Is Hasek really the best goaltender?

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

I find myself agreeing with a lot of this post. I can't really fault Hasek for not winning more championships because those Sabres teams had no business even being in the playoffs some years, let alone the finals. He was also instrumental in their gold medal win (not just against Canada either - he stole the entire tournament). Any of the goalies being compared to him played on Dynasty-type teams, or at least teams good enough to win multiple championships. He didn't have that until late in his career, arguably after many of his best years had already past. None of the others in contention won a bunch of cups on aweful teams either - I don't really think it can be held against Hasek alone.

What we can say, is that he led the league in SV % 6 times in 8 years, while Brodeur has NEVER led the league in SV % even once. That's not to pick on Marty, who has been an amazing goaltender for a long time, but to me Marty seems a lot like Messier - a great player on a great team who enjoyed a lot of success on a great team, and put up a lot of impressive numbers along the way. I wouldn't call him a compiler, since that implies he was just "along for the ride" so to speak (and neither Brodeur or Messier fall into that category, IMO), but I don't think he was ever the best. His numbers are from being consistant for a long time, but never really dominant.

Hasek is more like Lemieux (and IMO there's no goalie equiv for Gretzky), where he was amazingly dominant, but never got to fully enjoy his "full" career here, and only won a couple championships because some of the teams he was on rather sucked. But when he was on the top of his game, he was clearly amazing. Leading the league in SV % 6 times, winning 6 Vezinas, and 2 Harts are pretty gaudy, especially in an era where there are dozens of "elite" goalies instead of just 2 or 3.

You don't even really have to count all those. Simply, he has the best career SV% of all time. Full stop. And that's having played 735 NHL games (85% of which were after he turned 30, I believe). I'd love to feel confident laying down a homer vote for one of my favourite players of all time (Roy), but Hasek is clearly the best goalie I have ever seen tend goal. Granted, I only started watching hockey around 1982 (and clipping/comparing the hockey roster/stats section out of the back of the Saturday Daily News in Halifax the year the Habs lost to the Flames in the Cup final)... but still. Best I'VE seen.

 

[matnor]

I don't know why people complain about Hasek's longevity when he has played professional hockey for 30 years which has to be some sort of record for goalies. As soon as he became the starting goalie he was elite until he was 37 (and a couple of years after that) which is Roy's retirement age. I don't know much about his time in Czechoslovakia but he seems to have been an elite goalie back then as well.

As for Roy, his case is complicated. He has very good save percentage relative to his peers in the late eighties. However, that was a time when most goalies did not play the butterfly so the reason he dominated could be because he played a new style. When new goalies playing similar style came into the league he was still elite but not as dominant. On the other hand, maybe he should get credit for helping revolutionizing the goalie position.

 

[BraveCanadian]

As for Roy, his case is complicated. He has very good save percentage relative to his peers in the late eighties. However, that was a time when most goalies did not play the butterfly so the reason he dominated could be because he played a new style. When new goalies playing similar style came into the league he was still elite but not as dominant. On the other hand, maybe he should get credit for helping revolutionizing the goalie position.

The fact that the other goalies caught up to him by emulating his style should be even more credit toward Roy.

I think that Hasek actually peaked higher for a while compared to Roy but it is pretty hard to discount Roy's impact on the whole position. Not to mention his absolutely dominating playoff performances.

I didn't see Sawchuk and Plante so I can't speak on them much.. Brodeur in my opinion has benefited from his rock solid defense over much of his career and his team's style of play. I think he is a really good goaltender but I put him a notch below Hasek and Roy.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The fact that the other goalies caught up to him by emulating his style should be even more credit toward Roy.


I think that Hasek actually peaked higher for a while compared to Roy but it is pretty hard to discount Roy's impact on the whole position. Not to mention his absolutely dominating playoff performances.

I agree. Roy changed the position like no other goalie in history. Most historically important goalie since Plante, and possibly ever, in terms of his impact on the game. That should give him points if anything, not take them away.

