Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[GreatGonzo]

Even Gretzky couldn't win a Cup in St. Louis lol.

And Crosby didn't win consecutive Cups.

And McDavid... well... he's seen what the Cup looks like lol. And his legendary stats sure as hell didn't help win him one, whether he deserved it or not lol.

The fact that Pat Maroon annoys people, pleases me. The fact he's one of the Blues to finally do the impossible and hoist the Cup is a time I will never forget and he contributed in his own way and a trash goal against Dallas that got the ball rolling.

Crosby did win consecutive cups…

Pat Maroons final stats:
2019: 7-0-0-0 -5
2020: 6-0-2-2 -2
2021: 5-1-0-1 +2
2022: 6-1-1-2 0

Yes because Maroons stats were so helpful when it came to the finals and helping his team win

McDavid literally has more assists in one final run than Maroon does points in all four of his runs.

 

[pi314]

Cups are team awards, there is no getting around it.

Gretzky won zero cups without an all-time stacked lineup. Put him on a lesser team for his whole career and he most likely retires without one, still would be the same exact player though.

Yeah okay

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Draisaitl and McDavid are top 4 all time in playoff ppg. Either they have been unbelievably unlucky to not have win a championship in 9 years or their impact does not match up with their point totals.

 

[Video Nasty]

Draisaitl and McDavid are top 4 all time in playoff ppg. Either they have been unbelievably unlucky to not have win a championship in 9 years or their impact does not match up with their point totals.

It’s okay to list McDavid first since he’s 3rd in PPG.

Save this snide disbelief for if they take a step back this season. The Oilers just lost in Game 7 to a team that had 122 points two seasons ago and made the SCF the year prior, so your comment makes little sense. Oilers are trending up and 2024-2025 is the season they seal the deal.

 

[norrisnick]

Draisaitl and McDavid are top 4 all time in playoff ppg. Either they have been unbelievably unlucky to not have win a championship in 9 years or their impact does not match up with their point totals.

Or their team construction has been mediocre at best and if it doesn't happen while they are in the ice, it just doesn't happen. They can only somewhat control what happens when they are on the ice. And over the last three playoffs McDavid has the best goal differential in the league. Sneaking the far leakier Draisaitl into the equation as some sort of gotcha doesn't change that. Leon isn't McDavid.

 

[wetcoast]

Except a WIDE majority of posters on this site have Crosby ahead because McDavid doesn’t have A cup. It’s the one difference, the one thing Crosby has that McDavid doesn’t have. The one that has been defining his “leadership” and abilities as a player for many.

To say it wouldn’t make a difference is absolutely ludicrous and you know it.

Maybe it's the one difference for you and sure some guys taking Crosby Soley because of the SCs is a puzzling take but then again you are the counterbalance on that seesaw.

For me the big difference is 19 to 9 as in years of elite play.

Also it wouldn't make a difference to me and that's why I pointed it out as I don't speak for other people.

Some people like the poster I was responding to was talking about Stains on Crosby's resume when he finished 3rd in scoring which IMO is ridiculous.the seperation between stain and elite is alot more than a handful of points in a season.

I said the same thing about Ovechkin and I don't think that McDavid needs a SC to pass Crosby all time depending what else happens in the future.

Individual performance matters and diddo for playoff performance as well and it's not only counting stats.

 

[wetcoast]

Not to mention it's disingenuous AF to sprinkle around 20 whatever points as if that wouldn't also boost everyone else. Or disregarding that 20 strategic points in the other direction and presto Crosby has zero scoring titles and no Harts.

Just stick with what actually happened.

As usual you starting posting before reading the post, carry on you got the high fives from the bros.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

So Hyman scores a hat trick in game 7 and wins the stanley cup ,McDavid has 0 points, this means McDavid magically becomes a better hockey player than he was in game 6 , do you agree with this statement?



Are we even still comparing who the better hockey player is or just who won more cups. Because who the better hockey player compared to his peers historically is already McDavid.



28 years old and he's already surpassed him....

it doesnt matter if you have 1, 2 or 10 Cups. but if u wanna be in the same tier or ranked above the all time greats. you need to atleast win a single cup. and no him not scoring in Game 7 doesnt just make him worse than Hyman or others. he just hasn't earned the right to overstep Crosby yet. its that simple. zero cups, and less points.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Well like you said, that’s your opinion. Whether he’s currently right behind Crosby, on Crosbys “tier” or ahead….hes there regardless if you like it or not.

