Is Evgeny Malkin a generational talent?

[livewell68]

Too short a peak, and if he was better, it was a by a sliver, because Crosby has always been a 100+ point talent. Crosby has an immense PPG lead over 10 years and he's more complete, he's the better player. A generation is a marathon, not a sprint, and Ovechkin fell behind long ago. The miniscule lead he might have built up at one had is long gone. Generational players don't put up 65 points in a full season during their prime and they surely don't put up 5 years of of PPG play.



A no-brainer if that's good enough for your definition of generational, but it's not good enough for mine. Yeah Jagr did benefit from Lemieux's injuries, but he also proved he could be a dominant player over an ENTIRE generation, including over the threshold of a new era. I've always considered Jagr well above Lafleur for this reason when discussing top RWs despite Lafleur having a better run of hardware for a few years.

And before anybody goes there, yeah I know Orr didn't exactly prove he could dominate over the long term, which seems to contradict my emphasis on longevity, but I think we all know what he would have been capable of and he had nothing to prove there. I'm not worried about his lack of longevity.

Crosby missing more than 50% of this team's games over the span of 3 years should also be a hit against him. Also I seem to recall Ovechkin still winning a Hart and two Richard trophies over the last 3 years (years that are considered being below average for him).

Ovechkin is by far the best goalscorer of his generation and the gap between him and Stamkos and the rest of the league is quite significant. He's had a Bobby Hull like goalscoring gap over his peers.

3 Hart trophies, 5 1st Team All-Star selections, 1 Calder, 1 Hart, 3 Lindsay awards. No one in their right mind can dismiss these accomplishments as being deserving of a generational talent moniker.

What's better? A player who scores 37 Pts in 22 games or a player who puts up 85 Pts in 82 games? Also I seem to recall Crosby completing crapping the bed over the past 5 years in the playoffs. If Crosby is the only generational talent of this era then the league is by far at its worst point talent wise. Also Crosby's position as the best player in the world is built on a foundation of straws.

BTW, Crosby is not a better all-around player, he's been lazy and borderline poor defensively over the last 3 years (the timeframe where everyone seems to think he became the best in the world) and Ovechkin still scored twofold more goals than him in that time span not to mention he's got a clear edge in physicality. Crosby has just become a consistent Henrik Sedin.

 

[Voight]

^You said 3 Hart Trophies and then 1 Hart, just letting ya know lol.

 

[livewell68]

^You said 3 Hart Trophies and then 1 Hart, just letting ya know lol.

Me?

I was saying how over the last 3 years (a time in which people said Ovechkin has fallen off), he still won 1 Hart and 2 Richard trophies.

He's still easily the best goalscorer in the world and while he might not be the 100 Pts Ovechkin anymore, he hasn't fallen off enough to say that it washes away everything he accomplished in his first 6 years in this league. It's not like Crosby didn't get injured and didn't distance himself from the pack either.

PPG is a lovely stat to use but it also needs to be viewed with a bit of context as well.

Exhibit A, player plays 78 games, puts up 50 goals and 80 Pts. Exhibit B, player plays 22 games and puts up 37 Pts.

I'm going to take the Exhibit A player every time.

It's not like Crosby was putting up 120 + Pts and 85 + assists a season over the last 3 years either.

You cannot argue Crosby is a generational player without including Malkin and Ovechkin.

 

[Voight]

Me?

I was saying how over the last 3 years (a time in which people said Ovechkin has fallen off), he still won 1 Hart and 2 Richard trophies.

He's still easily the best goalscorer in the world and while he might not be the 100 Pts Ovechkin anymore, he hasn't fallen off enough to say that it washes away everything he accomplished in his first 6 years in this league. It's not like Crosby didn't get injured and didn't distance himself from the pack either.

PPG is a lovely stat to use but it also needs to be viewed with a bit of context as well.

Exhibit A, player plays 78 games, puts up 50 goals and 80 Pts. Exhibit B, player plays 22 games and puts up 37 Pts.

I'm going to take the Exhibit A player every time.

It's not like Crosby was putting up 120 + Pts and 85 + assists a season over the last 3 years either.

