Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[Felidae]

Good point. Many love to use McDavids higher scoring era as a line of reasoning why he’s been dominant. But no one is talking about how crosbys 19 consecutive PPG seasons should have an asterisk next to it.

An asterisk to it? That's ridiculous. Many players have played in fluctuating scoring eras, yet Crosby is the only one to achieve this outside Gretzky.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Much more honest to pretend that the heater was normal and extrapolate out three seasons worth of stats to make Crosby seem closer to McDavid than he really was.

- In the first 25 games after he came back from his big concussion/neck injury, Crosby had 40 pts.

- During the lockout shortened season, he had a stretch of 45 pts in 25 games.

- During the 2013-2014 season, he had a stretch of 40 pts in 25 games.

- He also finished the 2009-2010 season with 38 points in his last 25 games (41 in last 26).

It’s not like those god mode stretches of hockey were a one time type of thing for Crosby at his peak.

 

[Video Nasty]

- In the first 25 games after he came back from his big concussion/neck injury, Crosby had 40 pts.

- During the lockout shortened season, he had a stretch of 45 pts in 25 games.

- During the 2013-2014 season, he had a stretch of 40 pts in 25 games.

- He also finished the 2009-2010 season with 38 points in his last 25 games (41 in last 26).

It’s not like those god mode stretches of hockey were a one time type of thing for Crosby at his peak.

I didn’t say they were, but thanks for proving my point that he can only keep up those stretches for so long.

Here’s my favorite. 95 points in his first 56 games (59 team games) of 2006-2007 and 25 in his final 23.

 

[norrisnick]

- In the first 25 games after he came back from his big concussion/neck injury, Crosby had 40 pts.

- During the lockout shortened season, he had a stretch of 45 pts in 25 games.

- During the 2013-2014 season, he had a stretch of 40 pts in 25 games.

- He also finished the 2009-2010 season with 38 points in his last 25 games (41 in last 26).

It’s not like those god mode stretches of hockey were a one time type of thing for Crosby at his peak.

I'm not sure that highlighting 25 game runs is making the point you think they're supposed to be making.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

I didn’t say they were, but thanks for proving my point that he can only keep up those stretches for so long.

Here’s my favorite. 95 points in his first 56 games (59 team games) of 2006-2007 and 25 in his final 23.

We’ve already been through that together. Every time Crosby has played the first half of a season at a 1,50+ PPG clip while playing >75% of the GP, he scored at least 120 points.

He did so in 2010-2011, 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 but couldn’t finish the season. He didn’t do it in 2013-2014.

You do the rest.

 

[Video Nasty]

We’ve already been through that together. Every time Crosby has played the first half of a season at a 1,50+ PPG clip while playing >75% of the GP, he scored at least 120 points.

He did so in 2010-2011, 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 but couldn’t finish the season. He didn’t do it in 2013-2014.

You do the rest.

The guy scored 110+ once in a 20 year career. Great sample size.

 

[norrisnick]

The guy scored 110+ once in a 20 year career. Great sample size.

Yeah, a data set of 1 out of 19 seasons sounds like an outlier more than anything.

 

[Video Nasty]

Yeah, a data set of 1 out of 19 seasons sounds like an outlier more than anything.

Can you believe him? Passing off a one time event as gospel? Pretending that Crosby was a lock to do it during those three seasons?

2011-2012: He played 8 games in the first half. It doesn't even match up with his parameters.

"He didn't do it in 2013-2014"

He didn't do it in 2008-2009 and 2009-2010 either.

The guy wins one Art Ross and hits 100 points four times past the age of 19, but sure, let's project the world for him because he "should" have done 110-120 year in and year out.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

The guy scored 110+ once in a 20 year career. Great sample size.

Great to see you being intellectually dishonest once again when it comes to Crosby, by now suddenly ignoring the context behind the impact of the low scoring environment when he was at his peak.

There’s a grand total of 0 players who have scored more than 110 points more than once during Crosby’s prime. (2007-2019)

 

[norrisnick]

Great to see you being intellectually dishonest once again when it comes to Crosby, by now suddenly ignoring the context behind the impact of the low scoring environment when he was at his peak.

There’s a grand total of 0 players who have scored more than 110 points more than once during Crosby’s prime. (2007-2019)

Which explains why we should believe Crosby was going to do it three years running how?

 

[Golden_Jet]

We’ve already been through that together. Every time Crosby has played the first half of a season at a 1,50+ PPG clip while playing >75% of the GP, he scored at least 120 points.

He did so in 2010-2011, 2011-2012 and 2012-2013 but couldn’t finish the season. He didn’t do it in 2013-2014.

You do the rest.

Wow
He got 120 points once.
Did it in the seventh highest power play opportunity in the last 60 years.
The most recent years are the lowest, so in the 50’s highest

Only chose 60 years as that is as far as the record goes.

That’s makes sense if you break down the season,
Crosby had 61 PP points that year and 59 EVP.
So more PP than EVP.

