Is Crosby/Ovechkin the best player rivalry in big 4 sports leagues in the 21st century?

[bambamcam4ever]

If Lebron is Gordie Howe, Jordan is Bobby Orr/Sergei Fedorov (on Soldier Serum). Jordan has 9 scoring titles and 9 1st All Defensive Team selections. He won the scoring title and defensive player of the year in the same season after leading in scoring by almost 10 whole points (37 PPG) the season prior. Basically imagine McDavid following up his 2022-23 season with a 140 point selke winner. Then fill out the rest of his career with a Bobby Orr level prime and a few 2/3rd all star team worthy seasons at the tail end of his career.

Jordan was better at both ends of the court (albeit Lebron is no slouch defensively and can play/guard almost every position). Lebron was more well rounded, but Jordan was sharper. Lebron's longevity is the only reason it's really even a 1a/1b discussion, otherwise Jordan would clearly be 1 and Lebron at 2.

Are you ignoring or unaware that Jordan's DPOY was fraudulent and based on the scorekeeper fabricating stats for him?

 

[Rorschach]

I'm basketball if you shoot more you will score more. You may even hurt your team doing so. Looking at scoring titles is irrelevant. That said obviously Jordan was an incredible scorer. LeBron just contributes in many other ways that no one else can match.

Like passing to a well covered George Hill for the Finals winning shot.

 

[Video Nasty]

Are you ignoring or unaware that Jordan's DPOY was fraudulent and based on the scorekeeper fabricating stats for him?

Never took you for a Tom Haberstroh and Nick Wright simp.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Never took you for a Tom Haberstroh and Nick Wright simp.

https://sports.yahoo.com/a-closer-look-at-michael-jordans-1988-dpoy-award-raises-questions-about-its-validity-has-lebron-james-been-chasing-a-ghost-140452567.html?guccounter=1

 

[LightningStorm]

Kobe’s not better than Lebron lol. Kobe has a better argument to be outside the top 10 than ahead of Lebron.

If you think Kobe was better than LeBron you fundamentally don't understand the sport. There's no discussion to be had.

Yeah Kobe/Lebron was only interesting in the late 2000's when Kobe was still ahead due to entering the league 7 seasons earlier. As I said in my OP, their age gap was a limiting factor in a similar way the much higher potential Gretzky/Lemieux rivalry was. Though a decade into Lebron's career it was clear he was better than Kobe, and after 2016 I don't even think it was an interesting discussion anymore. I'd put Kobe in the Durant/Curry tier.

I don't even think Kobe was the best player born in between Jordan and Lebron. Shaq is to me, and he is the main reason Kobe won his first 3 rings.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Yeah Kobe/Lebron was only interesting in the late 2000's when Kobe was still ahead due to entering the league 7 seasons earlier. As I said in my OP, their age gap was a limiting factor in a similar way the much higher potential Gretzky/Lemieux rivalry was. Though a decade into Lebron's career it was clear he was better than Kobe, and after 2016 I don't even think it was an interesting discussion anymore. I'd put Kobe in the Durant/Curry tier.

I don't even think Kobe was the best player born in between Jordan and Lebron. Shaq is to me, and he is the main reason Kobe won his first 3 rings.

Kobe is painfully overhyped now because he died

 

[Voight]

Are you ignoring or unaware that Jordan's DPOY was fraudulent and based on the scorekeeper fabricating stats for him?

 

[LightningStorm]

Going outside of the big 4, a women’s basketball rivalry that I find dumb and contrived is Caitlin Clark vs Angel Reese, mainly because Clark is way better. It’s extra dumb when people say they are the women’s version of Johnson/Bird. I actually found putting things in hockey terms is the easiest way to convey how idiotic this comparison is.

As alluded to in my OP, Johnson/Bird in NHL terms is similar to Crosby/Ovechkin. 2 all time great players who entered the league at the same time to much hype and had some epic clashes. Clark/Reese is like Crosby/Toews, a contrived rivalry made up by the media where one player is clearly better than the other. Heck, the WNBA media overhyping Reese brought back memories for me of what the hockey media did to Toews 10-15 years ago.

 

[Overrated]

Do you remember how he did after group stage?

1. 2014 World Cup:

No goals in the knockout rounds (though he provided key assists). MVP?



2. 2022 World Cup:

Round of 16: Scored 1 goal vs. Australia (lol) .

Quarterfinal: Scored 1 penalty goal vs. Netherlands.

Semifinal: Scored 1 penalty goal vs. Croatia.

Final: Scored 2 goals vs. France (1 from open play, 1 penalty).

2 non penalty goals in 2 world cups combined in knockout stages and he get MVP? Laughable, anyone with an ounce of football knowledge know he didn't deserve a damn thing.

