Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[GreatGonzo]

they were perfect captains that lead their teams the right way, and got shit done

actually. I dunno what was wrong with me earlier. I was in a rush and for some reason looked at his assists and thought it was points.
I always knew Sakic had 1500+ points actually its 1600+ but when I looked again today and seen 1016 I thought I must have forgotten or misremembered. was thinking McDavid was only 34 points behind him and with numbers that close and with McDavid's trophy case it likely over steps cup wins

so ignore what I said there. McDavid likely a tier above both Sakic and Yzerman but not passing them all-time just yet. few more years he likely does

Ya they “got it done” because they also happened to be surrounded by some of the greatest talent the league has ever seen.

That’s fair, that’s why I asked. Was very curious as to why you would have those two above McDavid

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Ya they “got it done” because they also happened to be surrounded by some of the greatest talent the league has ever seen.

That’s fair, that’s why I asked. Was very curious as to why you would have those two above McDavid

hey man, Oilers have had their issues but they have had good opportunity. its not like they have been stonewalled in the 1st round like the leafs or OV was for years in the 2nd. made it to the conference finals multiple times and made it to the cup final. Oilers had a pretty solid team overall. could have gone the other way too. McDavid will get the job done likely very soon.

I agree McDavid is likely a tier above all these players, its a very good argument for some players i just view the all time list to just take time to get there. I mean cant really say he doesnt deserve to be talked about questionably being there right now. what he's doing is amazing. likely go down as a top 5 all time player but I think it takes towards the end of his career to get there.

but yeah Ill agree those DET and COL teams were pretty stacked
.
but honestly I find what Crosby has done throughout his career to be so good that I just find it disrespectful to how good he was to bump him out so quickly. its a good argument on both sides though imo

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

I actually think Crosby is more like LeBron and Mcdavid more like Jordan (minus all the championships of course). Jordan is the flasher player and has 10 scoring titles and LeBron has 1, but they're considered comparable players. LeBron has a more versatile game and his longevity is unmatched.

But of course championships are required to be in the conversation.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

If Crosby were capable of outscoring Benn those years, don't you think he would have? Or are you suggesting he simply decided to not score? Or he simply decided to just not play those 7 games?

14-15 and the first half of 15-16 you can thank Mike Johnston and his ultra defensive style for that. Horrible system that eventually got him fired.

But that's Crosby, he's always team first and bought into the system. Mcdavid and Draisaitl both blow their zone early nearly every possession. They would never accept playing in a defensive system.

 

[Video Nasty]

I actually think Crosby is more like LeBron and Mcdavid more like Jordan (minus all the championships of course). Jordan is the flasher player and has 10 scoring titles and LeBron has 1, but they're considered comparable players. LeBron has a more versatile game and his longevity is unmatched.

But of course championships are required to be in the conversation.

You’re forgetting a key point here. Jordan was the greatest two-way player ever. And that’s real two-way play, not the pretend version that’s popular around here when describing Crosby, or quite frankly, any NHL player outside of Bobby Orr.

When we focus on his ten scoring titles, highest PPG in league history in both the regular season and playoffs, and flashiness, what is being forgotten is that he was a defensive player of the year, led the league in steals three times, was voted to the All-NBA defensive first team a still record nine times, was second only to Stockton in career steals when he retired, and has the fourth highest steals per game average in league history.

LeBron may be the second greatest player ever, his longevity has been staggering, and I understand why a very vocal crowd would rank him over Jordan, but I don’t see their play and skill sets as that comparable. LeBron has never been the defensive monster Jordan was, nor ever came close to matching his offensive prowess.

 

[GreatGonzo]

hey man, Oilers have had their issues but they have had good opportunity. its not like they have been stonewalled in the 1st round like the leafs or OV was for years in the 2nd. made it to the conference finals multiple times and made it to the cup final. Oilers had a pretty solid team overall. could have gone the other way too. McDavid will get the job done likely very soon.