They do? How so? Last time I checked, Lebron has been widely considered the GOAT since breaking the overall points record. Not that I agree with that..

He did? Name them…

done talking to you about Crosby vs McDavid we aren't going to agree

and pretty simple you both want your player to be the goat without actually earning it. there's plenty of reasons why LeBron will never pass MJ or others on an all-time list. pretty much the biggest community of people who think he's over MJ are kids who dont know anything.
and that's whats happening with McDavid. want to be the best without earning it first

 

[GreatGonzo]

Draisaitl and McDavid are top 4 all time in playoff ppg. Either they have been unbelievably unlucky to not have win a championship in 9 years or their impact does not match up with their point totals.

It’s really that simple, right? Tell me you don’t know how hockey works without telling me you don’t know how hockey works.

Maybe it's the one difference for you and sure some guys taking Crosby Soley because of the SCs is a puzzling take but then again you are the counterbalance on that seesaw.

For me the big difference is 19 to 9 as in years of elite play.

Also it wouldn't make a difference to me and that's why I pointed it out as I don't speak for other people.

Some people like the poster I was responding to was talking about Stains on Crosby's resume when he finished 3rd in scoring which IMO is ridiculous.the seperation between stain and elite is alot more than a handful of points in a season.

I said the same thing about Ovechkin and I don't think that McDavid needs a SC to pass Crosby all time depending what else happens in the future.

Individual performance matters and diddo for playoff performance as well and it's not only counting stats.

Again, it’s the one thing people bring up and the one thing used against him. It would have made a huge difference. Posters like you would simply find ways to discredit it.

done talking to you about Crosby vs McDavid we aren't going to agree

and pretty simple you both want your player to be the goat without actually earning it. there's plenty of reasons why LeBron will never pass MJ or others on an all-time list. pretty much the biggest community of people who think he's over MJ are kids who dont know anything.
and that's whats happening with McDavid. want to be the best without earning it first

You must not watch a lot of basketball because it’s actually very much argued and talked about(lebron being the GOAT) in the media and overall community.

“Earning it” is entirely subjective. Funny enough,
McDavid would have “earned” a cup if he had more help like Crosby did.

 

[norrisnick]

As usual you starting posting before reading the post, carry on you got the high fives from the bros.

Disingenuous AF.

 

[tucker3434]

I would’ve liked to see what Crosby could do if he was 10 years younger with current scoring. In Crosby’s prime, putting up 100-110 gave you a shot at the Art Ross. Now you’ve got guys like JT Miller doing it. He probably still doesn’t match McDavid’s 153 season, but who knows.

I think it’s close. I’d give McDavid the edge on individual talent, but prime Crosby is probably who I’d choose to build around. Because of… intangibles? Argument is going the other way now I guess.

 

[Xspyrit]

how do you bump out the greats without passing them in points or winning a cup when all the greats have won? it makes no sense. McDavid is an incredible player but his career is still very young.

You know who else has not won a Cup? (we'll only talk about the NHL since it would take days to list people in all sports)

Joe Thornton
Marcel Dionne
Jarome Iginla
Adam Oates
Daniel Alfredsson
Mats Sundin
Dale Hawerchuk
Mike Gartner
Roberto Luongo
Peter Stastny
Pierre Turgeon
Gilbert Perreault
Pavel Bure
Carey Price
Henrik Lundqvist
Eric Lindros
Paul Kariya
Daniel & Henrik Sedin
Pekka Rinne
Dino Ciccarelli
Brad Park
Jeremy Roenick
Joe Pavelski
Cam Neely
Etc

And so many great active players who have not won yet. Ray Bourque was 40 y/o and in his last year when he won. McDavid was a game away from a Cup just a few weeks ago

You could have realized what follows by yourself but I'll give you a pass. Winning the Stanley Cup is something that will become even more rare now that there is 32 teams (and maybe even more coming). The Stanley Cup became really hard to win. Of course, all the greats were winning it when there was 6, 12 or 16 teams. Now, not only you need to be good but you also have to be at the right place at the right time.

 

[DitchMarner]

I will absolutely stand by the fact that McDavid's playoff stats are stronger than Crosby.

I will also stand by the fact that Crosby has 2 Conn Smythes and both Cups to match.

Crosby doesn't have to be 'like' McDavid to be considered an equal tiered player. If stats were everything and the only thing, where is McDavid's Cup?