PP opportunities

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[Video Nasty]

Great to see you being intellectually dishonest once again when it comes to Crosby, by now suddenly ignoring the context behind the impact of the low scoring environment when he was at his peak.

There’s a grand total of 0 players who have scored more than 110 points more than once during Crosby’s prime. (2007-2019)

*mentions 110+, gets back “more than 110” in response because it makes Crosby look bad to recognize that Ovechkin did it twice*

If Crosby is truly the greatest player of his generation, the supposed de facto #5, and someone who is generously projected to have a slew of 120, 130, even 140 point seasons, yeah, he should have managed to drop 110+ multiple times in reality, regardless of injuries. Not once when he was 19 and never again.

 

[DitchMarner]

It wasn’t serious. I was simply poking fun at the posters who bring up “higher scoring era” when talking about McDavids accomplishments. Yet Crosbys totals increased as scoring did as well.

Crosby's PPG streak is one of the most impressive things in his career. But you do have to wonder if he would have maintained it if not for the rise in scoring.


Since 2020, he is 11th in points per game (1.16 PPG).

Between 2013 and 2017, when scoring was lower, Tyler Seguin was 11th in points per game with an average of 0.96.


So people can argue whether he would still have the streak or not if scoring had not gone up quite a bit (he may, but there's no guarantee), but he still deserves credit for extending it. Likewise, people who say things like McDavid's 100 assist season isn't really that impressive because scoring is up are out to lunch. Scoring was a lot higher at times in the 70s, 80s and 90s and many talented players never hit 100 assists in a season. It works both ways.

 

[DitchMarner]

Here's a post I made in this thread a while back again:

Here's one means of comparison:

2011:

Full season pace:

Crosby: 132 points
Daniel Sedin: 104 points
Martin St. Louis: 99 points
Corey Perry: 98 points
Henrik Sedin: 94 points
Getzlaf: 93 points
Stamkos: 91 points
Selanne: 90 points
Ovechkin: 89 points
Brad Richards: 88 points

Here are the percentages of Crosby's projected total that players scored at:

Daniel: 79%
St. Louis: 75%
Perry: 74%
Henrik: 71%
Getzlaf: 70%
Stamkos: 69%
Selanne: 68%
Ovechkin: 67%
Richards: 67%

2021:

Full season pace:

McDavid: 105 points
Draisaitl: 84 points
Panarin: 77 points
Mackinnon: 76 points
Marchand: 73 points
Matthews: 71 points
Rantanen: 71 points
Marner: 68 points
Kane: 66 points
Barkov: 65 points

Here are the percentages of McDavid's projected total that players scored at:

Draisaitl: 80%
Panarin: 73%
MacKinnon: 72%
Marchand: 70%
Matthews: 68%
Rantanen; 68%
Marner: 65%
Kane: 63%
Barkov: 62%


Rather similar. McDavid has an advantage, but it's not enormous.


However, if we do the comparison from Jan 5, 2011 (when Crosby was at 41 games played and so were Stamkos and St. Louis), here are the results:

Full season pace:

Crosby: 132 points
Stamkos: 112 points
Henrik: 105 points
Daniel: 105 points
St. Louis: 102 points
Datsyuk: 97 points
Richards: 94 points
Zetterberg: 93 points
Chris Stewart: 89 points
Kopitar: 89 points

Here are the percentages of Crosby's projected total that players scored at:

Stamkos: 85%
Sedin: 80%
Sedin: 80%
St. Louis: 77%
Datsyuk: 73%
Richards: 71%
Zetterberg: 70%
Stewart; 67%
Kopitar: 67%

The differences:

2021 to full 2011:

1% (Crosby's favor)
2% (McDavid's favor)
2% (McDavid's favor)
1% (McDavid's favor)
2% (McDavid's favor)
1% (McDavid's favor)
3% (McDavid's favor)
4% (McDavid's favor)
5% (McDavid's favor)

2021 to half 2011:

5% (McDavid's favor)
7% (McDavid's favor)
8% (McDavid's favor)
7% (McDavid's favor)
5% (McDavid's favor)
3% (McDavid's favor)
5% (McDavid's favor)
4% (McDavid's favor)
5% (McDavid's favor)


When comparing from the mid-season point of 2011 (before certain top scorers' averages atrophied), the gaps between Crosby's percentage dominance and McDavid's become considerable (in favor of McDavid). If the thing we really want to get to the bottom of is how dominant they were relative to their peers, I don't know why you would compare Crosby's end of season points per game average to the averages of guys who played 82 or close to 82 games (when he played literally half the season). We can compare McDavid's PPG average in 2021 to those of other guys who played the entire season.


Also, do injuries and missed games matter or not? When I brought up that Draisaitl was clearly playing injured in the SCF and that's one of the main reasons EDM lost (and it had nothing to do with McDavid or his play), I was told that injuries are just excuses or something.

 

[Bear of Bad News]