Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[tabness]

Crosby in wins 2005-2006 to 2014-2015: 345 games 221 goals 409 assists 630 points +295
McDavid in wins 2015-2016 to 2023-2024: 349 games 249 goals 450 assists 699 points +382

Crosby playoff wins 2005-2006 to 2009-2010: 38 games 21 goals 39 assists 60 points +27
Crosby playoff wins 2005-2006 to 2014-2015: 55 games 30 goals 54 assists 84 points +34
Crosby playoff wins career: 98 games 51 goals 95 assists 146 points +69
McDavid playoff wins career: 37 games 19 goals 53 assists 72 points +49

presented without comment
bring on the takes

 

[GreatGonzo]

No, that's not the point I made.

Let's try this a different way.

I said "McDavid actually DID underperform in arguably every meaningful game in this year's SCF.” I meant what I said.

What do you think I was referring to when I said, "meaningful game"?

This is not a trick question.

Ok….how? I would LOVE to know in this world, how 3 points in 7 games ISNT underperforming while 11 points is…

That’s a good question, what do you call “meaningful games.” Because you say games 4 and 5 weren’t meaningful….yet they were elimination games?…

 

[Xspyrit]

I’ve been watching since Gretzky days and as good as Crosby has been the only person I’ve ever seen who belongs in the Gretzky/Mario conversation is Mcdavid. He’s the best player I’ve seen since Mario. I don’t particularly like him, but there’s no doubt about it when I watch him play.

This is why I don’t understand why this thread has 54 pages…

Younger people who love Crosby to death hanging on for dear life?

 

[PainForShane]

Ok….how? I would LOVE to know in this world, how 3 points in 7 games ISNT underperforming while 11 points is…

That’s a good question, what do you call “meaningful games.” Because you say games 4 and 5 weren’t meaningful….yet they were elimination games?…

It's not a good question, the answer should be very obvious.

Do you have an answer as to what I meant when I was referring to 'meaningful games'?

It seems like you don't.

 

[GreatGonzo]

It's not a good question, the answer should be very obvious.

Do you have an answer as to what I meant when I was referring to 'meaningful games'?

It seems like you don't.

Its so obvious yet you can’t and refuse to answer said questions

Last time I checked, elimination games are “meaningful” games. But because McDavid scored a lot of his points within those games, they suddenly don’t mean anything…but Crosbys games 3 and 4….the most meaningful games of the series?

 

[PainForShane]

Its so obvious yet you can’t and refuse to answer said questions

Last time I checked, elimination games are “meaningful” games. But because McDavid scored a lot of his points within those games, they suddenly don’t mean anything…but Crosbys games 3 and 4….the most meaningful games of the series?

That's not what I meant when I was referring to meaningful games. You can try again if you want. I honestly don't care.

And yes, the answer to the question of 'what is a meaningful game' is quite 'obvious' (as is this explanation of this particular argument) but you seem to be unable to grasp it.

Again, this says more about your abilities to understand a basic argument than it does about anything or anyone else.

 

[wetcoast]

I wonder when @norrisnick is going to jump in to add some extra context to this discussion by pointing out how great of a job his Detroit darlings did by shutting down the opposite team’s best offensive weapons, in this case Crosby, who was playing alongside the ghost of Chris Kunitz (1G in 24GP) and the corpse of Billy Guerin in the 2009 Finals. Surely, it has nothing to do with Norris Nick himself or the great Henrik Zetterberg being stuck to Crosby all series long and by putting up a defensive clinic to make sure Crosby was not producing in the finals..

Or does all this Detroit players glazing/bias takes only apply when Crosby is not involved? I think I know the answer.

Detroit obviously lost that series by trying to shutdown the wrong player in Crosby when they should have used all their attentions on Talbot

 

[PainForShane]

Detroit obviously lost that series by trying to shutdown the wrong player in Crosby when they should have used all their attentions on Talbot

That's hilarious.

Glad you got some sleep since I saw you in last thread

 

[GreatGonzo]

That's not what I meant when I was referring to meaningful games. You can try again if you want. I honestly don't care.

….do you even know what your arguing anymore?

“I don’t care.” Cool, in other words, you can’t argue your own points without sounding silly. That’s fine.

Detroit obviously lost that series by trying to shutdown the wrong player in Crosby when they should have used all their attentions on Talbot

If McDavid put up 3 points in 7 games, you wouldn’t bring up Barkov being the best defensive forward, or their goaltending being Vezina caliber….you would be one of the first to slam McDavid for not “showing up.”

 

[PainForShane]

….do you even know what your arguing anymore?

“I don’t care.” Cool, in other words, you can’t argue your own points without sounding silly. That’s fine.

If McDavid put up 3 points in 7 games, you wouldn’t bring up Barkov being the best defensive forward, or their goaltending being Vezina caliber….you would be one of the first to slam McDavid for not “showing up.”