I agree McDavid is likely a tier above all these players, its a very good argument for some players i just view the all time list to just take time to get there. I mean cant really say he doesnt deserve to be talked about questionably being there right now. what he's doing is amazing. likely go down as a top 5 all time player but I think it takes towards the end of his career to get there.

but yeah Ill agree those DET and COL teams were pretty stacked
.
but honestly I find what Crosby has done throughout his career to be so good that I just find it disrespectful to how good he was to bump him out so quickly. its a good argument on both sides though imo

They had some good runs and unfortunately ran into the last 3 cup winners. Definitely not the best of luck, but I wouldn’t compare these Oilers teams to those Detroit or Colorado teams. The Oilers defense and goaltending have continued to be suspect, all while Draisaitl can’t seem to stay healthy enough during the later rounds to make an impact.

I mean, I get it. But look at it this way….this is Connor McDavid…and I’m sorry but it should be a great honor and should say a lot about Crosby as to why McDavid is being compared to him.

Now I have my opinions on certain things about Crosby. But you can’t deny his place in history or what he has achieved. It just so happens that there is another “beast” in the “jungle” and he’s coming fast.

 

[GreatGonzo]

14-15 and the first half of 15-16 you can thank Mike Johnston and his ultra defensive style for that. Horrible system that eventually got him fired.

But that's Crosby, he's always team first and bought into the system. Mcdavid and Draisaitl both blow their zone early nearly every possession. They would never accept playing in a defensive system.

Except the entire team took more of a “defensive system” approach this past season while McDavids defensive numbers were solid. The oilers PK was awesome during the playoffs as well…

except the 2016 team was one of the best offensive teams that year they got plenty of shots and plenty of offense ran through that team. Let’s not talk like Crosby “bought in” to anything.

I actually think Crosby is more like LeBron and Mcdavid more like Jordan (minus all the championships of course). Jordan is the flasher player and has 10 scoring titles and LeBron has 1, but they're considered comparable players. LeBron has a more versatile game and his longevity is unmatched.

But of course championships are required to be in the conversation.

That’s interesting considering that Jordan was known for his defensive play too and was first team All Defense I think 9 times and won defensive player of the year….all while being the scoring champ.

Lebron is more known as a better facilitator and rebounder while also being a scoring threat.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

They had some good runs and unfortunately ran into the last 3 cup winners. Definitely not the best of luck, but I wouldn’t compare these Oilers teams to those Detroit or Colorado teams. The Oilers defense and goaltending have continued to be suspect, all while Draisaitl can’t seem to stay healthy enough during the later rounds to make an impact.

I mean, I get it. But look at it this way….this is Connor McDavid…and I’m sorry but it should be a great honor and should say a lot about Crosby as to why McDavid is being compared to him.

Now I have my opinions on certain things about Crosby. But you can’t deny his place in history or what he has achieved. It just so happens that there is another “beast” in the “jungle” and he’s coming fast.

oh im not comparing them to any of those teams but just saying Oilers had some pretty decent teams too. I know people like to rip on them for not being the best team but I mean. they did better than most expectations. most players get hurt in the playoffs just depends if its something that can be played through or not.

I got no problem of McDavid being compared to Crosby either. I mean Crosby is prob the king of the 2010s and McDavid is the king of the 2020's so far atleast.

McDavid keeps putting up numbers like he just did and this will just get harder and harder. soon enough McDavid at this rate will overstep ALOT of players including Crosby. where I honestly think things will change and he seriously oversteps Crosby will be the 2026 Olympics.

I honestly dont care who is better than the other. Im just enjoying watching him when I can atleast.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

14-15 and the first half of 15-16 you can thank Mike Johnston and his ultra defensive style for that. Horrible system that eventually got him fired.

But that's Crosby, he's always team first and bought into the system. Mcdavid and Draisaitl both blow their zone early nearly every possession. They would never accept playing in a defensive system.

Crosby does whatever it takes to win. It isn't even too far-fetched to say McDavid has been stat padding so far. That is why I refuse to put him in different tier from Crosby.

 

[Fourier]

These takes that McDavid is just out to pad his stats but Crosby will do whatever it takes to win are ridiculous. Both guys are absolutely driven to win. McDavid has turned into a fantastic leader. He has fully bought into Knoblauch's system and is as good defensively right now as Crosby was at the same age. I really wonder if many of the people on this thread actually watch the guy play or is this thread all about reinforcing stereotypes and myths?

Over 25 games in this year's playoffs playing against the oppositions best McDavid was on the ice for 1.93 GA/60 5 vs 5. When he was not on the ice the Oilers gave up 2.89 GA/60. Yet somehow he is a liability? (He was also on the ice for 3.87GF/60 vs 1.9 while he was off).

