall defenseman.

As it stands, the Norris awards the trophy for the best overall defenseman. Regardless of a position a player plays, you need to evaluate their effect on a game. Currently EK and PK are two of the best at this and I don't think that's remotely debatable.

Is Shea Weber a better defensive defenseman than either of these two? Sure. Does he change the game the way these two do? Compared to EK, the answer is no, and that is why he'll win his second Norris this year.

 

[Ishdul]

In my opinion what people are actually asking for is a separate trophy for "Best Defensive Defenseman". Similar to the Selke for forwards. If you make a "best offensive d-man" award, I can guarantee you EK (and possibly PK) will double dip with the best overall defenseman.

As it stands, the Norris awards the trophy for the best overall defenseman. Regardless of a position a player plays, you need to evaluate their effect on a game. Currently EK and PK are two of the best at this and I don't think that's remotely debatable.

Is Shea Weber a better defensive defenseman than either of these two? Sure. Does he change the game the way these two do? Compared to EK, the answer is no, and that is why he'll win his second Norris this year.

I don't think there's much indication that they'd be good at voting for best defensive defenseman so we'd see a lot of similar complaints but with slightly different names a la the Selke. I also slightly question both whether Weber would have won it and heavily question whether he would have deserved to have won it.

 

[gnarls barkley]

"Points" is not the only thing favoring EK and PK, they are also dominant possession wise (more so than Doughty).

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...eamid=0&type=corsi&sort=F60RelTM&sortdir=DESC

What's wrong with acknowledging an "offensive" defenseman as the best at his position this year? It's not the fault of EK or PK that there is no one with the defensive ability of Denis Potvin or all around game of Ray Bourque in the league today.

how does any part of that prove that EK and PK are more dominant possession-wise than Doughty? you realize he plays a lot with Muzzin, who's literally the best possession D man (as far as Corsi is concerned) in the league, which will skew those stats. Doughty is absolutely dominant possession-wise, that should be the last thing you should argue if you're touting the relative benefits of EK/PK.

 

[gnarls barkley]

Is Shea Weber a better defensive defenseman than either of these two? Sure. Does he change the game the way these two do? Compared to EK, the answer is no, and that is why he'll win his second Norris this year.

having a workhorse #1 D who can both play shutdown and contribute offensively is DEFINITELY game changing, just because he doesn't score flashy goals and isn't the best PP QB doesn't mean he isn't game changing. It's the same reason why having a great two-way 1C is valued so highly these days, as opposed to the guy who puts up more points but can't backcheck to save his life.

 

[Habsawce]

Just make an Erik Karlsson award, give it to him every year no matter what and keep these Ottawa fans happy.

 

[THall4]

Can probably name it after Bobby Orr or Paul Coffey or something...more likely Orr

And yes, I believe it is time for one.

 

[evermix*]

No. Just start handing out the Norris trophy to the best overall defenseman again.

Karlsson, was the best overall defenseman this year. He's underrated defensively, and carried his team into the playoffs. Doesn't get more obvious than that. Otherwise, it should've went to Weber.

 

[Sting]

having a workhorse #1 D who can both play shutdown and contribute offensively is DEFINITELY game changing, just because he doesn't score flashy goals and isn't the best PP QB doesn't mean he isn't game changing. It's the same reason why having a great two-way 1C is valued so highly these days, as opposed to the guy who puts up more points but can't backcheck to save his life.

I agree with your logic. I value Toews over a guy like, say, Mike Ribeiro who is known as an offense first player.

The difference is, this isn't Jonathan Toews versus Mike Ribeiro. This is Shea Weber versus Erik Karlsson.

Your evaluation of EK is fairly off based on your description above. He rarely scores flashy goals. He probably isn't the best PP QB in the game. He IS the best skating defenseman in the league, the best at transition, and I would argue one of if not the best at cutting off lanes and using his stick.

People cling to this notion that elite offensively must mean below average defensively. The more you watch Erik, the more you notice that this isn't true. The people voting for the Norris by and large aren't dumb, although I'm certain there are a few who are biased. Most have a good indication of who the best defender in a given year is.

