Is Crosby/Ovechkin the best player rivalry in big 4 sports leagues in the 21st century?

[pi314]

Patrik Stefan vs an empty net.

 

[the valiant effort]

The 2000s decade of EPL feuds and rivalries was a hell of a time to be a soccer fan.

 

[Haatley]

Brady/Manning
Curry/James

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Playing for longer doesn't make someone better. Talk about rebounds, sure Bron plays forward and sometimes even C, of course it'll happen.

Kobe was a significantly better defender than Lebron James with comparable and even better offensive production in his prime. Kobe took HIS team to multiple champions, he didn't quite multiple times and recruit multiple hall of famers for a free ride through the playoffs.

Lebron is more athletic and faster of course, better rebounder due to his position. Kobe is the closest thing to MJ we have ever seen.

Lebrons prime has lasted much longer obviously which is impressive, but if we're talking who was the better player, give me Kobe all day.

If you think Kobe was better than LeBron you fundamentally don't understand the sport. There's no discussion to be had.

 

[cupface52]

Playing for longer doesn't make someone better. Talk about rebounds, sure Bron plays forward and sometimes even C, of course it'll happen.

Kobe was a significantly better defender than Lebron James with comparable and even better offensive production in his prime. Kobe took HIS team to multiple champions, he didn't quite multiple times and recruit multiple hall of famers for a free ride through the playoffs.

Lebron is more athletic and faster of course, better rebounder due to his position. Kobe is the closest thing to MJ we have ever seen.

Lebrons prime has lasted much longer obviously which is impressive, but if we're talking who was the better player, give me Kobe all day.

So surely it would make sense if Kobe had more assists then LeBron as Kobe plays guard. That's not the case though, as Lebron averaged 65% more apg than Kobe.

 

[LightningStorm]

Best teammate rivalry ever! Secret Base did a great 3 part mini series on their feud, which fleshes out the timeline of it great. In their 8 seasons together, seasons 3-5 were really bad, but it seemed to be over in seasons 6-7. But then right before their final season together it flared up for the worse again, leading to Shaq demanding a trade following their finals loss to the Pistons.

 

[wetcoast]

Voted yes because I had too, I'm sure MJ agrees.

 

[Signupnow]

Messi's been ahead for a while and after recent years there is no argument for Ronaldo whatsoever.

Except for the fact that Ronaldo is the leading champions league scorer, the leading intentional scorer and have more CL titles on his own than all clubs messi has played for combined. Messi choked on a stacked world Cup team during later stages almost 3 times straight but managed in the end but it's not like he was a stand out. Little one cannot handle pressure.

Edit. And oh, without his hormone treatment that benefit his muscles permanently by the myonuclei he would be playing soccer with tyron lanister in paralympics. Imagine if everyone else had acess to hormone treatment.

 

[hamzarocks]

So surely it would make sense if Kobe had more assists then LeBron as Kobe plays guard. That's not the case though, as Lebron averaged 65% more apg than Kobe.

Small forwards get more assists & rebounds than SGs but score less

Kobe isnt as good as lebron but lebron being a SF would be expected to avg more rebounds and assists.

Look at guys like Larry Bird, Andre Igoudala, Scottie Pippen

All SFs who got 6-8 assists a game at there primes

Lebron is probably the GOAT of the NBA b/c MJ didnt take his legacy seriously enough. He needed to play 1994, 1995, 1999, 2000 and 2001 seasons to give him 5 more years of elite longevity and more potential accolades which would put him to far for Lebron to catch up to despite a very lengthy career prime

MJ has 13 elite years and 2 good ones in compared to lebron having 19-20 elite ones and 2-3 good ones

 

[Voight]

Except for the fact that Ronaldo is the leading champions league scorer, the leading intentional scorer and have more CL titles on his own than all clubs messi has played for combined. Messi choked on a stacked world Cup team during later stages almost 3 times straight but managed in the end but it's not like he was a stand out. Little one cannot handle pressure.

Edit. And oh, without his hormone treatment that benefit his muscles permanently by the myonuclei he would be playing soccer with tyron lanister in paralympics. Imagine if everyone else had acess to hormone treatment.

Scoring in the final = choking? Gotcha.

Messi lead his team to two World Cup finals where as Ronaldo has made it to the final four once. Also since Ronaldo last won the Ballon d'OR, Messi has won three more. Ronaldo was an integral part of Real Madrid and won a bunch of CL's, but those teams were insanely stacked (hence why they've continued to win after he left) and he had plenty of help. The scoring records are notable but it helps that hes primarily a goalscorer... unlike Messi who's more of an all round player.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Kobe’s not better than Lebron lol. Kobe has a better argument to be outside the top 10 than ahead of Lebron.

Agreed , quite frankly it's not even close between kobe and lebron

 

[Overrated]

I voted yes. Messi vs Ronaldo was never close. Ovi and Crosby are actually similar in skill.