You cannot argue Crosby is a generational player without including Malkin and Ovechkin.

My bad, I misread what you said.

I strongly agree with your points tho.

 

[KareemTrustfund]

If Crosby is generational, than so is Malkin.

 

[penguins2946*]

TIL that putting up 51 points in 45 games in the playoffs is "crapping the bed". That's some great logic there. If that is considered "crapping the bed", what is it for Ovi, since he put up 31 points in 37 playoff games over the same time frame? What about Malkin, who had 49 points in 47 games? Is that "crapping the bed" too?

Putting up 65 points in a full season is a lot worse for a generation talent than missing 60 games in a full season. One of those is injuries, the other is poor play. But I'm not even surprised in the least you feel that way.

Fun stat, Crosby had more points in 41 games in 10-11 than Ovi had in a full season in 11-12.

 

[livewell68]

If Crosby is generational, than so is Malkin.

Bingo.

 

[livewell68]

TIL that putting up 51 points in 45 games in the playoffs is "crapping the bed". That's some great logic there. Putting up 65 points in a full season is a lot worse for a generation talent than missing 60 games in a full season. One of those is injuries, the other is poor play. But I'm not even surprised in the least you feel that way.

Fun stat, Crosby had more points in 41 games in 10-11 than Ovi had in a full season in 11-12.

That was the worst season of Ovechkin's career and he might never be that below average again until he hits his early 30's.

It doesn't take away from the fact that Ovechkin has scored more goals (about 160 more) and has won more individual awards.

Fun fact, when Crosby scored 15 goals in 2012-13, Ovechkin scored 32 goals.

 

[canadianguy77]

Crosby missing more than 50% of this team's games over the span of 3 years should also be a hit against him. Also I seem to recall Ovechkin still winning a Hart and two Richard trophies over the last 3 years (years that are considered being below average for him).

Ovechkin is by far the best goalscorer of his generation and the gap between him and Stamkos and the rest of the league is quite significant. He's had a Bobby Hull like goalscoring gap over his peers.

3 Hart trophies, 5 1st Team All-Star selections, 1 Calder, 1 Hart, 3 Lindsay awards. No one in their right mind can dismiss these accomplishments as being deserving of a generational talent moniker.

What's better? A player who scores 37 Pts in 22 games or a player who puts up 85 Pts in 82 games? Also I seem to recall Crosby completing crapping the bed over the past 5 years in the playoffs. If Crosby is the only generational talent of this era then the league is by far at its worst point talent wise. Also Crosby's position as the best player in the world is built on a foundation of straws.

BTW, Crosby is not a better all-around player, he's been lazy and borderline poor defensively over the last 3 years (the timeframe where everyone seems to think he became the best in the world) and Ovechkin still scored twofold more goals than him in that time span not to mention he's got a clear edge in physicality. Crosby has just become a consistent Henrik Sedin.

Your entire post is wrong and laughable. Ovechkin isn't generational, Crosby an Malkin are. Breathe it in, let it settle, and accept it.

 

[livewell68]

TIL that putting up 51 points in 45 games in the playoffs is "crapping the bed". That's some great logic there. If that is considered "crapping the bed", what is it for Ovi, since he put up 31 points in 37 playoff games over the same time frame? What about Malkin, who had 49 points in 47 games? Is that "crapping the bed" too?

Putting up 65 points in a full season is a lot worse for a generation talent than missing 60 games in a full season. One of those is injuries, the other is poor play. But I'm not even surprised in the least you feel that way.

Fun stat, Crosby had more points in 41 games in 10-11 than Ovi had in a full season in 11-12.

No, it calls for a more fair evaluation. If Crosby hasn't been that much better than either player if at all then how can he be the only generational player?

Did he win 5 Art Ross trophies? Did he win multiple Conn Smythe trophies? Did he win multiple Cups? Did he win 3 + Hart trophies? Did he outscore the next leading scoring of his generation by 100 + Pts?

Did he have more All-Star selections at his position than his peers?

Since when did we lower the standards for generational players?

Some to this day argue how Jagr was not the best of his generation because 1) He never led his team to a Cup 2) He never won any Conn Smythe trophies 3) He has only 1 Hart. I don't see why it's ok to have these double standards.