IMO, much of the decrease in scoring from the 80s is directly related to 2 innovations by Roy - the perfection of the butterfly used by Hall, and the "innovative" use of equipment for purposes other than protection.

I didn't see Sawchuk and Plante so I can't speak on them much.. Brodeur in my opinion has benefited from his rock solid defense over much of his career and his team's style of play. I think he is a really good goaltender but I put him a notch below Hasek and Roy.

I agree that Brodeur is behind Hasek and Roy, but the "rock solid defense and team's style of play" argument is really old.

Since the lockout, Brodeur won 2 Vezinas and was a 4-time finalist. He did this with a defense worse than any that Roy ever played behind and one that was no worse than what Hasek had in Buffalo. The "rock solid defense" argument might have worked when Brodeur's best defensemen weren't Paul Martin and blind-in-one-eye Colin White.

Not to mention that the 80s Canadiens were probably the most defensive-minded team in the league, coached by the likes of Jacques Lemaire and Pat Burns who would later coach the dead-puck era Devils. And the 90s Sabres were definitely a defense-first team, though they didn't have the personnel of NJ or Montreal to be as good at it.

 

[Corey Pronman]

I agree. Roy changed the position like no other goalie in history. Most historically important goalie since Plante, and possibly ever, in terms of his impact on the game. That should give him points if anything, not take them away.

IMO, much of the decrease in scoring from the 80s is directly related to 2 innovations by Roy - the perfection of the butterfly used by Hall, and the "innovative" use of equipment for purposes other than protection.

I think that's two separate arguments though. Roy may be one of the most influential goalies but when we define best are we looking at just raw performance or external factors as well because if it's just raw performance it's hard to put anyone over Hasek. However goalies like Plante and Roy did really influence the game of hockey.

 

[revolverjgw]

I used to go back and forth between Roy and Hasek, leaning towards Roy... who'd I'd probably still prefer for a playoff run... but I have more appreciation for what Hasek did outside the NHL now. I read about scouts in the late 80's talking about Hasek as though he might have been the best goalie in the world. That means his incredible prime was also incredibly long, despite his late start in the NHL. I'd say he's the best ever.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I think that's two separate arguments though. Roy may be one of the most influential goalies but when we define best are we looking at just raw performance or external factors as well because if it's just raw performance it's hard to put anyone over Hasek. However goalies like Plante and Roy did really influence the game of hockey.

If you watched Roy, especially in 93 in my opinion.. it would be hard to put anyone over his raw performance as well.

In my opinion it is a tossup between Roy and Hasek among the modern goalies.

Like I said I didn't see Sawchuk and Plante etc. so I won't comment about them.

 

[Corey Pronman]

If you watched Roy, especially in 93 in my opinion.. it would be hard to put anyone over his raw performance as well.

In my opinion it is a tossup between Roy and Hasek among the modern goalies.

I did watch Roy, and he is a fantastic goalie, but over the life of their careers in terms of pure goalie performance as the gauge of success which is stopping the puck the most and of the highest quality shots (I don't consider "winning" a gauge of goalie success) Hasek was a notch above Roy and there is statistical evidence to support most of that.

Nothing taken away from Patrick who is a legend.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I did watch Roy, and he is a fantastic goalie, but over the life of their careers in terms of pure goalie performance as the gauge of success which is stopping the puck the most and of the highest quality shots (I don't consider "winning" a gauge of goalie success) Hasek was a notch above Roy and there is statistical evidence to support most of that.

Nothing taken away from Patrick who is a legend.

Someone correct me if I am wrong but I was under the impression that in the tail end of the 80s that Roy's save percentage etc was as separated from the pack as Hasek was later?

 

[Big Phil]

Come on, Phil, you know better.

First of all, vezinas in Plante's time were like the Jennings today. Throw them out. If you're looking at first team all-stars (which can be properly compared), Hasek has six and Plante three. And Hasek had a harder time of it, too. (more teams means flash in the pan goalies who wouldn't even be in the league if it was smaller, sometimes have a great season and steal the spotlight) And plante's not "right with" Hasek in the harts, either. Plante is among many who have won one. Hasek is the only who has won two.

