Is Crosby/Ovechkin the best player rivalry in big 4 sports leagues in the 21st century?

[AvroArrow]

Wade has never been close to being the #2 player in the world. Stern gifted him a title because he hated Mark Cuban’s guts and then LeBron delivered him a couple more. Wade was a top ten or so player of his era but never in the same realm as many of the guys he played with and against.

Did you actually watch the NBA ? Lmao, Wade is widely regarded as the 3rd greatest shooting guard of all time, behind only Jordan and Kobe. Kobe was slightly declining when LBJ joined Miami, it was undisputed Lebron/Wade as the 1/2 in the NBA.

Curry wasn't Curry yet, Durant was extremely young and couldn't even ball handle properly at that point in his career (they exposed him in the finals). Who were the other top dogs in the NBA at that point ? Dirk/Duncan were way out of their prime, Melo was 1 dimensional.

Wade was a top 10 player since he entered the league and only went up from there.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

This is a made up requirement.

Everything when it comes to sports comparisons and analysis is completely made up. It's my personal point of view. Feel free to disagree if you like but I find it absurd to compare QBs or say they have a rivalry against each other when they never actually compete against each other and the teams consist of 53 players.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Did you actually watch the NBA ? Lmao, Wade is widely regarded as the 3rd greatest shooting guard of all time, behind only Jordan and Kobe. Kobe was slightly declining when LBJ joined Miami, it was undisputed Lebron/Wade as the 1/2 in the NBA.

Curry wasn't Curry yet, Durant was extremely young and couldn't even ball handle properly at that point in his career (they exposed him in the finals). Who were the other top dogs in the NBA at that point ? Dirk/Duncan were way out of their prime, Melo was 1 dimensional.

Wade was a top 10 player since he entered the league and only went up from there.

Dwight Howard was considered the second best player in the NBA at the time, not Wade.

 

[wintersej]

Everything when it comes to sports comparisons and analysis is completely made up. It's my personal point of view. Feel free to disagree if you like but I find it absurd to compare QBs or say they have a rivalry against each other when they never actually compete against each other and the teams consist of 53 players.

Sure, it just seems silly to me that the 15-20 seconds a game Ovi and Crosby are actually competing against each other means much. Maybe if they were both centers and were actually matching up it would have more meaning, but those few times Crosby rotates over to defend Ovi doesn’t hold that much weight to me.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

Sure, it just seems silly to me that the 15-20 seconds a game Ovi and Crosby are actually competing against each other means much. Maybe if they were both centers and were actually matching up it would have more meaning, but those few times Crosby rotates over to defend Ovi doesn’t hold that much weight to me.

I would not disagree with you there. Team sports have team rivalries. There are some occasional exceptions where players do matchup directly with each other like a WR/CB in football or some NBA players who do basically shadow each other on the court. The less players on a team in a sport the closer you get to individual rivalries, but to me true player to player rivalries to me only really exist in individual sports where success is entirely dependent on the 2 players against each other head to head. Tennis big 3 is definitely the best example of a player rivalry recently. And Alcaraz Sinner now. Further in the past there were of course a ton of epic boxing rivalries.

Again, I know many will disagree but that's just how I see it. An example of why is that in team sports the outcome depends on so many more things than just players who are competing directly against each other. A WR could dominate a CB shadowing him to the tune of 250 yards and his team still loses the game. In tennis, boxing, etc. the outcome is 100% dependent on the players against each other.

 

[AvroArrow]

Dwight Howard was considered the second best player in the NBA at the time, not Wade.

LOL, you forgot the sarcastic emoji right ?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

LOL, you forgot the sarcastic emoji right ?

The original #NBArank top 10: Where are they now?

LeBron James topped the original #NBArank list, as he did again this year, but there have been plenty of changes over the years. We chart the rises and falls of the best players 2011 had to offer.

www.espn.com

Oof, hate it when I'm right. Will accept an apology now or a rain check.

If you can't remember these things, there's no shame in just sitting out the conversation.

 

[Ratbath]

Did you actually watch the NBA ? Lmao, Wade is widely regarded as the 3rd greatest shooting guard of all time, behind only Jordan and Kobe. Kobe was slightly declining when LBJ joined Miami, it was undisputed Lebron/Wade as the 1/2 in the NBA.

Curry wasn't Curry yet, Durant was extremely young and couldn't even ball handle properly at that point in his career (they exposed him in the finals). Who were the other top dogs in the NBA at that point ? Dirk/Duncan were way out of their prime, Melo was 1 dimensional.

