Is Erik Karlsson in fact the best Swedish player still?

[authentic]

I can reminisce fondly about Karlsson for hours.

I think for Senators fans in particular, it's definitely bittersweet.

The peak for us wasn't actually the 2017 run, although that's when he was most successful during the most important part of the season, but rather the span of games right before the Matt Cooke injury back in 2013. There was a game against Carolina where someone had isolated video of his entire game, and it was remarkable.

I remember saying it was like having an extra player on the ice all the time, because he was fast and agile enough to join the rush and also to get back again in time to defend.

After the Cooke injury, he could never pivot quite the same way again, and he'd get beaten to the outside. It changed the way he played. He'd start skating back, and then he'd pause, and proceed with this very clumsy pivot to skating backwards where he'd lose a lot of his momentum and speed.

In some respects, it made him a little more conservative and cautious (which is hard to believe, I know), which may have helped his overall game by 2017, but I think that would have come with experience and age anyway.

Anyway, those days are long past, but I like to remember them because ultimately hockey is about entertainment and he was the most entertaining player to ever suit up for the Senators.

Yeah I recall him having that ability before the Cooke incident for sure. I would love to see that game against Carolina you mention.

 

[NyQuil]

Yeah I recall him having that ability before the Cooke incident for sure. I would love to see that game against Carolina you mention.

I was curious so I looked around and I did find it.

 

[AvroArrow]

He never was and still isn't the best Swedish hockey player.

Cannot ignore how dog shit he is defensively.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

He never was and still isn't the best Swedish hockey player.

Cannot ignore how dog shit he is defensively.

Agreed except anytime he played for Sweden where he was one of if not the best Swedish player, or all the times he won the Norris, or when he finished 4th in NHL scoring, or that year when he was 2nd in the league in blocked shots while going PPG, or when he put up a playoff performance that can only be rivalled by Peter Forsberg in Swedish player history, or in 2013 before he got injured when he was at his fastest, strongest and was clowing NHLers like it was a video game.

 

[AvroArrow]

Agreed except anytime he played for Sweden where he was one of if not the best Swedish player, or all the times he won the Norris, or when he finished 4th in NHL scoring, or that year when he was 2nd in the league in blocked shots while going PPG, or when he put up a playoff performance that can only be rivalled by Peter Forsberg in Swedish player history.

You did a great job at disputing my point about him being dog shit defensively, kudos

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

You did a great job at disputing my point about him being dog shit defensively, kudos

Why would I try to dispute defense with someone who doesn't understand it?

That's how people go crazy.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Sullivan's system encourages defenseman to make quick passes to forwards and let the forwards carry the puck. Karlsson is at his best when he's carrying the puck and skating around the ice, but Sullivan's system actively prevents him from doing that.

I agree that he isn't encouraged to be a multi-line carrier from the start - which is really hard at this level anyhow (and yes, he can do it). But you don't feel as if that's offset by the speed generated behind the puck after the first pass? The idea behind the quick up is to beat the first level or two of the forecheck, and then a player like Karlsson gets the advantage of having speed and vision advantages by the time he gets his next touch. Also, we're all about downhill puck touches...or, in other words, a near-constant pinch team. So defensemen retrieve a lot of pucks on the side wall or keep pucks alive and rotate out of the corner.

Naturally, he wasn't going to be permitted to do what he did on that unserious Sharks team from a couple years ago. So, if that's the bar, then no "system" will ever compare. But the Penguins feature a fair amount of offense-friendly advantages for d-men...less so now that the roster is where it's at.

 

[AvroArrow]

Why would I try to dispute defense with someone who doesn't understand it?

That's how people go crazy.

Erik Karlsson fan boy telling someone else they don't understand defense is absolute gold LOL

 

[Sun God Nika]

Yeah I recall him having that ability before the Cooke incident for sure. I would love to see that game against Carolina you mention.

lets just say next time Cooke gets a thread on HF I aint going to be classy on it....

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Erik Karlsson fan boy telling someone else they don't understand defense is absolute gold LOL

I mean NHL coaches, NHL all time greats, NHL GMs, NHL players are all on my side so I'm pretty confident at the very least I might know more than you.

 

[AvroArrow]

I mean NHL coaches, NHL all time greats, NHL GMs, NHL players are all on my side so I'm pretty confident at the very least I might know more than you.

You realize he's universally regarded as one of, if not the worst player at actually defending in this generation of hockey ?

Are you a Sens fan by any chance, because that would make a lot of sense.

 

[Mattb124]

Erik Karlsson fan boy telling someone else they don't understand defense is absolute gold LOL

Not at all, Karlsson is elite at aspects of defense. He also has some significant deficiencies. Anyone who thinks he dog shit at defense despite him being elite in aspects of defense doesn’t understand defense. It is more than just clearing the crease and blocking shots.

Edit: not sure if folks saw the metric of player top speeds from the Canada/Sweden games. 34 year old Karlsson’s fastest burst was faster than McDavid’s and a full mph+ faster than MacKinnon’s.