And Messi isn't well rounded he is a pretty lazy player, you can't call him a 2 way player by any stretch of imagination. He has good skills though.

And Barcelona also had a legendary team.


________

Comparing Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo in terms of average distance covered per game is challenging because they have very different playing styles and roles on the pitch. However, general trends from tracking data suggest the following:

Lionel Messi:

Average distance covered per match: ~7-8 km (varies slightly depending on the game).

Messi is known for his "economical" movement, conserving energy for short bursts of intense action, dribbles, and positioning. His game is focused more on efficiency, spatial awareness, and explosive moments rather than constant running.


Cristiano Ronaldo:

Average distance covered per match: ~9-10 km (again, depends on the match and role).

Ronaldo tends to move more off the ball, making runs into space, pressing defenders, and contributing aerially. His style has adapted over time, especially as he transitioned into more of a striker role, where he covers slightly less distance compared to his earlier days as a winger.


Conclusion:

On average, Cristiano Ronaldo covers more distance during games than Messi. This is due to Ronaldo's off-the-ball movements and pressing, while Messi is more strategic, conserving energy for decisive moments. However, both players are incredibly effective in their unique styles, and their distances covered reflect their tailored approaches to maximizing their impact on the game.

McDavid was 34th in goals last season and you guys call him Jesus lol. Funny enough to set up a goal in soccer you need way more passes so it would make a lot more sense to count points the way Canadians do in hockey. In fact some of the greatest playmakers in history barely scored any assists because they played too deep to be involved in the final pass. Messi had an absolutely amazing WC. He got one of the greatest assists I've ever seen against the Netherlands:


and then another absolutely insane assist against Croatia:


And he did that all as a completely washed up super slow old player. In fact besides Maradona 86 Messi 2022 might be the absolute greatest WC performance ever by any player. He hard carried the entire team got two of the greatest assists ever and 7 goals.

Also I have no idea why you make it look like Cristiano is some sort of a defensive player who presses a ton. He doesn't press at all these are his pressing stats while at MANU a few years back LOL:

Cristiano is just a stat padder. He is a decent playmaker but since he joined Real he has really become just a goal scorer kind of like Ovechkin. He doesn't contribute too much beyond the goals. Messi is way more of a rounded player offensively speaking. Since Messi plays a lot deeper he contributes to his team way more. Funny enough lifetime Messi has a higher GPG and even a higher absolute goals scored in a season than any player ever in history.

 

[x Tame Impala]

https://sports.yahoo.com/a-closer-look-at-michael-jordans-1988-dpoy-award-raises-questions-about-its-validity-has-lebron-james-been-chasing-a-ghost-140452567.html?guccounter=1

Even IF that were true, does it mean that Jordan was not a consistently excellent defensive player while also being the best scorer? What does MJ's 9x All Defensive Team awards mean in comparison to Lebron's 6 awards in 7 more seasons?

 

[The Podium]

Mahommes Allen could continue to grow into one of the best rivalries of all time

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Even IF that were true, does it mean that Jordan was not a consistently excellent defensive player while also being the best scorer? What does MJ's 9x All Defensive Team awards mean in comparison to Lebron's 6 awards in 7 more seasons?

Why do we need the IF? There is pretty overwhelming evidence.

A good defensive player who is 6'9 is just much more impactful than a good defensive guard. Just the nature of the sport, it's a tall people game. LeBron can guard 1s-4s at an elite level, Jordan could not.

 

[BB88]

Ronaldo vs Messi maybe? I'm not a soccer fan, but those two have been head to head for greatest footballers ever in any conversation I come across.

Oh sorry, I misread big 4 NA sports. That's a tougher one as I don't watch anything but hockey hehehe

Worldwide nobody comes close to Messi vs Ronaldo

2 players tryint to make their a case for their goat battle in their primes at the same time in Football, nothing comes close

 

[Video Nasty]

Even IF that were true, does it mean that Jordan was not a consistently excellent defensive player while also being the best scorer? What does MJ's 9x All Defensive Team awards mean in comparison to Lebron's 6 awards in 7 more seasons?

Not to mention the season prior, when he scored over 3000 points, he had just 23 fewer steals and 6 fewer blocks, with more normalized splits. Not exactly out of the realm of possibility that Jordan’s extra intensity comes through even more in home games when he’s gunning to be known as the best defender in addition to his already prolific scoring. Even in those early years, the Bulls had monstrously better home records than away. With all that research designed to pull down Jordan, the results kind of speak for themselves. I don’t see where this idea of pretend steals and blocks is coming from when the Bulls results were essentially a 59 win team at home and a 31 win team on the road in 1986-1987 and 1987-1988 combined. If Jordan was hellbent on winning that award heading into 1987-1988, it just makes sense he’s going to go all out even more when playing at home.