Arguments for Plante are comprised of his incredible longevity, strong personal numbers in both the regular season and playoffs, and unparalleled team success.

[/QUOTE]

Right, lazy writing on my part. I mixed up Dryden's run of Vezinas/First team all-stars during the Habs dynasty of the 1970s with Plante's in the 1950s. He was not a first team all-star every year. The Hart he won in 1962 was still over some pretty spectacular company though, but it is not two in a row either and it was not as dominant as Hasek's seasons. So scratch that. I stand by the theories I have always mentioned that only Sawchuk and Parent can compare in their prime with Hasek.

What? Come on, Phil. Brodeur does not beat Roy statistically!

Hey I'm not promoting Brodeur ahead of Roy all-time or anything but the all-time wins record has long been Brodeur's now, the single season win record is his now and the all-time shutouts record is his now. Not to mention he's got 7 year end all-star selections over Roy's 6. In the regular season Brodeur is right there with Roy. It is of course the postseason that he is miles behind Roy and didn't play anywhere near the level Roy did. At 38 years old I don't think he will change that anymore either. It's kind of like mentioning how great Hall was in the regular season (probably better than Sawchuk or Plante) but he clearly loses out to both of them once the postseason hits.

 

[Corey Pronman]

Someone correct me if I am wrong but I was under the impression that in the tail end of the 80s that Roy's save percentage etc was as separated from the pack as Hasek was later?

It was around that kind of separation and that's why he is up there with Hasek, however goalies were awful in the 80's compared to how good goalies were in Hasek's era (which ironically is largely due to Roy's influence on the game).

 

[Big Phil]

Lemiuex had only 2 Cups, yet his dominance unquestionably lands him in the Big 4. I believe Hasek's dominance is close, and he dragged bad teams further into the playoffs than Lemiuex ever did. Hasek was the equivalent of a 120+ forward in the late 90s... how many more Harts would he have won if he were not a goalie? The fact he did win his Harts by some of the largest margins ever is more than enough to allow that maybe it was Hasek's teams keeping him from the Cup mores than Hasek himself. That has to be taken into the equation.

Like everyone else I respect Hasek's success and dominance. I wouldn't suggest at all though that he was robbed of any other Harts because he was a "goalie". He was too good for there to ever be that bias against him at the time. But we can examine it if we'd like. His first best chance was 1995. Loved his season that year but hard to knock Lindros off that pedestal for what he did that season. 1999? No way anyone else but Jagr wins that, sorry. 2001? Sakic was a clear cut Hart winner. That's it pretty much. There wasn't any other time he was close to the Hart.

Also keep in mind, while Hasek had success that can put him in the argument as best goalie of all time, I still wouldn't put him in the elite 4 in NHL history (Gretzky, Howe, Orr, Lemieux). Not only was Mario dominant in the regular season but the level of individual skill in those two Cup runs for Pittsburgh was something I am not sure we ever saw before or since. Hasek led his team's further in the playoffs, but he didn't win and when his team did (2002) he didn't set the world on fire, just solid goaltending. The other knock on the Hasek vs. Lemieux thing is that while Hasek's best 6 years are comparable to Lemieux's to an extent (this is his 6 Vezinas of course) the truth is he was never a 2nd team all-star other than that. He had 6 elite seasons but even when Lemieux wasn't winning one of his 6 Art Ross trophies he was still out of this world. Years like 1986, 1987, 1990, etc. Hasek doesn't have those "other" great years really outside of his best 6. That hurts him in the long run. Also I don't think a goalie regardless of who was ever dominant enough to be in the top 4 players of all-time

All the goalies just have some holes in their careers:
Sawchuk - mid career slump 12 years in between Cups
Roy - 10 years in between all-star selection
Hall - lacks postseason success compared to the other great goalies
Plante - Retired for 4 years in the middle of his career
Hasek - Started late, temporarily retired in 2002 after a Cup win
Brodeur - No Conn Smythe, good playoff goalie just not flat out legendary in the "fear or intimidation area"

You just don't find that kind of hole in Howe or Gretzky's career

 

[BraveCanadian]

It was around that kind of separation and that's why he is up there with Hasek, however goalies were awful in the 80's compared to how good goalies were in Hasek's era (which ironically is largely due to Roy's influence on the game).