The only time it would matter is if they were playing each other and I have yet to see anyone pull up stats for that, possibly out of fear,

Here are their head-to-head stats (13 games):

Connor McDavid: 9 goals, 18 assists, 27 points, +15, 19 EVP, 57 shots, 21:40 ATOI

Sidney Crosby: 3 goals, 4 assists, 7 points, -12, 5 EVP, 39 shots, 20:24 ATOI

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

You know who else has not won a Cup? (we'll only talk about the NHL since it would take days to list people in all sports)

Joe Thornton
Marcel Dionne
Jarome Iginla
Adam Oates
Daniel Alfredsson
Mats Sundin
Dale Hawerchuk
Mike Gartner
Roberto Luongo
Peter Stastny
Pierre Turgeon
Gilbert Perreault
Pavel Bure
Carey Price
Henrik Lundqvist
Eric Lindros
Paul Kariya
Daniel & Henrik Sedin
Pekka Rinne
Dino Ciccarelli
Brad Park
Jeremy Roenick
Joe Pavelski
Cam Neely
Etc

Every single name on your list was criticized for not winning a cup. Especially those sharks players that recently retired.

And so many great active players who have not won yet.

And they will be considered less great if they don't win it all.

Ray Bourque was 40 y/o and in his last year when he won.

He was in his last year because he won. If he didn't win he surely would have signed up for chasing another. I think bringing up a top 3 defenseman of all time that spent his entire career with one team and left to chase a cup in his last couple years does the opposite for your point.

McDavid was a game away from a Cup just a few weeks ago

Close, but no cigar.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Here are their head-to-head stats (13 games):

Connor McDavid: 9 goals, 18 assists, 27 points, +15, 19 EVP, 57 shots, 21:40 ATOI

Sidney Crosby: 3 goals, 4 assists, 7 points, -12, 5 EVP, 39 shots, 20:24 ATOI

Wow, it’s not even close

 

[DitchMarner]

Wow, it’s not even close

The first time I heard it, I couldn't believe it.

One guy has triple the goals and almost quadruple the points. His plus/minus is also 27 points better.

That poster said the only time stats would matter is if they went head-to-head. I wonder if he still thinks that.

 

[PainForShane]

And so many great active players who have not won yet. Ray Bourque was 40 y/o and in his last year when he won. McDavid was a game away from a Cup just a few weeks ago

You could have realized what follows by yourself but I'll give you a pass. Winning the Stanley Cup is something that will become even more rare now that there is 32 teams (and maybe even more coming). The Stanley Cup became really hard to win. Of course, all the greats were winning it when there was 6, 12 or 16 teams. Now, not only you need to be good but you also have to be at the right place at the right time.

Are you really arguing that Sidney Crosby's cups weren't as valuable as they would be today because there were 16 teams in the NHL in 2009, 2016, and 2017?

That's a new one. You definitely deserve points for creativity, that much is certain. Keep in mind we're in a Crosby / McDavid thread, no one is comparing either of these guys to whoever played in the original 6 era (except for you apparently)

 

[Frank Drebin]

I never had Toews or Kopitar on anything. I never said anything of the sort, either.

You like coming up with extreme criteria to try and pass along your agenda, huh?

I'm many things, but at least I'm consistent. I put Crosby over McDavid until further notice and you're just going to have to figure out how to live with it. Life is all YMMV and that's how mine varies on this .

Yeah it’s all good

You’re at the point where you can’t really defend or explain your position, you’re basically saying “that’s how I feel and nothing is going to change my mind”

At least you’re being respectful

 

[pi314]

Draisaitl and McDavid are top 4 all time in playoff ppg. Either they have been unbelievably unlucky to not have win a championship in 9 years or their impact does not match up with their point totals.

If you’ve never played hockey, it’s the easiest thing to trick fans with.

You cherry pick your ass off.

Games go from 3-2 to 6-5.

Everyone puts up better stats except the goalie.

In the end, blame defense and goaltending.

I’ve actually talked to an NHL player about it. They know fans don’t know better and just get paid for their stats.

Sometimes a bonus difference from 19 goals to 20 is huge.

There are lots of little things a player can do to artificially pad their stats within a season.

You don’t fake winning so easily.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

It can certainly be criticized, but that doesn't change the talent level of the players. The importance of that criticism used to have more weight, less and less now. You have to keep up and evolve with the times.

Most of those players fell short in the biggest moments, and no surprise, lots of players from canadian teams and the sharks. You can't wipe off the losing stain from most of those players, and the fact that most of them fell short is what elevated those that beat them and are considered winners because of it.