Wade was a top 10 player since he entered the league and only went up from there.

Anybody calling Wade a top 3 sg all time is an unserious person. You’re taking him over Iverson and Reggie miller? Gervin and Clyde? Yeah I don’t see it at all.

LeBron obviously was better. Apparently even a “way out of his prime” Dirk could beat LeBron and Wade with Jason Terry as his second best player so yes him obviously. Duncan unquestionably still better than Wade until his final season or two. Durant was already better in college than Wade ever became. Dwight definitely was more dominant for a while before he tapered off. Steve Nash put together a couple
MVP seasons while Wade was in his prime. Kevin Garnett existed as well. This is far from a comprehensive list.

 

[Signupnow]

Both played on superteams. Messi elevated his teammates. Cristiano made them worse. How is it hard to understand my point?


Muh referee is the reason Messi beat Cristiano the majority of times. CR7 fans (whom I believe are likely closeted) have the dumbest arguments entirely devoid of logic.


Somehow that didn't extend beyond the UCL though right since Cristiano was unable to beat the top La Liga teams often enough to secure even close to the amount of league titles and Spanish cups to Messi. It also didn't extend to international play since Cristiano has never in his entire career scored a single knockout WC goal LOL and he has played 5 World Cups. He has also scored 0 WC knockout assists in his entire life.

His Euro knockout record is also beyond horrendous. Most of his goals and assists took place in the groups and it took him 252 minutes of knockout time to to get any goal contribution. In his only international trophy he got injured ten minutes into the game and his team won without him.


It's in fact much easier to stat pad in Europe. Copa America is genlocked to South America where every nation plays football well. In Europe you're playing against teams like Andorra, Lichtenstein or Faroe Islands lmao. There are 20 countries in Europe with the population of under 5 million. Messi at an old age scored 5 goals against Estonia like two years ago. Impossible to do that in South America.

What is true however is that winning the EUROs is harder due to many more top competitors.

We are all entitled to our opinions. I also believe messi is better but my original post was about him being in a different tier as a footballer which is false imo even if you feel he's more well rounded because 10 ronaldinho vs 10 Messis for example plus goalies I believe ronaldinho would make a fool out of messi's team 100% he just got a lot more tools and skills (in his prime) but does that make him better in a team of individuals? No because being able to score like Messi and Ronaldo is a very valuable trait.

 

[AvroArrow]

The original #NBArank top 10: Where are they now?

LeBron James topped the original #NBArank list, as he did again this year, but there have been plenty of changes over the years. We chart the rises and falls of the best players 2011 had to offer.

www.espn.com

Oof, hate it when I'm right. Will accept an apology now or a rain check.

If you can't remember these things, there's no shame in just sitting out the conversation.

If you think Dwight at any point in his career was the 2nd best player in the NBA, just LOL

ESPN ? Checks out

 

[AvroArrow]

Anybody calling Wade a top 3 sg all time is an unserious person. You’re taking him over Iverson and Reggie miller? Gervin and Clyde? Yeah I don’t see it at all.

LeBron obviously was better. Apparently even a “way out of his prime” Dirk could beat LeBron and Wade with Jason Terry as his second best player so yes him obviously. Duncan unquestionably still better than Wade until his final season or two. Durant was already better in college than Wade ever became. Dwight definitely was more dominant for a while before he tapered off. Steve Nash put together a couple
MVP seasons while Wade was in his prime. Kevin Garnett existed as well. This is far from a comprehensive list.

EASILY, also Iverson plays the point.

IMO anyone arguing that D Wade isn't the 3rd best SG of all time behind Jordan/Kobe is unserious who probably watched very little basketball.

That Mavs team was a properly built team, it wasn't just Dirk. Tyson Chandler coming off the bench was massive, Jason Kidd was still a solid player. They were a complete unit, like the Billups/Wallace Pistons, it was a complete team.

KD was my favorite player at the time but that is just straight up false. He couldn't dribble, Miami full court pressed him and forced him to put the ball on the court every time, that's how they won the series. It was only after that finals he worked on his ball handling skills. KD in college was not better than prime D wade, stop it. Prime Durant, yes.

Steve Nash was great, but not close at that point. Dwight was good but played a totally different position, he was obviously going to get more blocks/rebounds cause of that.