Scoring in the final = choking? Gotcha.

Messi lead his team to two World Cup finals where as Ronaldo has made it to the final four once. Also since Ronaldo last won the Ballon d'OR, Messi has won three more. Ronaldo was an integral part of Real Madrid and won a bunch of CL's, but those teams were insanely stacked (hence why they've continued to win after he left) and he had plenty of help. The scoring records are notable but it helps that hes primarily a goalscorer... unlike Messi who's more of an all round player.

Not just scoring. He won the MVP as well. He also won the MVP in 2014 when he lost in the finals lol. In 2022 he was beyond everyone. No idea what the guy was babbling about.

Edit. And oh, without his hormone treatment that benefit his muscles permanently by the myonuclei he would be playing soccer with tyron lanister in paralympics. Imagine if everyone else had acess to hormone treatment.

Imagine if Mario didn't get his cancer treatment. Also Lionel only took hormones from 12 to 16 and still ended up 5'6'5.

 

[Signupnow]

Scoring in the final = choking? Gotcha.

Messi lead his team to two World Cup finals where as Ronaldo has made it to the final four once. Also since Ronaldo last won the Ballon d'OR, Messi has won three more. Ronaldo was an integral part of Real Madrid and won a bunch of CL's, but those teams were insanely stacked (hence why they've continued to win after he left) and he had plenty of help. The scoring records are notable but it helps that hes primarily a goalscorer... unlike Messi who's more of an all round player.

Do you remember how he did after group stage?

1. 2014 World Cup:

No goals in the knockout rounds (though he provided key assists). MVP?



2. 2022 World Cup:

Round of 16: Scored 1 goal vs. Australia (lol) .

Quarterfinal: Scored 1 penalty goal vs. Netherlands.

Semifinal: Scored 1 penalty goal vs. Croatia.

Final: Scored 2 goals vs. France (1 from open play, 1 penalty).

2 non penalty goals in 2 world cups combined in knockout stages and he get MVP? Laughable, anyone with an ounce of football knowledge know he didn't deserve a damn thing.

And Messi isn't well rounded he is a pretty lazy player, you can't call him a 2 way player by any stretch of imagination. He has good skills though.

And Barcelona also had a legendary team.


________

Comparing Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo in terms of average distance covered per game is challenging because they have very different playing styles and roles on the pitch. However, general trends from tracking data suggest the following:

Lionel Messi:

Average distance covered per match: ~7-8 km (varies slightly depending on the game).

Messi is known for his "economical" movement, conserving energy for short bursts of intense action, dribbles, and positioning. His game is focused more on efficiency, spatial awareness, and explosive moments rather than constant running.


Cristiano Ronaldo:

Average distance covered per match: ~9-10 km (again, depends on the match and role).

Ronaldo tends to move more off the ball, making runs into space, pressing defenders, and contributing aerially. His style has adapted over time, especially as he transitioned into more of a striker role, where he covers slightly less distance compared to his earlier days as a winger.


Conclusion:

On average, Cristiano Ronaldo covers more distance during games than Messi. This is due to Ronaldo's off-the-ball movements and pressing, while Messi is more strategic, conserving energy for decisive moments. However, both players are incredibly effective in their unique styles, and their distances covered reflect their tailored approaches to maximizing their impact on the game.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Small forwards get more assists & rebounds than SGs but score less

Kobe isnt as good as lebron but lebron being a SF would be expected to avg more rebounds and assists.

Look at guys like Larry Bird, Andre Igoudala, Scottie Pippen

All SFs who got 6-8 assists a game at there primes

Lebron is probably the GOAT of the NBA b/c MJ didnt take his legacy seriously enough. He needed to play 1994, 1995, 1999, 2000 and 2001 seasons to give him 5 more years of elite longevity and more potential accolades which would put him to far for Lebron to catch up to despite a very lengthy career prime

MJ has 13 elite years and 2 good ones in compared to lebron having 19-20 elite ones and 2-3 good ones

I don't really watch basketball so feel free to educate me. How is the discussion close if Jordan leads Lebron in scoring titles 10-1?

 

[hamzarocks]

I don't really watch basketball so feel free to educate me. How is the discussion close if Jordan leads Lebron in scoring titles 10-1?

The gap in ppg and efficiency is a wash basically

Part of this is due to

1) Lebron playing in a 3pt era which helps his totals vs MJ who played pre 3pt heavy reliance

2) Lebron hasnt won as many scoring titles as MJ but he has been generally top 3-4 in scoring pts in his prime every year and is up there for rebs+assists

MJ is still the better scorer than Lebron. He was able to score at an absrud efficiency in an era where there was dominant big man who made driving difficult and hand checking was allowed

As players they are pretty equal in value and talent. Difference is neglibile

One player did it for 15 years vs another who has done for 22 years. Those 7 years add up and should make Lebron the GOAT.

MJ didnt dominate the NBA like Gretzky did the NHL.