It's plain and simple, Jagr, Ovechkin and Malkin are not as marketable and they are not good ol' Canadian boys and they were pegged as the faces of the NHL, although all 3 of them due to their play became the faces of the NHL.

That is the only reason that so many fans try to argue that Crosby was the best of his generation. In reality on paper, he never did enough to distance himself from the pack and certainly not from Ovechkin or Malkin.

 

[penguins2946*]

No, it calls for a more fair evaluation. If Crosby hasn't been that much better than either player if at all then how can he be the only generational player?

No, that wasn't my question. If 51 points in 46 games is considered crapping the bed, then it has to be considered crapping the bed with the other 2. The only reason you don't realize this is that you have some kind of weird burning hatred towards Sid and you feel like it's your duty to say why Jagr is better than him.

And for the record, I consider all of Ovi, Crosby and Malkin generation talents. If 1 of them is, they all are. Your post is just whining about how unfairly Malkin, Ovechkin and Jagr are treated because they're not from North America. While that is completely stupid first of all, it's also entirely false. Why did Ovi win the 2013 Hart if he would be treated so unfairly? Your post is just more xenophobic BS. And yes, it works the other way too.

 

[livewell68]

Your entire post is wrong and laughable. Ovechkin isn't generational, Crosby an Malkin are. Breathe it in, let it settle, and accept it.

This is by far the most disrespectful and dumbest response anyone can give. How about you try and sit there and give me concrete reasons as to why Ovechkin is not generational rather than come up with this childish response?

Ovechkin has 3 Hart trophies, 1 Art Ross, 3 Pearson Lindsays, 5 Rocket Richard trophies, 5 1st Team All-Star selections (among LW's only Bobby Hull and Ted Lindsay had more selections), 5 top 3 scoring finishes, 7 overall top 10 finishes.

If that is not generational then neither is Crosby or Malkin.

How many players in NHL history have led the league in goals more times than Ovechkin has? I'm sure there about a dozen players that have won 2 or more Art Ross trophies though.

This might help:

Most times leading the NHL in goals:

1. Bobby Hull* 7
2. Phil Esposito* 6
3. Wayne Gretzky* 5
Gordie Howe* 5
Maurice Richard* 5
Charlie Conacher* 5
7. Alex Ovechkin 4
8. Brett Hull* 3
Pavel Bure* 3
Mario Lemieux* 3
Bill Cook* 3
Babe Dye* 3
Teemu Selanne 3

Since then Ovechkin has moved up. BTW If Ovechkin leads the NHL in goals again this season, he will have tied Esposito for the 2nd most times in NHL history.

That list BTW is from http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1789465&highlight=ovechkin

 

[livewell68]

No, that wasn't my question. If 51 points in 46 games is considered crapping the bed, then it has to be considered crapping the bed with the other 2. The only reason you don't realize this is that you have some kind of weird burning hatred towards Sid and you feel like it's your duty to say why Jagr is better than him.

And for the record, I consider all of Ovi, Crosby and Malkin generation talents. If 1 of them is, they all are. Your post is just whining about how unfairly Malkin, Ovechkin and Jagr are treated because they're not from North America. While that is completely stupid first of all, it's also entirely false. Why did Ovi win the 2013 Hart if he would be treated so unfairly? Your post is just more xenophobic BS. And yes, it works the other way too.

I'm Canadian, I'm not even European.

Ovechkin won the Hart in 2013 because he was the most valuable to his team and no one was more deserving that season and that includes Mr. Can Do No Wrong Crosby too. I think the Penguins still being a good team with Crosby out of the lineup hurt his chances of winning the Hart.

The Penguins can still make the playoffs with Crosby hurt for a significant period of time or Malkin or both at the same time as was the case in 2010-11, while Ovechkin is the sole reason why the Capitals made the playoffs in 2007-08, 2008-09 and 2012-13. That's why he's got 3 Hart trophies.

 

[daver]

Peak Malkin is better than peak Jagr. Just wanted to throw that out there.