In the finals McDavid's 5 vs 5 numbers were 3.8GF/60 1.08GA/60. With him off the ice the numbers were 2.06GF/60 vs 3.53GA/60.

In the 2016 playoffs Crosby was on the ice for 2.92 GA/60 and while he was off the ice the Pens gave up 1.76GA/60. (He was also on the ice for 2.59 GF/60 vs 2.5 while he was off).

In the 2017 playoffs Crosby was on the ice for 2.78 GA/60 and while he was off the ice the Pens gave up 1.85 GA/60. (He was also on the ice for 2.94 GF/60 vs 2.19 while he was off).

I'd like to hear an explanation as to how Crosby was doing everything to win but McDavid was out for himself???

 

[Frank Drebin]

14-15 and the first half of 15-16 you can thank Mike Johnston and his ultra defensive style for that. Horrible system that eventually got him fired.

But that's Crosby, he's always team first and bought into the system. Mcdavid and Draisaitl both blow their zone early nearly every possession. They would never accept playing in a defensive system.

Crosby, the born winner, played in a system imposed by a coach that hurt his team and didn't do anything about it?

Almost like winning and losing are beyond the control of a single player

 

[GreatGonzo]

Crosby does whatever it takes to win. It isn't even too far-fetched to say McDavid has been stat padding so far. That is why I refuse to put him in different tier from Crosby.

How has McDavid been stat padding?

 

[Midnight Judges]

I'd like to hear an explanation as to how Crosby was doing everything to win but McDavid was out for himself???

Easy: They can say it because most people aren't going to look at the actual facts like you just did.

 

[wetcoast]

These takes that McDavid is just out to pad his stats but Crosby will do whatever it takes to win are ridiculous. Both guys are absolutely driven to win. McDavid has turned into a fantastic leader. He has fully bought into Knoblauch's system and is as good defensively right now as Crosby was at the same age. I really wonder if many of the people on this thread actually watch the guy play or is this thread all about reinforcing stereotypes and myths?

Over 25 games in this year's playoffs playing against the oppositions best McDavid was on the ice for 1.93 GA/60 5 vs 5. When he was not on the ice the Oilers gave up 2.89 GA/60. Yet somehow he is a liability? (He was also on the ice for 3.87GF/60 vs 1.9 while he was off).

In the finals McDavid's 5 vs 5 numbers were 3.8GF/60 1.08GA/60. With him off the ice the numbers were 2.06GF/60 vs 3.53GA/60.

In the 2016 playoffs Crosby was on the ice for 2.92 GA/60 and while he was off the ice the Pens gave up 1.76GA/60. (He was also on the ice for 2.59 GF/60 vs 2.5 while he was off).

In the 2017 playoffs Crosby was on the ice for 2.78 GA/60 and while he was off the ice the Pens gave up 1.85 GA/60. (He was also on the ice for 2.94 GF/60 vs 2.19 while he was off).

I'd like to hear an explanation as to how Crosby was doing everything to win but McDavid was out for himself???

The barrage of stats is great and no one is disputing that McDavid has been the better offensive player in the playoffs but at least do a deeper dive here and show team amtes TOI as well.

McDavid had much better linemates on the ice as well. 23024 than Crosby 15-16 and it's not even close.

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/playerreport.php?fromseason=20232024&thruseason=20232024&stype=3&sit=5v5&stdoi=std&rate=n&v=t&playerid=8478402

TOI of McDavid's linemates 23-24 top 5

Hyman 368
Bouchard 347
Ekholm 318
RNH 171
Draisatl 121

Sidney Crosby - Teammates - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick

TOI of Crosby's linemates 15-16 top 5

Hornquist 310
Sheary 234
Letang 220
Dumoulin 165
Cole 83

16-17 Crosby

Guentzal 284
Sheary 171
Maatta 137
Dumoulin 120
Schultz 119

Sidney Crosby - Teammates - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick

16-17 for Crosby is a bit better but still pales to 23-24 McDavid and even the McDavid supporters here would agree to that right?

 

[bambamcam4ever]

The barrage of stats is great and no one is disputing that McDavid has been the better offensive player in the playoffs but at least do a deeper dive here and show team amtes TOI as well.

McDavid had much better linemates on the ice as well. 23024 than Crosby 15-16 and it's not even close.