KG was great as well, but he was entering a decline when Lebron joined Miami. It was that transition period, where stars like Kobe/Duncan/Nash/KG/Pierce/Tmac(injuries) etc were passing the torch to the next generation. We are talking 2010.

 

[Offtheboard412]

Anybody calling Wade a top 3 sg all time is an unserious person. You’re taking him over Iverson and Reggie miller? Gervin and Clyde? Yeah I don’t see it at all.

LeBron obviously was better. Apparently even a “way out of his prime” Dirk could beat LeBron and Wade with Jason Terry as his second best player so yes him obviously. Duncan unquestionably still better than Wade until his final season or two. Durant was already better in college than Wade ever became. Dwight definitely was more dominant for a while before he tapered off. Steve Nash put together a couple
MVP seasons while Wade was in his prime. Kevin Garnett existed as well. This is far from a comprehensive list.

Reggie Miller better than Wade? Lol absolutely ridiculous take. Iverson split time between both pg and sg, but played the pg more often. The other two you can at least make a (weak) argument for but Reggie Miller is nowhere near Wade. It's the type of claim an "unserious" person makes.

 

[SirKillalot]

– Ronaldo holds the record for most international goals, with 123 goals in 201 appearances, surpassing Ali Daei in September 2021.

This record means absolutely nothing. A solid bunch of those goals came against Andorra, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Faroe Islands and so on. The definition of stat padding when looking at the qualifier groups that Portugal has been in over the years. This is like playing teams on 3 division lower than you and claiming to be the king of all kings.

– Following his brace against Liechtenstein in a Euro qualifier, Ronaldo became the first-ever player to score 100 competitive international goals.

As mentioned Liechtenstein...
Here is the hype with Ronaldo. He will celebrate like a 5 year old Pejorative Slur with his celebration after tapping in a goal, when all the build up and assist etc. came for good to very good involvements and he'll claim all the glory.

Whoever believes he is in the same spectre as Messi has no business claiming they know anything about football / futbol / soccer.

Now it doesn't mean he isn't a good player because he is and he is a very good goal scorer. But there is a quite clear separation.
You know why he went to Saudi-Arabia?
1. Because of the money and that he is getting older, thus he didn't do so well in the Euro's.
2. Because he was so terrified of missing having the most goals of all time record, so he went there so he could still have a chance and statpad playing inferior teams and teams where players have said they got instructions to let Ronaldo score a goal every game...he was never been a true team player, only when it has a big chance of benefitting himself. Honestly its a bit sat that he hasn't grown up and celebrate like a 5 year old, but maybe has to do with his father being a bum and died when he was a young adult so he didn't have a male figure to keep him somewhat humble.


To the thread question, I think overall the Crosby/Ovechkin rivalry is the best one the last 20 years in NA. Maybe Curry/Lebron is the second, but idk not being American I don't have the feel that they were truly seen as head to head competitors because of how different they are as players. The fact that its a question if they are, it just cements that Jordan is the best of all time in basketball.

 

[Signupnow]

This record means absolutely nothing. A solid bunch of those goals came against Andorra, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Faroe Islands and so on. The definition of stat padding when looking at the qualifier groups that Portugal has been in over the years. This is like playing teams on 3 division lower than you and claiming to be the king of all kings.

As mentioned Liechtenstein...
Here is the hype with Ronaldo. He will celebrate like a 5 year old Pejorative Slur with his celebration after tapping in a goal, when all the build up and assist etc. came for good to very good involvements and he'll claim all the glory.

Whoever believes he is in the same spectre as Messi has no business claiming they know anything about football / futbol / soccer.

Now it doesn't mean he isn't a good player because he is and he is a very good goal scorer. But there is a quite clear separation.
You know why he went to Saudi-Arabia?
1. Because of the money and that he is getting older, thus he didn't do so well in the Euro's.
2. Because he was so terrified of missing having the most goals of all time record, so he went there so he could still have a chance and statpad playing inferior teams and teams where players have said they got instructions to let Ronaldo score a goal every game...he was never been a true team player, only when it has a big chance of benefitting himself. Honestly its a bit sat that he hasn't grown up and celebrate like a 5 year old, but maybe has to do with his father being a bum and died when he was a young adult so he didn't have a male figure to keep him somewhat humble.


To the thread question, I think overall the Crosby/Ovechkin rivalry is the best one the last 20 years in NA. Maybe Curry/Lebron is the second, but idk not being American I don't have the feel that they were truly seen as head to head competitors because of how different they are as players. The fact that its a question if they are, it just cements that Jordan is the best of all time in basketball.