Once you adjust for the extra TOI and PP time Jagr had in the DPE (along with all the other top forwards from the DPE), you can make a case for Malkin, OV,and Crosby having as good as or better peak.

 

[livewell68]

Once you adjust for the extra TOI and PP time Jagr had in the DPE (along with all the other top forwards from the DPE), you can make a case for Malkin, OV,and Crosby having as good as or better peak.

Says the same poster who laughed at adjusting because it made Jagr look better.

I will link it again,

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/j/jagrja01.html

Jagr has 145, 144, 131 which are all better than Crosby's, Malkin's and Ovechkin's best adjusted seasons.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/points_adjusted_season.html

ank Player PTS/A Season
1. Howie Morenz* 190 1927-28
2. Wayne Gretzky* 170 1985-86
3. Cooney Weiland* 168 1929-30
4. Wayne Gretzky* 166 1984-85
5. Mario Lemieux* 165 1988-89
6. Wayne Gretzky* 163 1983-84
7. Frank Boucher* 160 1929-30
8. Wayne Gretzky* 159 1982-83
9. Mario Lemieux* 156 1995-96
Wayne Gretzky* 156 1981-82
11. Wayne Gretzky* 155 1986-87
12. Wayne Gretzky* 146 1990-91
13. Bill Cook* 145 1929-30
Frank Boucher* 145 1928-29
Jaromir Jagr 145 1998-99
Dick Irvin* 145 1926-27
17. Jaromir Jagr 144 1995-96
18. Andy Blair 143 1928-29
19. Phil Esposito* 141 1970-71
Mario Lemieux* 141 1987-88
21. Howie Morenz* 139 1930-31
Wayne Gretzky* 139 1988-89
23. Phil Esposito* 138 1973-74
24. Cy Denneny* 135 1925-26
25. Joe Primeau* 134 1930-31
26. Ebbie Goodfellow* 133 1930-31
Phil Esposito* 133 1971-72
28. George Hay* 132 1927-28
29. Ace Bailey* 131 1928-29
Jaromir Jagr 131 2000-01
Dit Clapper* 131 1929-30
Aurele Joliat* 131 1927-28
Gordie Howe* 131 1952-53
34. Dutch Gainor 130 1929-30
35. Hec Kilrea 129 1929-30
Bobby Orr* 129 1970-71
Mario Lemieux* 129 1992-93
38. Joe Primeau* 128 1931-32
Steve Yzerman* 128 1988-89
Joe Sakic* 128 2000-01
41. Wayne Gretzky* 127 1980-81
Mario Lemieux* 127 1996-97
Frank Boucher* 127 1927-28
44. Phil Esposito* 125 1968-69
45. Bernie Nicholls 124 1988-89
Bobby Orr* 124 1969-70
Wayne Gretzky* 124 1987-88
48. Frank Nighbor* 123 1925-26
Bun Cook* 123 1927-28
Cy Denneny* 123 1924-25
51. Frank Boucher* 122 1930-31
Teemu Selanne 122 1998-99
Guy Lafleur* 122 1976-77
Sidney Crosby 122 2006-07
Evgeni Malkin 122 2011-12
Alex Ovechkin 122 2007-08
57. Jaromir Jagr 121 1994-95
Nels Stewart* 121 1925-26
Eric Lindros 121 1994-95
Joe Thornton 121 2005-06
Phil Esposito* 121 1972-73
62. Wayne Gretzky* 120 1989-90
Jaromir Jagr 120 2005-06