 

[AvroArrow]

Not at all, Karlsson is elite at aspects of defense. He also has some significant deficiencies. Anyone who thinks he dog shit at defense despite him being elite in aspects of defense doesn’t understand defense. It is more than just clearing the crease and blocking shots.

Edit: not sure if folks saw the metric of player top speeds from the Canada/Sweden games. 34 year old Karlsson’s fastest burst was faster than McDavid’s and a full mph+ faster than MacKinnon’s.

- Horrible positioning
- Weak on board battles/pucks
- Can't clear the front of the net
- Least physical player on the ice


What he does well

-Break out passes

For whatever reason, his fan club likes to say this makes him good defensively

Karlsson is Makar offensively but Jake Gardiner defensively

 

[Golden_Jet]

considering the high point of that success was a team with a negative goal differential both in the regular season and the playoffs going to a conference final I think it’s fair to question their star defenseman’s ability to prevent goals. A sublime talent in two phases of the game can still be a liability in the third

E: rather, I suppose it’s more fitting to question whether that success stemmed from proper coaching judgment and keying on that

If Sens scored in double OT, instead of Pens, Karlsson would of won the Conn Smyrna that year,

When Karlsson was on the ice at 5-on-5 in those playoffs, the Senators out scored their opponents 23-11. Those 23 goals for were three more than any other player in the playoffs, even though he didn't play in the final round.

All this while playing on one leg.

 

[ijuka]

- Horrible positioning
- Weak on board battles/pucks
- Can't clear the front of the net
- Least physical player on the ice


What he does well

-Break out passes

For whatever reason, his fan club likes to say this makes him good defensively

Karlsson is Makar offensively but Jake Gardiner defensively

Breakouts are like the most important aspect of defense, so yes, a player can be good defensively by only being good at breakout passes, assuming the player is good enough at them.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Not anymore, but he definitely was at least in my eyes.

 

[NyQuil]

- Horrible positioning
- Weak on board battles/pucks
- Can't clear the front of the net
- Least physical player on the ice


What he does well

-Break out passes

For whatever reason, his fan club likes to say this makes him good defensively

Karlsson is Makar offensively but Jake Gardiner defensively

He was also extremely good at takeaways.

Lidstrom didn't win puck battles by hammering guys into the boards, but by stealing the puck. In Karlsson's prime, he was one of the best at it.

For example, in 2011-2012, he had 67, which led all defencemen by 16.

1. Karlsson - 67
2. Weber - 51
3. Streit - 50
4. MacDonald - 50
5. Byfuglien - 49
6. Hamhuis - 48

It's not even close.

Are you a Sens fan by any chance, because that would make a lot of sense.

And you being a Leafs fan with your own take also makes a lot of sense.

 

[Fixed to Ruin]

 

[authentic]

- Horrible positioning
- Weak on board battles/pucks
- Can't clear the front of the net
- Least physical player on the ice


What he does well

-Break out passes

For whatever reason, his fan club likes to say this makes him good defensively

Karlsson is Makar offensively but Jake Gardiner defensively

Honestly Jake Gardiner wasn’t even as bad as people say, he was probably better defensively than Karlsson is at this point. Karlsson before 2017 and especially 2012 wasn’t nearly that bad, and still had an even goal differential at ES on the Sharks while they were -53 as a team in his 100 point season.

 

[Mattb124]

- Horrible positioning
- Weak on board battles/pucks
- Can't clear the front of the net
- Least physical player on the ice


What he does well

-Break out passes

For whatever reason, his fan club likes to say this makes him good defensively

Karlsson is Makar offensively but Jake Gardiner defensively

In order to break out the puck, you have to have the puck. He is 14th in the league in take-away’s for D - intercepting passes, breaking up plays, digging pucks out of scrums, and yes, winning board battles. He doesn’t out-muscle guys, but he is very good with his stick and has great anticipation.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

You realize he's universally regarded as one of, if not the worst player at actually defending in this generation of hockey ?

Are you a Sens fan by any chance, because that would make a lot of sense.

I think you realize that and the people who don't understand defense or hockey at a high level. Sure.

The funniest thing mentioning being a Sens fan is that they saw some of the best two way/defensive players in history in Alfredsson, Hossa, and Chara, literally two 100 point Selke caliber forwards and one of the best defensive shutdown players ever, Hall of famers all, and 90 percent of Sens fan will still tell you that Karlsson was a leg up in being a better hockey player.

And then there's Bobby Orr, Lidstrom, Potvin calling him one of the best ever but what do they known.

We should all take your word for it over their's huh?

 

[wetcoast]

I know this is inconvenient but the thread title is about right now....right?

Seems extremely clear that he isn't since no one is even attempting to make a case here.

 

[NyQuil]

I know this is inconvenient but the thread title is about right now....right?

Seems extremely clear that he isn't since no one is even attempting to make a case here.

Yes, until people tried to start re-inventing history.