Because Messi is in such a top tier league right now isnt he? Wasnt Zlatan 40 plus when he tore up MLS? Messi never dared to play for anything else than barcelona during his prime and his stint in PSG wasnt impressive and now he sit in USA where the soccer players could be compared to second tier league in laliga (And that is a huge stretch )

You think every nation in south america can play ball? Most south americans check out after they get their contract and then become fat and lazy. How was that game between germany and brazil? I couldnt really tell the score because the whole audiance was crying. not saying brazil is bad but look at chile . they had like 1 good forward which name i cant even remember but he was playing for barcelona. Waht about the other countries we couldnt even point out on the map. You got Argentina, and Brazil then you got teams like... Mexico and Uruguay lol.

And what do you think about his champions league records? i believe he hold most of them, the competition with the most prestique, in the knockout stage even. Yes even over world cup. Real Madrid, Man City,Barcelona, Byern, Arsenal, probably the top italian clubs as well would have decimated any of these teams. And since we bring history which isnt far back in this context. Juventus, Inter milan, Byern leverkusen, Liverpool, Atletico Madrid , the list goes on.

Barcelona on the other hand has always have had real nice group stage opponents usually. Those games that messi actually scores. you should look it up.

 

[SirKillalot]

Because Messi is in such a top tier league right now isnt he? Wasnt Zlatan 40 plus when he tore up MLS? Messi never dared to play for anything else than barcelona during his prime and his stint in PSG wasnt impressive and now he sit in USA where the soccer players could be compared to second tier league in laliga (And that is a huge stretch )

I'm not sure where you are from and such. But you are missing the points on mulitple options here.
"Never dared to play for another team" is a bull mentality. He was with one of the best teams in the world, he outperforms Ronaldo vs. English teams even if he never played in the Premier League which btw wasn't the best league just because marketing suggest so. Spanish teams won all the International tournaments for years. So why should he leave Barcelona just because of people who aren't even fans of his say so? If I had the opportunity to play the whole career with a Barcelona team that was mostly on top of things for a long time, its a given answer, I would too.

Messi went to US because of family, he would get money anywhere he went so that doesn't matter. He already completed football and could choose his family. Its that simple. He could go to Premier League now and still be the best or among the best players there without question.

People who say his stint in PSG wasn't impressive is people who believe football is just about the person scoring the goals. He had good overall numbers in France, was it close to his peak no, were they overall good, absolutely.

You think every nation in south america can play ball? Most south americans check out after they get their contract and then become fat and lazy.

Every team can play ball. That's why Ecuador and other teams you say are mediocre kept beating Portugal. Btw, Portugal also had a much better team over the years than they are given credit for. Since the times of Figo and Rui Costa they always had very good teams structure wise.
Some teams are not as good as others, they also have their ups and downs over time and generations as well, but overall most of them are pretty good teams.

How was that game between germany and brazil? I couldnt really tell the score because the whole audiance was crying. not saying brazil is bad but look at chile . they had like 1 good forward which name i cant even remember but he was playing for barcelona.

Not sure what you pointing out, every good team has bad games. Chile have had many good players over the years, just because you don't know them doesn't mean they haven't been good or haven't had good players. Right now, in this moment, they are not as good yes.
This player you don't remember also played in Inter and Man Utd.

Waht about the other countries we couldnt even point out on the map. You got Argentina, and Brazil then you got teams like... Mexico and Uruguay lol.

Just because you can't point out them, doesn't mean others can't. Its then you who need to get educated. Laughing at Uruguay, well Uruguay ended 4th in 2010 and in the quarter final in 2018, meaning among the top 8. As well as a history of 2 World Cup wins. They also won second most Copa America's of all time. 6 more wins than Brazil btw. Many other teams been good as well. Colombia where among the favourites to in 1994, then in 2014 they were in the Quarter Finals as well.

And what do you think about his champions league records? i believe he hold most of them, the competition with the most prestique, in the knockout stage even.

In the same time span they won 2 league titles and Barcelona 9. They did well in Champions League, but it wasn't because of Ronaldo dragging them, they had a quality midfielders and always had good goalies, the defence been a bit varied over the years. But, they had players who were serving good quality passes and crosses. If they had other quality strikers instead of those they had, like for example Crespo or van Nistelrooy during that time, they also would have scored those goals on those chances they got.

Yes even over world cup.

No, Champions League has not more prestige than the World Cup.