64. Jean Beliveau* 119 1955-56
Guy Lafleur* 119 1977-78
Henrik Sedin 119 2009-10
Wayne Gretzky* 119 1993-94
Pat LaFontaine* 119 1992-93
Busher Jackson* 119 1931-32
70. Brett Hull* 118 1990-91
Gordie Howe* 118 1950-51
Peter Forsberg* 118 2002-03
Howie Morenz* 118 1928-29
74. Wayne Gretzky* 117 1979-80
Alex Ovechkin 117 2009-10
Sidney Crosby 117 2009-10
Bobby Orr* 117 1971-72
Evgeni Malkin 117 2008-09
Bobby Orr* 117 1973-74
Frank Boucher* 117 1926-27
Bobby Orr* 117 1974-75
Markus Naslund 117 2002-03
Jaromir Jagr 117 1997-98
84. Mario Lemieux* 116 1991-92
Normie Himes 116 1929-30
Sidney Crosby 116 2013-14
Marcel Dionne* 116 1979-80
88. Evgeni Malkin 115 2007-08
Joe Thornton 115 2006-07
Joe Sakic* 115 1995-96
Ron Francis* 115 1995-96
Paul Kariya 115 1998-99
Nels Stewart* 115 1929-30
Adam Oates* 115 1992-93
95. Gordie Howe* 114 1953-54
Martin St. Louis 114 2012-13
Alex Ovechkin 114 2008-09
Ace Bailey* 114 1930-31
99. Joe Thornton 113 2002-03
Nels Stewart* 113 1928-29
Alex Zhamnov 113 1994-95
Carson Cooper 113 1928-29
Bryan Trottier* 113 1978-79
Teemu Selanne 113 1996-97
Daniel Sedin 113 2010-11
106. Gordie Howe* 112 1956-57
Howie Morenz* 112 1931-32
Hooley Smith* 112 1931-32
Peter Forsberg* 112 1995-96
110. Joe Lamb 111 1929-30
Vincent Lecavalier 111 2006-07
Bryan Trottier* 111 1977-78
Dickie Moore* 111 1958-59
Frank Fredrickson* 111 1926-27
Steve Yzerman* 111 1992-93
116. Phil Esposito* 110 1974-75
Milan Hejduk 110 2002-03
Jarome Iginla 110 2001-02
Peter Forsberg* 110 1998-99
Denis Savard* 110 1987-88
Newsy Lalonde* 110 1918-19
Eric Lindros 110 1995-96
Marcel Dionne* 110 1978-79
Mario Lemieux* 110 1985-86
125. Jean Ratelle* 109 1971-72
Sergei Fedorov 109 1993-94
Kevin Stevens 109 1991-92
Steven Stamkos 109 2011-12
Red Green 109 1924-25
Joe Sakic* 109 1998-99
Martin St. Louis 109 2003-04
Guy Lafleur* 109 1978-79
Marcel Dionne* 109 1976-77
134. Paul Coffey* 108 1985-86
Mike Bossy* 108 1981-82
Wayne Gretzky* 108 1991-92
Steven Stamkos 108 2012-13
Aurele Joliat* 108 1924-25
Alexei Yashin 108 1998-99
Jari Kurri* 108 1984-85
Mark Messier* 108 1989-90
Guy Lafleur* 108 1975-76
Todd Bertuzzi 108 2002-03
144. Joe Sakic* 107 1994-95
Alex Ovechkin 107 2012-13
Dany Heatley 107 2006-07
Ted Lindsay* 107 1956-57
Teemu Selanne 107 1992-93
Ted Lindsay* 107 1949-50
Roy Conacher* 107 1948-49
Nicklas Backstrom 107 2009-10
Ace Bailey* 107 1926-27
Babe Dye* 107 1924-25
Martin St. Louis 107 2010-11
Jarome Iginla 107 2007-08
Art Gagne 107 1927-28
157. Guy Lafleur* 106 1979-80
John Bucyk* 106 1970-71
Mike Bossy* 106 1978-79