So now Roy doesn't get credit for dominating enough to raise the bar for the whole league?

And then win two more cups later on after he did??

I mean I agree that Hasek peaked higher than anyone but it is really hard to make a case against Roy. Like I said for me they are a toss up.

4 cups where he was a very integral part of each and all those playoff wins... and his OT wins are freakish.. 3 Conn Smythes makes him pretty much impossible to write off in the NHL.

And now for the most important factor in any discussion about Patrick Roy:

He won the stanley cup with a defense that featured Patrice Breezeby.

 

[Big Phil]

So now Roy doesn't get credit for dominating enough to raise the bar for the whole league?

And then win two more cups later on after he did??

I mean I agree that Hasek peaked higher than anyone but it is really hard to make a case against Roy. Like I said for me they are a toss up.

4 cups where he was a very integral part of each and all those playoff wins... and his OT wins are freakish.. 3 Conn Smythes makes him pretty much impossible to write off in the NHL.

And now for the most important factor in any discussion about Patrick Roy:

He won the stanley cup with a defense that featured Patrice Breezeby.

Right. We can't lose sight of the fact of how important it is for a goalie to win Cups and more importantly 3 Conn Smythes. That is more than anyone in NHL history and to be honest I'm not sure if we will witness that record being broken in our lifetime. If Gretzky didn't do it..........

Yeah you can't underestimate how harshly a goalie is judged when it comes to the postseason. This is why Curtis Joseph probably won't get in the HHOF. This is why Roy or Sawchuk or even Plante are often considered #1. Ignore how irrelevant Antti Niemi was to the Hawks win this year (oh come on, I'm lying?) and focus on the importance of Fuhr to the Oilers, Smith to the Isles, Parent to the Flyers and Roy to the Avs and Habs. I love Hasek's Harts and Vezinas but the honest truth of the matter is that there is a real debate when it comes to which is more valuable, 3 Conn Smythes and 4 Cups, or 6 Vezinas. Think about it.

 

[Dissonance]

Someone correct me if I am wrong but I was under the impression that in the tail end of the 80s that Roy's save percentage etc was as separated from the pack as Hasek was later?

More or less. During Roy's seven-year regular-season peak, 1985-1992 (when he won all his Vezinas), his save percentage was eleven points better than his nearest competitors—Jon Casey and Ron Hextall. (I'm limiting to goalies who played at least 200 games in order to weed out goalies like Belfour and Joseph who came in at the tail end of that period.)

Link.

By comparison, during Hasek's seven peak years, 1993-2000, he was fourteen points better than his nearest competitor—as it happens, Patrick Roy.

Link.

I was a little surprised by that. I've always put Hasek up near the Big Four, and would probably rank him as the best goalie of all time, but Roy basically had a comparable stretch of near-Hasek-like regular-season dominance, plus another eight years when he was second in save percentage, behind only Hasek. (And yeah, this isn't the whole story, and there are all sorts of arguments about SV%, but it's still a fairly useful stat for evaluating goalies…)

Edit: Oops, fixed some of the numbers.

 

[jkrx]

Right. We can't lose sight of the fact of how important it is for a goalie to win Cups and more importantly 3 Conn Smythes. That is more than anyone in NHL history and to be honest I'm not sure if we will witness that record being broken in our lifetime. If Gretzky didn't do it..........