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/playerreport.php?fromseason=20232024&thruseason=20232024&stype=3&sit=5v5&stdoi=std&rate=n&v=t&playerid=8478402

TOI of McDavid's linemates 23-24 top 5

Hyman 368
Bouchard 347
Ekholm 318
RNH 171
Draisatl 121

Sidney Crosby - Teammates - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick

TOI of Crosby's linemates 15-16 top 5

Hornquist 310
Sheary 234
Letang 220
Dumoulin 165
Cole 83

16-17 Crosby

Guentzal 284
Sheary 171
Maatta 137
Dumoulin 120
Schultz 119

Sidney Crosby - Teammates - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick

16-17 for Crosby is a bit better but still pales to 23-24 McDavid and even the McDavid supporters here would agree to that right?

Assigning team GA to one player when there are 6 players on the ice is a bit odd. Especially when Sheary is historically ineffective in the playoffs.

 

[crowfish]

There is no reasoning with the people who go with the "born winner" argument lol.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

There is no reasoning with the people who go with the "born winner" argument lol.

I don't think anyone claimed that, that was just the Oilers' fan defense from McDavid being described as a born loser. Which I think is unfair, he developed a stat padding play style over time.

 

[crowfish]

I don't think anyone claimed that, that was just the Oilers' fan defense from McDavid being described as a born loser. Which I think is unfair, he developed a stat padding play style over time.

He is the 3rd best stat padder in NHL history, just behind Wayne and Mario.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don't think anyone claimed that, that was just the Oilers' fan defense from McDavid being described as a born loser. Which I think is unfair, he developed a stat padding play style over time.

I think both sides have a tendency to put their heads in the sand in this debate. I don't agree that McDavid's style is about stat padding. I think he can "win" with how he plays, as seen by him being 1 goal away from doing so this year.

On the flip side, I also think the McDavid side seems to want to refuse to acknowledge that McDavid's linemates have been superior to Crosby's and that will have some (emphasis on some, not all before people cry about this) impact on production, as well as the idea that this year's Oilers team is somehow inferior to all the Penguins teams that won Cups.

The Oilers didn't lose because McDavid plays the "wrong" way, but they also didn't lose because they're an inferior team to what Crosby had. They lost because Florida got one more "bounce" go their way while the 2009 Pens were the recipients of a "weak" goal. Reverse those bounces and does that suddenly mean the 2009 Pens weren't good enough to win a Cup?

In any case, I find this thread tiring because it seems like there's a tendency (from both sides) to acknowledge factors outside a player's control can affect certain things (production, winning, performance) and simply cover their ears with "nope, just excuses!". You can't have an open debate about this because people are too interested in personal insults and "lol you're just making excuses" type responses than actual respectful discourse.

 

[norrisnick]

I love the "McDavid had better linemates" argument just a mere pages after "Crosby makes his teammates better" argument. Shouldn't the quality of teammates not matter if one guy can make chicken soup out of chicken shit? Or are we conceding the earlier argument as bullshit?

 

[Frank Drebin]

I think both sides have a tendency to put their heads in the sand in this debate. I don't agree that McDavid's style is about stat padding. I think he can "win" with how he plays, as seen by him being 1 goal away from doing so this year.

On the flip side, I also think the McDavid side seems to want to refuse to acknowledge that McDavid's linemates have been superior to Crosby's and that will have some (emphasis on some, not all before people cry about this) impact on production, as well as the idea that this year's Oilers team is somehow inferior to all the Penguins teams that won Cups.

The Oilers didn't lose because McDavid plays the "wrong" way, but they also didn't lose because they're an inferior team to what Crosby had. They lost because Florida got one more "bounce" go their way while the 2009 Pens were the recipients of a "weak" goal. Reverse those bounces and does that suddenly mean the 2009 Pens weren't good enough to win a Cup?

In any case, I find this thread tiring because it seems like there's a tendency (from both sides) to acknowledge factors outside a player's control can affect certain things (production, winning, performance) and simply cover their ears with "nope, just excuses!". You can't have an open debate about this because people are too interested in personal insults and "lol you're just making excuses" type responses than actual respectful discourse.

The argument that mcdavid isn’t as good because he hasn’t won a cup yet makes no sense to me .