That case being built off one guy’s testimony and a handful of game footage, peddled by someone interested in LeBron being crowned the greatest because his resume is lacking in certain areas, is laughable. LeBron only fans latching onto it is even more so, but not unexpected.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Why do we need the IF? There is pretty overwhelming evidence.

A good defensive player who is 6'9 is just much more impactful than a good defensive guard. Just the nature of the sport, it's a tall people game. LeBron can guard 1s-4s at an elite level, Jordan could not.

Then why doesn’t Lebron have more ADT awards?? You’re reaching. Making me glad the Internet didn’t exist to this extent when Jordan was playing.

Someone literally poisoned Jordan’s pizza before Finals game. I’m not putting anything past anyone at this point with how far or how crazily they’ll go to be the edgy writer who will demystify Jordan. His legacy speaks for itself. It’s just meatballs like you who want to be contrarian.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Then why doesn’t Lebron have more ADT awards?? You’re reaching. Making me glad the Internet didn’t exist to this extent when Jordan was playing.

Someone literally poisoned Jordan’s pizza before Finals game. I’m not putting anything past anyone at this point with how far or how crazily they’ll go to be the edgy writer who will demystify Jordan. His legacy speaks for itself. It’s just meatballs like you who want to be contrarian.

No, no one poisoned his pizza. That's not what food poisoning is. You clearly are too conspiracy-minded. Come back to reality.

 

[x Tame Impala]

No, no one poisoned his pizza. That's not what food poisoning is. You clearly are too conspiracy-minded. Come back to reality.

6 ATD vs 9 ATD for Jordan. What’s your rebuttal, pizza face?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

6 ATD vs 9 ATD for Jordan. What’s your rebuttal, pizza face?

I don't care how people voted, sportswriters are not experts by any means. Especially when not all these games were even available nationwide at the time! Especially the same people who voted Jordan DPOY.

Derek Jeter got 5 gold gloves in a different sport. Ron Artest was a better defensive player than either of them and only was first team defense twice. Rodman and Pippin (his teammates) were better than him defensively too.

And most importantly, they are not even competing for the same thing! All NBA defense at guard is not as valuable as it is at forward, and especially not as valuable as center.

 

[x Tame Impala]

I don't care how people voted, sportswriters are not experts by any means. Especially when not all these games were even available nationwide at the time! Especially the same people who voted Jordan DPOY.

Derek Jeter got 5 gold gloves in a different sport. Ron Artest was a better defensive player than either of them and only was first team defense twice. Rodman and Pippin (his teammates) were better than him defensively too.

And most importantly, they are not even competing for the same thing! All NBA defense at guard is not as valuable as it is at forward, and especially not as valuable as center.

Ok so you're saying Jordan's defensive acumen was overstated and LeBron is a better defensive player than Michael Jordan. Got it

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Ok so you're saying Jordan's defensive acumen was overstated and LeBron is a better defensive player than Michael Jordan. Got it

Yes, that is correct.

On the other hand, you keep falling for the myth of Jordan. It used to be the "flu game", and then that was shown not to be the case when it was revealed it was just food poisoning. But that's never enough for the myth of Jordan, he had to be the victim of poisoning apparently.

He was an incredible player, the second best perimeter player ever. It's ok to be 2nd.

 

[BB88]

Brady/Manning
Curry/James

Not even close

 

[leafsfan5]

Lebron/Curry in the 2010s maybe but I think Crosby/Ovi was better

Lebron and Curry could've been the best rivalry but Durant ruined it by going to GSW

Tipped the scales to the point where it didn't matter anymore

 

[Regal]

Yes, that is correct.

On the other hand, you keep falling for the myth of Jordan. It used to be the "flu game", and then that was shown not to be the case when it was revealed it was just food poisoning. But that's never enough for the myth of Jordan, he had to be the victim of poisoning apparently.

He was an incredible player, the second best perimeter player ever. It's ok to be 2nd.

I think Jordan was clearly the better one on one wing defender but LeBron was better off the ball and the more versatile defender because his size meant he could defend much better in the post. Thing is, is difficult to both guard the other team’s best wing and be the main offensive catalyst on the other end for 40 min a night, so LeBron probably had more value overall while Jordan was better situationally.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

This is like having Messier over Lemieux.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Jon Jones vs Rules and Laws

Also Lebron James > Kobe Bryant
Kobe Bryant was an incredible player but Lebron James is the only competition to Michael Jordan. He might retire as the GOAT