Sidney Crosby 106 2012-13
Vic Hadfield 106 1971-72
Sidney Crosby 106 2008-09
Gordie Howe* 106 1955-56
Eric Lindros 106 1998-99
Steve Yzerman* 106 1989-90
Corey Perry 106 2010-11
Jean Beliveau* 106 1956-57
Stan Mikita* 106 1966-67
Pierre Turgeon 106 1992-93
170. Pavel Datsyuk 105 2007-08
Patrick Kane 105 2012-13
Peter Forsberg* 105 1997-98
Theoren Fleury 105 1998-99
Jaromir Jagr 105 1999-00
Doug Bentley* 105 1948-49
Gordie Howe* 105 1951-52
Bobby Hull* 105 1968-69
Marcel Dionne* 105 1974-75
Charlie Conacher* 105 1930-31
Jean Beliveau* 105 1958-59
Aurele Joliat* 105 1930-31
Darryl Sittler* 105 1977-78
183. Bobby Clarke* 104 1975-76
Patrik Elias 104 2000-01
Pavol Demitra 104 2002-03
Marcel Dionne* 104 1980-81
Bill Cook* 104 1932-33
Howie Morenz* 104 1924-25
Stan Mikita* 104 1963-64
Martin St. Louis 104 2006-07
Alex Ovechkin 104 2005-06
Paul Kariya 104 1995-96
Pavel Bure* 104 1997-98
Charlie Conacher* 104 1933-34
Joe Thornton 104 2007-08
196. Bill Cowley* 103 1940-41
Bill Cook* 103 1930-31
Markus Naslund 103 2001-02
Dale Hawerchuk* 103 1984-85
Joe Primeau* 103 1933-34
Glen Murray 103 2002-03
Alex Kovalev 103 2000-01
Alexander Mogilny 103 1995-96
Teemu Selanne 103 1995-96
Paul Kariya 103 1996-97
Ace Bailey* 103 1929-30
Wayne Gretzky* 103 1997-98
Bobby Hull* 103 1965-66
Claude Giroux 103 2011-12
Pavel Bure* 103 1999-00
Alexander Mogilny 103 1992-93
Mario Lemieux* 103 1989-90
Guy Lafleur* 103 1974-75
214. Bernie Geoffrion* 102 1954-55
Marian Hossa 102 2006-07
Tyler Seguin 102 2014-15
Ron Francis* 102 1994-95
Andy Bathgate* 102 1958-59
Peter Stastny* 102 1981-82
Elmer Lach* 102 1944-45
Steven Stamkos 102 2009-10
Bernie Geoffrion* 102 1960-61
Joe Sakic* 102 2006-07
Charlie Conacher* 102 1934-35
Adam Oates* 102 1990-91
Martin Straka 102 2000-01
Jason Allison 102 2000-01
Adam Oates* 102 1993-94
Mario Lemieux* 102 2002-03
Pete Mahovlich 102 1974-75
Nels Stewart* 102 1927-28
Sergei Fedorov 102 1995-96
Jari Kurri* 102 1985-86
Doug Gilmour* 102 1992-93
John LeClair 102 1998-99
236. Luc Robitaille* 101 1992-93
Daniel Alfredsson 101 2005-06
Bobby Hull* 101 1963-64
Gerry Lowrey 101 1928-29
Eric Staal 101 2012-13
Wayne Gretzky* 101 1996-97
John LeClair 101 1996-97
Gordie Howe* 101 1968-69
Henrik Sedin 101 2010-11
Phil Esposito* 101 1969-70
Dany Heatley 101 2005-06
Marcel Dionne* 101 1984-85
Joe Sakic* 101 2003-04
Ilya Kovalchuk 101 2003-04
Kent Nilsson 101 1980-81
Dale Hawerchuk* 101 1987-88
King Clancy* 101 1929-30
Bobby Clarke* 101 1974-75
Mark Recchi 101 1990-91
Pavol Demitra 101 1998-99
Patrick Kane 101 2014-15