 

[JFG]

Just make an Erik Karlsson award, give it to him every year no matter what and keep these Ottawa fans happy.

And Subban will be the runner up every damn year!

 

[Epsilon]

All the people whining about Weber realize he didn't have that great of a season this year right?

 

[Retire91]

I really don't understand awards based on most total points. I can look at the leauge leaders and see who scored the most. Would be nice to see the trophy's awarded for more unsung or well rounded players. Its disappointing that the award for the best defenseman is awarded for the best offense.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Agreed. We should also have Best offensive defender Olympics award and best defender Olympics award too.

And best offensive defender in WJC award and best defender in WJC award.

How the hell is Karlsson winning all these awards on different stages? Argh, he doesn't even play defense who are these guys watching? I DEMAND a list of all these incompetent voters because surely they do not know better than us hfboarders4lifez.

Just make an Erik Karlsson award, give it to him every year no matter what and keep these Ottawa fans happy.

So what you're basically describing is the Norris. Lol.

 

[gnarls barkley]

I agree with your logic. I value Toews over a guy like, say, Mike Ribeiro who is known as an offense first player.

The difference is, this isn't Jonathan Toews versus Mike Ribeiro. This is Shea Weber versus Erik Karlsson.

Your evaluation of EK is fairly off based on your description above. He rarely scores flashy goals. He probably isn't the best PP QB in the game. He IS the best skating defenseman in the league, the best at transition, and I would argue one of if not the best at cutting off lanes and using his stick.

People cling to this notion that elite offensively must mean below average defensively. The more you watch Erik, the more you notice that this isn't true. The people voting for the Norris by and large aren't dumb, although I'm certain there are a few who are biased. Most have a good indication of who the best defender in a given year is.

sure, and people also cling to the notion that elite defensively means below average offensively, because otherwise Doughty wouldn't be a distant 3rd (in the minds of HF) for virtue of "low point production".

Weber shouldn't be in the conversation this year anyways, but a lot of this talk is hyping up EK to make it seem like he's lightyears ahead of anyone else at his position. He's a great player like other Norris nominees & winners, he's not Jesus on Ice.

 

[haveandare]

If they're gonna add another trophy, I've always been in favor of a best comeback player award.

This offensive and defensive d man thing would get messy because the best defense is increasingly becoming good offense and consistent puck possession.

 

[gnarls barkley]

If they're gonna add another trophy, I've always been in favor of a best comeback player award.

This offensive and defensive d man thing would get messy because the best defense is increasingly becoming good offense and consistent puck possession.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Masterton_Memorial_Trophy

 

[HarrisonFord]

100% yes it is.

It's so much easier to vote for the best defenseman because offense is so much easier to measure. The writers who vote on it don't actually watch every game of the nominees. They watch the teams that they are assigned to write about, and then use basic and advanced stats, plus highlight reels to choose their Norris Trophy winners for them.

And advanced stats favours the offensive defensemen, and really is a poor indicator of defensemen value in general. For example, noted hot garbage Justin Schultz had the best Corsi on the Oilers last year. Ryan Ellis had better corsi than Shea Weber. Green had better Corsi than Alzner/Carlson. MAB led the Wild D in Corsi in 2008-2009 despite being a trainwreck in his own end, and Brett Lebda led the 2010-2011 Toronto Maple Leafs defense in Corsi despite being so bad defensively that he was once actually a -3 in a 9-3 Toronto win

 

[Karlsson2Turris*]

Arrogant much?

First of all, Karlsson has led the D in scoring for three times. Second of all, he won't be playing forever. Should we just get rid of the Art Ross too, since Crosby will win it 80% of the time if he is not injured?

[MOD]

3 out of the past 4 years, and one of the years he was injured

 

[SpezDispenser]

Karlsson is revolutionizing the position, and his Norris nomination is proof of it.

Bang. That's all that needs to be said.