The posters that say that imply that there is something wrong with mcdavid in that a team can’t win the cup with the style that he plays.

But we can all agree that there have been inferior centers that have won a cup

Players like
Jack eichel
Ryan oreilly
Nick backstrom
Jonathan toews
Anze kopitar
David krejci

So are we really going to try and stick with the notion that all of these players play a “more effective “ game in the playoffs and that’s why they have a cup (or 3) while mcdavid doesn’t?

Or can we acknowledge that the reason why the above players have a cup while mcdavid doesn’t is because they played for teams that were better constructed to win, their teams simply got hot at the right times and had the required good fortune to win it all

So I think most reasonable fans would agree to the above

So if that logic works for krejci and toews, it certainly works for Crosby as well, yes?

 

[Golden_Jet]

The barrage of stats is great and no one is disputing that McDavid has been the better offensive player in the playoffs but at least do a deeper dive here and show team amtes TOI as well.

McDavid had much better linemates on the ice as well. 23024 than Crosby 15-16 and it's not even close.

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/playerreport.php?fromseason=20232024&thruseason=20232024&stype=3&sit=5v5&stdoi=std&rate=n&v=t&playerid=8478402

TOI of McDavid's linemates 23-24 top 5

Hyman 368
Bouchard 347
Ekholm 318
RNH 171
Draisatl 121

Sidney Crosby - Teammates - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick

TOI of Crosby's linemates 15-16 top 5

Hornquist 310
Sheary 234
Letang 220
Dumoulin 165
Cole 83

16-17 Crosby

Guentzal 284
Sheary 171
Maatta 137
Dumoulin 120
Schultz 119

Sidney Crosby - Teammates - On Ice - Natural Stat Trick

16-17 for Crosby is a bit better but still pales to 23-24 McDavid and even the McDavid supporters here would agree to that right?

It’s a known fact, Crosby is a hard player to play with, had the same issue in international play. It’s hard to find players to gel with him for some reason.

Hossa probably being the exception, but he was a better defensive player than Sid.

 

[wetcoast]

It’s a known fact, Crosby is a hard player to play with, had the same issue in international play. It’s hard to find players to gel with him for some reason.

Better watch out the fact police from McDavids side are going to jump all over you..........

That being said it's been pointed out that one player has better team mates on the ice than the other, anyone arguing otherwise is out to lunch.

The whole this argument can't be used because a couple of people made another argument distraction is just that a distraction.

Hossa probably being the exception, but he was a better defensive player than Sid.

Hossa was right in his prime at age 29 and Crosby was 20 for 12 regular season games and 20 playoff games and much of Hossas defensive reputation is from his golden years on the Black Hawks.

 

[Golden_Jet]

much of Hossas defensive reputation is from his golden years on the Black Hawks.

lol, ask Crosby what he thought, he was Pens best defensive forward on the Pens.
Crosby raved about him, and begged him to stay.

His defensive reputation started in Ottawa, he credits Jacques Martin for that.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Better watch out the fact police from McDavids side are going to jump all over you..........

That being said it's been pointed out that one player has better team mates on the ice than the other, anyone arguing otherwise is out to lunch.

The whole this argument can't be used because a couple of people made another argument distraction is just that a distraction.


Hossa was right in his prime at age 29 and Crosby was 20 for 12 regular season games and 20 playoff games and much of Hossas defensive reputation is from his golden years on the Black Hawks.

Hossa and Crosby only played 4 RS games together

The argument that mcdavid isn’t as good because he hasn’t won a cup yet makes no sense to me .

The posters that say that imply that there is something wrong with mcdavid in that a team can’t win the cup with the style that he plays.

But we can all agree that there have been inferior centers that have won a cup

Players like
Jack eichel
Ryan oreilly
Nick backstrom
Jonathan toews
Anze kopitar
David krejci

So are we really going to try and stick with the notion that all of these players play a “more effective “ game in the playoffs and that’s why they have a cup (or 3) while mcdavid doesn’t?

Or can we acknowledge that the reason why the above players have a cup while mcdavid doesn’t is because they played for teams that were better constructed to win, their teams simply got hot at the right times and had the required good fortune to win it all

So I think most reasonable fans would agree to the above

So if that logic works for krejci and toews, it certainly works for Crosby as well, yes?

Eichel did easily outplay McDavid head to head