Yes, I do. And by saying "I don't care" I was referring to your ability to understand a basic argument, not whatever nonsense you just claimed in the post I quoted above.

The meaning was obvious to everyone, and should have been obvious to you as well.

 

[wetcoast]

….do you even know what your arguing anymore?

“I don’t care.” Cool, in other words, you can’t argue your own points without sounding silly. That’s fine.

If McDavid put up 3 points in 7 games, you wouldn’t bring up Barkov being the best defensive forward, or their goaltending being Vezina caliber….you would be one of the first to slam McDavid for not “showing up.”

The irony that you are putting forward something that didn't happen.

For the record I was on the record here that McDavid was the frontrunner for the Smythe quite early this year as I'm a big picture and consistent in my analysis and views.

The only reasons to put McDavid on a different tier is if they have 50 tiers for their top 100 or something.

Each player has their strengths and weaknesses on their resumes and I think that McDavid could pass Crosby who is my 4/5th player all time (Mario is a weak link in the Big 4 for me and obviously you probably rank him quite low as well right?)

 

[GreatGonzo]

Yes, I do. And by saying "I don't care" I was referring to your ability to understand a basic argument, not whatever nonsense you just claimed in the post I quoted above.

This is obvious to everyone, and should have been obvious to you as well.

In other words, “I have no argument.” Cool.

oh boy are you in for a surprise

Still waiting on what makes a games “meaningful” because it seems like when it’s the games Crosby scored in, they are suddenly more valuable….but the games McDavid scored earn werent…

 

[ChaosAgent]

Wait context actually matters?

How about being fair-minded and applying it equally or is that only reserved for certain players?

That's the problem here the smorgasbord and selective choosing of context depending on which player is being discussed.

I think that McDavid may eventually pass Crosby all time but he hasn't played those games yet.

But for each guy at the end of the 9 season mark there is no seperation or different tiers between these 2 players.

Disagree if you want but at least try to make a a fair argument about it but sadly some people are so afflicted by dislike for certain players that they apply selective criteria and are inconsistent and intrnagesent and downright condescending in doing so which doesn't make for a healthy discussion.

I think you've brought up some very good points.
What this breakout really shows me is that the 2nd half of Crosby's career is not actually generational. But that the 1st half was as good as what McDavid has accomplished and is only slowed by injuries.

In the 2nd half:
The Penguins won B2B cups and while he got the Smythes, they were very much team victories (1st Smythe could have easily gone to Letang, Kessel or Murray; 2nd Smythe should have been split by Murray/Fleury or could have gone to Malkin). If you start Crosby's career in 2015 it looks a lot more like Joe Sakic's than a Mt. Rushmore player who happens to play in a lower-scoring era. I say Sakic because his teams also won a ton but nowhere is he considered even a top 10 player.

Crosby's PPG through 2014: 1.4
Crosby's PPG since 2014: 1.15 - in a higher scoring era with 3 on 3 OT. That is almost 20% lower.

So I think when folks are assuming McDavid will pass Crosby, they are assuming:
1) He will keep up his pace or maybe drop off by ~10% or so in production, not as much as Crosby did.
2) He will win 1 Cup and he likely will be far and away his team's best player in doing so

McDavid is very capable of passing Crosby, but he has to achieve the above criteria.

 

[GreatGonzo]

The irony that you are putting forward something that didn't happen.

For the record I was on the record here that McDavid was the frontrunner for the Smythe quite early this year as I'm a big picture and consistent in my analysis and views.

The only reasons to put McDavid on a different tier is if they have 50 tiers for their top 100 or something.

Each player has their strengths and weaknesses on their resumes and I think that McDavid could pass Crosby who is my 4/5th player all time (Mario is a weak link in the Big 4 for me and obviously you probably rank him quite low as well right?)

McDavid had 11 points in 7 games with 3 goals and you have been looking for any and every way to discredit him and/or devalue his impact on his team and the games that series….so no, it’s obvious where you would stand if the shoe was on the other foot.

 

[PainForShane]

In other words, “I have no argument.” Cool.

oh boy are you in for a surprise

Still waiting on what makes a games “meaningful” because it seems like when it’s the games Crosby scored in, they are suddenly more valuable….but the games McDavid scored earn werent…

That's not what I said.

And regarding what I think makes a game meaningful? I asked you to give your best guess and you said 'elimination games' which is the wrong answer. You can try again if you want. I don't care if you do (that was what the 'I don't care') was referring to -- again this was obvious to everyone.

 

[wetcoast]

Yes, I do. And by saying "I don't care" I was referring to your ability to understand a basic argument, not whatever nonsense you just claimed in the post I quoted above.

The meaning was obvious to everyone, and should have been obvious to you as well.

It's obvious to most people and probably that poster but he might be confused and unable to actually formulate a coherent argument as he might be suffering from MJ syndrome otherwise known as Crosbyitis.

I unfortunately can't speak for him......