I don't see Ovechkin, Malkin or Crosby anywhere near the top, I do see Jagr show up 3 times though before either player shows up once.

Jagr has 5 seasons adjusted at 120 + Pts, Ovechkin, Malkin and Crosby have 1 each.

 

[daver]

Says the same poster who laughed at adjusting because it made Jagr look better.

Since NHL.com only shows TOI stats for 1998 onwards, those are the seasons that can be calculated adjusting for scoring levels and the different levels of TOI for the top forwards in the league.

For example, the top ten scoring forwards last year averaged 20:15 TOI and 3:45 on the PP.

In 1999, the top ten scoring forwards averaged 23.25 TOI and 5:10 on the PP.

Like all the other top forwards in the DPE, Jagr played more at ES and on the PP than Malkin and Crosby and the other top forwards do since the '05 lockout.

When you adjust the top seasons for Malkin (2012) and Crosby (2007) to Jagr's (1999), they adjust to 131 and 123. So peak play is lot closer than you think.

 

[Fantomas]

Says the same poster who laughed at adjusting because it made Jagr look better.

I will link it again,

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/j/jagrja01.html

Jagr has 145, 144, 131 which are all better than Crosby's, Malkin's and Ovechkin's best adjusted seasons.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/points_adjusted_season.html



I don't see Ovechkin, Malkin or Crosby anywhere near the top, I do see Jagr show up 3 times though before either player shows up once.

Jagr has 5 seasons adjusted at 120 + Pts, Ovechkin, Malkin and Crosby have 1 each.

Adjusted stats of course aren't perfect, but this is an interesting reference guide.

Jagr shows up 7 times. Ovechkin and Sid 5 times each.

Malkin 3 times.

 

[Fantomas]

Once you adjust for the extra TOI and PP time Jagr had in the DPE (along with all the other top forwards from the DPE), you can make a case for Malkin, OV,and Crosby having as good as or better peak.

Why should one adjust for TOI? I am not following this.

 

[Fantomas]

Adjusted stats don't think much of Maurice Richard.

 

[shazariahl]

No. I don't consider anybody but the best player of a generation to be generational. The kind of player that comes along once in a generation. Howe in the O6, Orr post expansion, Jagr in the deadpuck, Crosby in the post-lockout, with the Gretzky and Lemieux period being the one deviation from the rule, two extreme outliers that co-existed. Degree of dominance doesn't factor into my definition (it's way harder than ever to stand out in today's environment anyway), you just have to be the best player.

So Malkin and Ovechkin get lumped in guys like Beliveau, Lafleur, Messier, Forsberg, etc. As good as it gets without actually being that once-in-a-generation player.

What about Hasek? Some of the most dominating seasons we've seen from the goaltending position... well, ever.

 

[DyerMaker66*]

The term is getting watered down. Franchise player, IMO, is a guy who's going to be the best on your franchise. Generational talent means a guy who's the best in the NHL. Not just "one of the best." It's a term we can use to separate the Gretzkies, Lemieuxs, Orrs, Howes, and even Crosbies from the rest.

Once in a generation.

Pretty funny how all 5 of the players you mentioned played against (or with) at least one of the others.

 

[Tumty]

Me?

I was saying how over the last 3 years (a time in which people said Ovechkin has fallen off), he still won 1 Hart and 2 Richard trophies.

He's still easily the best goalscorer in the world and while he might not be the 100 Pts Ovechkin anymore, he hasn't fallen off enough to say that it washes away everything he accomplished in his first 6 years in this league. It's not like Crosby didn't get injured and didn't distance himself from the pack either.

PPG is a lovely stat to use but it also needs to be viewed with a bit of context as well.

Exhibit A, player plays 78 games, puts up 50 goals and 80 Pts. Exhibit B, player plays 22 games and puts up 37 Pts.

I'm going to take the Exhibit A player every time.

It's not like Crosby was putting up 120 + Pts and 85 + assists a season over the last 3 years either.

You cannot argue Crosby is a generational player without including Malkin and Ovechkin.

Lol. You arr out of your mind with those 20game stuff. Lets use whole career stats, then we see the difference overall.

Crosby : 598games 291g 534a 825pts 1.38 ppg

Ovie : 732games 454g 410a 864pts 1.18 ppg.

Almost same points,but crosby has 140games in hand.

 

[daver]

Why should one adjust for TOI? I am not following this.

The top forwards in the DPE averaged more icetime than today's top forwards. If one is adjusting point totals from the DPE to the post-05 lockout era, I think it's reasonable to assume today's top forwards would have gotten the extra TOI and PP time.

I have worked out that in general point totals for the top forwards from the DPE (1997/98 - 2004)* are about 7% higher than post lockout point totals based on higher ES time and PP time.

* This is as far back as NHL TOI stats go.

 

[madgoat33]

The fact that Crosby, OV, and Malkin were all drafted in a two-year span is ridiculous. No one even comes close to the impact that these three have made on the league since coming in.

Lol, 1 cup between the 3 of them, but yes, nobody has come close to having the same impact

 

[FRUSTRATEDPENFAN*]

Crosby is the only one that is and if he isn't then none of them are