Saying "winning a cup is the only one that matters" (the initial and ONLY point I was arguing) is **** **.

Nobody ever said that.

ok lmk when you have less "captain obvious" stuff.

Okay?

It does? Are you sure? What if my point went completely over your head? Judging by the intelligence level around these parts, it's very possible.

Is this what you say when you don't have a proper retort?

Damn... Sorry if I am yawning.

More like deflecting. Or maybe its the participation trophy era you were brought up in that causes one to think that Joe Thornton not winning a Stanley Cup doesn't matter.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Are you really arguing that Sidney Crosby's cups weren't as valuable as they would be today because there were 16 teams in the NHL in 2009, 2016, and 2017?

That's a new one. You definitely deserve points for creativity, that much is certain. Keep in mind we're in a Crosby / McDavid thread, no one is comparing either of these guys to whoever played in the original 6 era (except for you apparently)

Why would he be talking about Crosby? There were 30 teams in the league in 2009, 206-17…not 16….

If you’ve never played hockey, it’s the easiest thing to trick fans with.

You cherry pick your ass off.

Games go from 3-2 to 6-5.

Everyone puts up better stats except the goalie.

In the end, blame defense and goaltending.

I’ve actually talked to an NHL player about it. They know fans don’t know better and just get paid for their stats.

Sometimes a bonus difference from 19 goals to 20 is huge.

There are lots of little things a player can do to artificially pad their stats within a season.

You don’t fake winning so easily.

so basically, everything you have been doing?…



Which excuse are you going to use for Crosby not showing up in ‘09?

Most of those players fell short in the biggest moments, and no surprise, lots of players from canadian teams and the sharks. You can't wipe off the losing stain from most of those players, and the fact that most of them fell short is what elevated those that beat them and are considered winners because of it.

Nobody ever said that.

Okay?

Is this what you say when you don't have a proper retort?

More like deflecting. Or maybe it’s the participation trophy era you were brought up in that causes one to think that Joe Thornton not winning a Stanley Cup doesn't matter.

A lot of those players also didn’t play in very good teams…or were good playoff performers but didn’t have the support to win or make a deep run. It’s not as black and white as you want it to be..

Why do some like to use the “participation award” trophy argument?

What awards in the NHL are “participation awards?” And how are we in that “era” of the league?.

 

[GreatGonzo]

He was in his last year because he won. If he didn't win he surely would have signed up for chasing another. I think bringing up a top 3 defenseman of all time that spent his entire career with one team and left to chase a cup in his last couple years does the opposite for your point.

I don’t understand, what was wrong with him going off and chasing a cup at the age he was? It’s not like he was a passenger at that point of his career. It’s not like he rode the bench and played in a few games.

 

[Fourier]

If you’ve never played hockey, it’s the easiest thing to trick fans with.

You cherry pick your ass off.

Games go from 3-2 to 6-5.

Everyone puts up better stats except the goalie.

In the end, blame defense and goaltending.

I’ve actually talked to an NHL player about it. They know fans don’t know better and just get paid for their stats.

Sometimes a bonus difference from 19 goals to 20 is huge.

There are lots of little things a player can do to artificially pad their stats within a season.

You don’t fake winning so easily.

The post you responded to was about playoffs. I think your math needs some checking. The average goals per game in the playoffs:

2008-2009 5.48
2015-2016 5.26
2023-2024 5.73

The biggest gap here is ,47 g/gm or .235 g/gm more per team. For the Oilers that means roughly 6 more goals over the course of the playoffs over the 2008-2009 rate and all of 3 goals over the 2015-2016 rate.

But here's the thing, a very high scoring team can actually skew things to a degree Now lets take the Oilers out of the calculation from 2023-24. That number drops to 5.53. So with the Oilers excluded the gap becomes .035 g/gm per team in 2023-24 over 2008-2009 and .135g/gm over the 2015-2016 rate.

If you are going to trumpet adjusted stats at least show some modicum of understanding of their impact and flaws.

 

[BlueSeal]

Yeah it’s all good

You’re at the point where you can’t really defend or explain your position, you’re basically saying “that’s how I feel and nothing is going to change my mind”

At least you’re being respectful

That's been my point the whole time, yet you continuously want to argue with me.

It's simply my opinion and point of view. No one's in the locker room with these folks so all any of us can do beyond Stat-culate is spitball at a wall and see what sticks.

Right back atcha. I don't agree with you, but I respect ya.