Real Madrid, Man City,Barcelona, Byern, Arsenal, probably the top italian clubs as well would have decimated any of these teams.

Beat what teams? National teams?

And since we bring history which isnt far back in this context. Juventus, Inter milan, Byern leverkusen, Liverpool, Atletico Madrid , the list goes on.

Idk what you listing bunch of teams for. Makes no sense.

Barcelona on the other hand has always have had real nice group stage opponents usually. Those games that messi actually scores. you should look it up.

Like all teams the groups were drawn by seedings. So all good teams, Real Madrid included had the better seedings usually and got easier opponents, just like Juventus, Man Utd, Man City, Inter, Bayern and so on. No news here.

 

[Signupnow]

I'm not sure where you are from and such. But you are missing the points on mulitple options here.
"Never dared to play for another team" is a bull mentality. He was with one of the best teams in the world, he outperforms Ronaldo vs. English teams even if he never played in the Premier League which btw wasn't the best league just because marketing suggest so. Spanish teams won all the International tournaments for years. So why should he leave Barcelona just because of people who aren't even fans of his say so? If I had the opportunity to play the whole career with a Barcelona team that was mostly on top of things for a long time, its a given answer, I would too.

Messi went to US because of family, he would get money anywhere he went so that doesn't matter. He already completed football and could choose his family. Its that simple. He could go to Premier League now and still be the best or among the best players there without question.

People who say his stint in PSG wasn't impressive is people who believe football is just about the person scoring the goals. He had good overall numbers in France, was it close to his peak no, were they overall good, absolutely.


Every team can play ball. That's why Ecuador and other teams you say are mediocre kept beating Portugal. Btw, Portugal also had a much better team over the years than they are given credit for. Since the times of Figo and Rui Costa they always had very good teams structure wise.
Some teams are not as good as others, they also have their ups and downs over time and generations as well, but overall most of them are pretty good teams.

Not sure what you pointing out, every good team has bad games. Chile have had many good players over the years, just because you don't know them doesn't mean they haven't been good or haven't had good players. Right now, in this moment, they are not as good yes.
This player you don't remember also played in Inter and Man Utd.

Just because you can't point out them, doesn't mean others can't. Its then you who need to get educated. Laughing at Uruguay, well Uruguay ended 4th in 2010 and in the quarter final in 2018, meaning among the top 8. As well as a history of 2 World Cup wins. They also won second most Copa America's of all time. 6 more wins than Brazil btw. Many other teams been good as well. Colombia where among the favourites to in 1994, then in 2014 they were in the Quarter Finals as well.

In the same time span they won 2 league titles and Barcelona 9. They did well in Champions League, but it wasn't because of Ronaldo dragging them, they had a quality midfielders and always had good goalies, the defence been a bit varied over the years. But, they had players who were serving good quality passes and crosses. If they had other quality strikers instead of those they had, like for example Crespo or van Nistelrooy during that time, they also would have scored those goals on those chances they got.

No, Champions League has not more prestige than the World Cup.

Beat what teams? National teams?

Idk what you listing bunch of teams for. Makes no sense.

Like all teams the groups were drawn by seedings. So all good teams, Real Madrid included had the better seedings usually and got easier opponents, just like Juventus, Man Utd, Man City, Inter, Bayern and so on. No news here.

I thought messis wife isnt from united states of america? but argentina.

Me pointing out these clubs is because its harder to win champions league than to win world cup. Barcelona and real madrid and Man city would make any national team look very very ordinary. why ? because they have the best players from each country on their pitch , there is no weak link. Hence its more prestigue to win CL than a world cup because the comptition is simply better.

It is true that Barcelona has won alot of laliga, Like my previous statement their playstyle is good for shitting on bad teams with relentless pressure from excellent passing against teams that dont know how to defend them well. Hence their poor record in CL. what they got ? 4 champions league in the history on the club? Real have to build a new stadium to accomodate their trophies. in which Ronaldo has won 1/3 of their total amount in the most sucessful club in the history. Not only him of course but modric too Kroos too Ramos but one cannot downplay ronaldo becuase he do have the most goals scored in a UCL campaign, He has most champions league trophies, He has most goals in history of UCL he has most goals in the knockout games in UCL and he is the only fotball player to score in 4 finals in UCL.