Yeah you can't underestimate how harshly a goalie is judged when it comes to the postseason. This is why Curtis Joseph probably won't get in the HHOF. This is why Roy or Sawchuk or even Plante are often considered #1. Ignore how irrelevant Antti Niemi was to the Hawks win this year (oh come on, I'm lying?) and focus on the importance of Fuhr to the Oilers, Smith to the Isles, Parent to the Flyers and Roy to the Avs and Habs. I love Hasek's Harts and Vezinas but the honest truth of the matter is that there is a real debate when it comes to which is more valuable, 3 Conn Smythes and 4 Cups, or 6 Vezinas. Think about it.

In this case 6 vezinas as they are not only 6 vezinas but also 2 harts and a cup, olympic gold. Compare Haseks stats on losing teams to Roys instead. You will find that Hasek is superiour.

Was Roy really that dominent or would Hasek have won on those habs and avs teams? Think about it.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

In this case 6 vezinas as they are not only 6 vezinas but also 2 harts and a cup, olympic gold. Compare Haseks stats on losing teams to Roys instead. You will find that Hasek is superiour.

Was Roy really that dominent or would Hasek have won on those habs and avs teams? Think about it.

Roy is bringing some Vezina's to the table too. Not sure about Roys Hart record but I imagine it was mediocre at best.

 

[BraveCanadian]

In this case 6 vezinas as they are not only 6 vezinas but also 2 harts and a cup, olympic gold. Compare Haseks stats on losing teams to Roys instead. You will find that Hasek is superiour.

Was Roy really that dominent or would Hasek have won on those habs and avs teams? Think about it.

Roy didn't play on losing teams because he helped make and keep them winners. I don't think he was ever on a losing team.

Also the Olympic gold is a farce. Full marks to Hasek for being out of this world at the right time but in single elimination tournaments you get all kinds of crazy results. They don't call it the Miracle on Ice for nothing.

Roy only had one chance and ran into Hasek at his peak and playing like possibly no goalie ever has before.

I give full marks to Hasek getting Buffalo to the finals though but he wasn't able to seal the deal like Patrick in 93 with what was also a mediocre team for a cup winner.

 

[BraveCanadian]

More or less. During Roy's seven-year regular-season peak, 1985-1992 (when he won all his Vezinas), his save percentage was eleven points better than his nearest competitors—Jon Casey and Ron Hextall. (I'm limiting to goalies who played at least 200 games in order to weed out goalies like Belfour and Joseph who came in at the tail end of that period.)

By comparison, during Hasek's seven peak years, 1993-2000, he was fourteen points better than his nearest competitor—as it happens, Patrick Roy.

I was a little surprised by that. I've always put Hasek up near the Big Four, and would probably rank him as the best goalie of all time, but Roy basically had a comparable stretch of near-Hasek-like regular-season dominance, plus another eight years when he was second in save percentage, behind only Hasek. (And yeah, this isn't the whole story, and there are all sorts of arguments about SV%, but it's still a fairly useful stat for evaluating goalies…)

Edit: Oops, fixed some of the numbers.

What I find a bit interesting too is that Roy faced more shots and made more saves than the other top players in both of your linked time periods. Although Hasek would have if he played the extra games.

Brodeur had an easy ride those years in the second comparison. He played 20 more games and faced 1200 less shots..

All in all Roy sure had a heck of a run for a long time.

I'm going to have to stick with my peak Hasek, career or playoffs: Roy.

 

[canucks4ever]

Glenn Hall had a better regular season career, roy has the better playoff career. So no, Hasek isn't the bobby orr of goalies.

 

[Dissonance]

Not sure about Roys Hart record but I imagine it was mediocre at best.

He was runner-up to Messier in '92 and a finalist in 2002. Also had a fourth and fifth place finish somewhere along the line according to Hockey Outsider's Hart shares chart. That's not too shabby at all.

 

[Canadiens1958]

How the Comparison is Made

More or less. During Roy's seven-year regular-season peak, 1985-1992 (when he won all his Vezinas), his save percentage was eleven points better than his nearest competitors—Jon Casey and Ron Hextall. (I'm limiting to goalies who played at least 200 games in order to weed out goalies like Belfour and Joseph who came in at the tail end of that period.)