Lebron is a better version of Gordie Howe in the NBA.

He has to be the goat imo based on him keeping his elite play for so long

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

The gap in ppg and efficiency is a wash basically

Part of this is due to

1) Lebron playing in a 3pt era which helps his totals vs MJ who played pre 3pt heavy reliance

2) Lebron hasnt won as many scoring titles as MJ but he has been generally top 3-4 in scoring pts in his prime every year and is up there for rebs+assists

MJ is still the better scorer than Lebron. He was able to score at an absrud efficiency in an era where there was dominant big man who made driving difficult and hand checking was allowed

As players they are pretty equal in value and talent. Difference is neglibile

One player did it for 15 years vs another who has done for 22 years. Those 7 years add up and should make Lebron the GOAT.

MJ didnt dominate the NBA like Gretzky did the NHL.

Lebron is a better version of Gordie Howe in the NBA.

He has to be the goat imo based on him keeping his elite play for so long

The difference between Jordan and Lebron is a HOF player.

This is the gap, not even counting championships:

1x MVP
2x Finals MVP
9x Scoring Champ
6x 1st team all Defense
1x Defensive Player of the Year

Playing at a high level for longer doesn't make you the better player if your accolades are that short. Unless you think Bourque and Lidstrom are better than Orr because they were elite for longer.

 

[Snuggs]

No... Top 5 maybe.

Manning/Brady
Messi/Ronaldo
Fedor/Nadal
LeBron/Curry

Especially because you could make an argument Penguins "first" rival was the Red Wings from 06-2010. Until Washington got Ovechkin a lot more help.

 

[kerrabria]

I don't really watch basketball so feel free to educate me. How is the discussion close if Jordan leads Lebron in scoring titles 10-1?

That's like saying Ovechkin is better than Crosby because of 9-2 Richards. There's a lot more to the game than just scoring. Lebron is among the most versatile, complete basketball players ever and has Gordie Howe tier longevity.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

That's like saying Ovechkin is better than Crosby because of 9-2 Richards. There's a lot more to the game than just scoring. Lebron is among the most versatile, complete basketball players ever and has Gordie Howe tier longevity.

In your example Ovechkin would also have more Harts, Smythes, Cups and Selkes than Crosby.

Also the true comparison to hockey would be "like saying Ovechkin is better than Crosby because of 9-2 Ross seasons"

 

[Machinehead]

Kobe > Lebron

This is like having Messier over Lemieux.

 

[hamzarocks]

This is like having Messier over Lemieux.

The gap is closer than that

Kobe is a top 10 player all time

Probably 8th-12th.

He is basically OV for me in terms of all time rankings in the NBA.

Messier doesnt crack most peoples top 20s

 

[kerrabria]

In your example Ovechkin would also have more Harts, Smythes, Cups and Selkes than Crosby.

Also the true comparison to hockey would be "like saying Ovechkin is better than Crosby because of 9-2 Ross seasons"

I like the Rocket example better because it's pure scoring. Gets messy when you try to factor assists. Also then should factor rebounds since that's the third major stat and Art Ross counts secondary assists?

And I'm not gonna be the 10,000,000th person to debate Jordan vs Lebron. I was just pointing out that Jordan averaging like 10% more points per game doesn't definitely make him the better player.

 

[Machinehead]

The gap is closer than that

Kobe is a top 10 player all time

Probably 8th-12th.

He is basically OV for me in terms of all time rankings in the NBA.

Messier doesnt crack most peoples top 20s

I've seen Messier pretty consistently 10th to 15th, which is where Kobe should be.

Both players won a fistful of rings, but with the majority of them on teams where they were firmly the second-best player.

 

[hamzarocks]

The difference between Jordan and Lebron is a HOF player.

This is the gap, not even counting championships:

1x MVP
2x Finals MVP
9x Scoring Champ
6x 1st team all Defense
1x Defensive Player of the Year

Playing at a high level for longer doesn't make you the better player if your accolades are that short. Unless you think Bourque and Lidstrom are better than Orr because they were elite for longer.

Lebron has

1) 11X MVP finalist (top 3) vs 10X for MJ - Lebron 1 more

2) 14X top 5 MVP vs 10X for MJ - Lebron 4 more

3) 19 X top 10 MVP vs 11X for Lebron - 8 more

That can be argued to be a Hall of fame career level gap between the two

Add All NBA teams + All star appearances and can easily see why some people would prefer lebrons career over MJ

If MJ had played those 5 additional years (94-95, 99-01) than he would not be catachable for LBJ. That is likely 1 MVP, 2 top 3s, and 2 top 5-10 place finishes

 

[kerrabria]

The only thing I'll say about LBJ vs MJ is this:
Jordan is the greatest wing of all time. Lebron (who himself would be classified as a wing) is the greatest all-around basketball player of all time.

If the only way you measure greatness is through number of trophies per season, then you should also put Kareem above Lebron, which nobody does.