During the time when barcelona won a lot btw Madrid was not in their prime, Modric was considered the worst transfer in decades and was benched. Pepe was a nuthead and then average players like ozil and other players we managed to sell for a redicilous fee although they did look good becuase they passed the ball to ronaldo, who always is where he should be. but yet perhaps the only other notable player in portugal who is far inferior to what messi have had to work with in Argentina.

Now if you think winning a world cup is bigger its up to you , I mean its only played every 4 years i understand that but if you put Real Madrid after 2014 in that compeition i am pretty sure they would have a field day with any of these teams.

Real Madrid have never lost a final in its current format and it was 43 years ago they lost a final in an european competition, and they been in many.

 

[SirKillalot]

I thought messis wife isnt from united states of america? but argentina.

And? Because you are from a certain country you HAVE to move to your home country? No.
Had more to do with she followed him for 15 years+, now he compromised.

Me pointing out these clubs is because its harder to win champions league than to win world cup. Barcelona and real madrid and Man city would make any national team look very very ordinary. why ? because they have the best players from each country on their pitch , there is no weak link. Hence its more prestigue to win CL than a world cup because the comptition is simply better.

It's not harder to win CL than World Cup.
Yes, welcome to the club of those knowing that club teams would beat national teams because they play with each other year round. It's still not more prestige to win CL than WC and it never has been, where you have gotten that from no one knows.

It is true that Barcelona has won alot of laliga, Like my previous statement their playstyle is good for shitting on bad teams with relentless pressure from excellent passing against teams that dont know how to defend them well. Hence their poor record in CL. what they got ? 4 champions league in the history on the club? Real have to build a new stadium to accomodate their trophies. in which Ronaldo has won 1/3 of their total amount in the most sucessful club in the history. Not only him of course but modric too Kroos too Ramos but one cannot downplay ronaldo becuase he do have the most goals scored in a UCL campaign, He has most champions league trophies, He has most goals in history of UCL he has most goals in the knockout games in UCL and he is the only fotball player to score in 4 finals in UCL.

The bad teams in La Liga is better than in Premier League, didn't see the top teams in PL shit on the worse team in the same way.
Real Madrid won two times after he left. Why? As I mentioned. They have had a good midfield for years. Someone who defends pretty well and can set up others. They got Benzema to win a Trophy...
This is my point, one isn't downplaying him, but his PR and marketing fans uplift him to some stature he isn't. Doesn't mean he wasn't great, but he got the whole benefit of always being in good teams his whole life. People say oh he went to Juventus, for a new challenge. They won the league for many years in a row before he got there, they already were the best team, where is the challenge exactly? Man United were already the best team before he got there the first time. Real Madrid was already the best team or among the best teams before he got there. He alone didn't elevate them to something they weren't already. He was an important piece yes, but so were a lot of others getting less credit.

During the time when barcelona won a lot btw Madrid was not in their prime, Modric was considered the worst transfer in decades and was benched. Pepe was a nuthead and then average players like ozil and other players we managed to sell for a redicilous fee although they did look good becuase they passed the ball to ronaldo, who always is where he should be. but yet perhaps the only other notable player in portugal who is far inferior to what messi have had to work with in Argentina.

This is just not correct. Real Madrid was a good team during his whole time there, they just didn't have the best player. Pepe always been a little crazy, and Ozil wasn't average since apparently he came from the holy Premier League where he ran riot.

The only time Messi had on paper a really good team with Argentina when it comes to profiles and such was in 2006, but they hired Maradona and couldn't play together well as a team. They didn't have big teams in reality after this. Were they among the outsiders? Yes. Favorites? No. In the 2022-tournament they were among the strongest outsiders but also had a inexperienced team where no one in Argentina or around in the football world believed in the coach until they won the Copa America in 2021. With that, they were still not the main favorites going into 2022-tournament, but as said strong outsider. I know a few people listed them top 3, but most had them in the 4-6 range.

Now if you think winning a world cup is bigger its up to you , I mean its only played every 4 years i understand that but if you put Real Madrid after 2014 in that compeition i am pretty sure they would have a field day with any of these teams.

Everyone who understand football know World Cup is bigger than Champions League. Its not rocket science to get.

Real Madrid have never lost a final in its current format and it was 43 years ago they lost a final in an european competition, and they been in many.

Well, money talks. Also outside the field. Wasn't exactly all the early wins were pure and there is some rumblings about some of these later ones as well. Specifically the win vs. Atletico Madrid.

But yeah, this discussion is for another thread.

For this one, I believe Crosby/Ovechkin is the best one in NA over this period of time listed.