Link.

By comparison, during Hasek's seven peak years, 1993-2000, he was fourteen points better than his nearest competitor—as it happens, Patrick Roy.

Link.

I was a little surprised by that. I've always put Hasek up near the Big Four, and would probably rank him as the best goalie of all time, but Roy basically had a comparable stretch of near-Hasek-like regular-season dominance, plus another eight years when he was second in save percentage, behind only Hasek. (And yeah, this isn't the whole story, and there are all sorts of arguments about SV%, but it's still a fairly useful stat for evaluating goalies…)

Edit: Oops, fixed some of the numbers.

Depending on how the comparison is made the difference is paper thin and extremely debatable. Prime vs prime.

Roy Prime
Roy .902 vs Casey . 891 difference is .011 or 11/891 = ~.0123 better

Hasek Prime
Hasek .929 vs Roy .915 difference is .014 or 14/915 = ~.0153 better

What is very interesting is that post prime Roy was a better goalie by 13/902 = ~.0144 better.

The question is why. The answer is rather straightforward. Hasek prime was during an era when the NHL featured a greater perimeter game with much higher SV% numbers

Evidence = look no further than this years playoffs. The equipment did not change from series to series or game to game yet the performance of goalies SV% varied enormously. Halak looked great against teams that played on the perimeter and average when the teams crashed the crease or the slot. Leighton looked great against the Canadiens when they played on the perimeter but like a minor league call-up the one game they played in the slot or against Chicago who regularly crashed the crease or the slot The goalies that had SV% in the .930 range against a perimeter game saw their numbers drop significantly to the .875 -.890 range.

Hasek's prime numbers must be taken in context of the era, a period where the perimeter offense entered the NHL.

 

[jkrx]

Roy didn't play on losing teams because he helped make and keep them winners. I don't think he was ever on a losing team.

Also the Olympic gold is a farce. Full marks to Hasek for being out of this world at the right time but in single elimination tournaments you get all kinds of crazy results. They don't call it the Miracle on Ice for nothing.

Roy only had one chance and ran into Hasek at his peak and playing like possibly no goalie ever has before.

I give full marks to Hasek getting Buffalo to the finals though but he wasn't able to seal the deal like Patrick in 93 with what was also a mediocre team for a cup winner.

The 93 habs were not mediocre. Not the best I give you that but not as bad as Sabres with Woolley and Dixon Ward as their best offensive weapons. Satan missed half the playoffs in 99 and I believe he pretty much missed most of the playoffs before that too.

Roy never played for a losing or mediocre team because he refused to. He demanded a trade out of habs (shockingly to another cup contender). Hasek would have done just as good on those team Roy was on. Hell, as I said in another thread. Felix Potvin might have won a cup with the Avs if they didnt get Roy.

I admire Roy alot. I think he is easily a top3 goalie but he was not better than Hasek.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Hasek is without a doubt the best regular season goalie I've seen. His peak value is also significantly higher than any other goalie, hence more Vezina's. Parent and Dryden are the only other two in his league in terms of peak value.

But, and a big but, does that make Hasek the best I've seen? I think Brodeur and Roy were better compilers so to speak due to being great NHL goalies right from their early 20's, whereas for various reasons, Hasek took longer to establish himself. In addition, Hasek's playoff resume isnt' as good as Roy, Brodeur, Dryden, Parent, Smith and Fhur, other goalies I saw at their best.

So Hasek may be the best goalie I've seen, but due to a lesser playoff resume and not being a great goalie until his later 20's, it certainly is arguable.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

In his prime, there was no goalie ever as dominant as Hasek.

Has he been the most consistent goalie? Well of course not. Roy and Brodeur as well as a couple of others surpassed him on that.

But when it comes down to who was the best goalie at what he did and what he could do to a team, it's Hasek, easily imo.