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

This latest post of yours proves you’re grasping for straws and you’re not interested in a normal back and forth.

1. McDavid being in the process of remolding the Big Four into a new Big Five doesn’t mean that I’m trying to put him above Gretzky. You made that up.

You’re trying to put him above Crosby, not Gretzky.

2. Again, who is talking about “getting above him?

You, with Crosby.

3. I responded to your point about Gretzky never finishing 3rd in a Hart race in his prime. Now you’re twisting your own words when I pointed out how you’re wrong to pretend you were talking about the Art Ross race.

Yeah, it was always about scoring. I said 3rd in scoring, an objective measurement.

Just admit you were caught. It should be easy since none of this ultimately matters. If he continues on this course, McDavid will be ranked as high as second all-time when he retires and there’s nothing you can do about it.

I’m not caught. McDavid just hasn’t shown to be as dominant as Gretzky, Lemieux, or Orr. And he looks a lot more like Howe, so he better compile.

 

[norrisnick]

….do you even know what your arguing anymore?

“I don’t care.” Cool, in other words, you can’t argue your own points without sounding silly. That’s fine.

If McDavid put up 3 points in 7 games, you wouldn’t bring up Barkov being the best defensive forward, or their goaltending being Vezina caliber….you would be one of the first to slam McDavid for not “showing up.”

I translated "meaningful" many days ago. And it's as rational is it sounds.

The gist is this... because Edmonton lost game 7 it retroactively converted games 4-6 from meaningful to meaningless as the series was just needlessly extended from what was already "lost" due to falling behind in games 1-3.

 

[wetcoast]

McDavid had 11 points in 7 games with 3 goals and you have been looking for any and every way to discredit him and/or devalue his impact on his team and the games that series….so no, it’s obvious where you would stand if the shoe was on the other foot.

Wait you must be right and all that stuff I actually posted in the McDavid for Smythe thread in the playoff section must have been written by someone who hacked my credentials here eh?

Just another example of you being you.

 

[GreatGonzo]

That's not what I said.

You literally haven’t said anything….

You instead weasel your way out of arguments and play the troll game. It’s quite cute actually

 

[Frank Drebin]

Relevant points and meaningful games

Solid, objective observations

I look forward to revisiting this nonsense

 

[PainForShane]

You literally haven’t said anything….

You instead weasel your way out of arguments and play the troll game. It’s quite cute actually

I certainly haven't said much, if anything, that you actually understand. That much seems to be true.

 

[Golden_Jet]

It's obvious to most people and probably that poster but he might be confused and unable to actually formulate a coherent argument as he might be suffering from MJ syndrome otherwise known as Crosbyitis.

I unfortunately can't speak for him......

Yes it’s obvious
EVERY game in the Stanley cup finals is meaningful, until you win or lose the series.
The person refusing to answer a question, and being obtuse about it, comes across as childish.

And yes, every game is meaningful, it’s funny to think otherwise .

 

[wetcoast]

I think you've brought up some very good points.
What this breakout really shows me is that the 2nd half of Crosby's career is not actually generational. But that the 1st half was as good as what McDavid has accomplished and is only slowed by injuries.

Yes and I think a lot of people would agree with the gist of this in that they are pretty close offensively.

In the 2nd half:
The Penguins won B2B cups and while he got the Smythes, they were very much team victories (1st Smythe could have easily gone to Letang, Kessel or Murray; 2nd Smythe should have been split by Murray/Fleury or could have gone to Malkin). If you start Crosby's career in 2015 it looks a lot more like Joe Sakic's than a Mt. Rushmore player who happens to play in a lower-scoring era. I say Sakic because his teams also won a ton but nowhere is he considered even a top 10 player.

Crosby's PPG through 2014: 1.4
Crosby's PPG since 2014: 1.15 - in a higher scoring era with 3 on 3 OT. That is almost 20% lower.

I'd have to go back and check on Sakic but here it what Crosby has done since his first 9 years.

He has a line of 722-318-509-827 good for 5th overall in scoring in that 10 season stretch.

Connor is obviously 1st but he was only 28 points from 2nd and had by far the best 2 way game of any of the top 5 players in that stretch.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Your point of the Conn Smythes is a fair one but he was also still a very good playoff performer over that stretch 11th overall in points and still over a PPG.

Overall I think that if first 9 season Crosby and last 10 season crosby were 2 different players they would both be HHOFers

So I think when folks are assuming McDavid will pass Crosby, they are assuming:
1) He will keep up his pace or maybe drop off by ~10% or so in production, not as much as Crosby did.
2) He will win 1 Cup and he likely will be far and away his team's best player in doing so

McDavid is very capable of passing Crosby, but he has to achieve the above criteria.

You are right for some people he might have to achieve that criteria but I think he could pass him even without a SC and I'm pretty sure (I don't want the usual suspects to jump all over me but I'll go out on a limb here even if the games haven't been played yet) that McDavid will be seen as the better offensive player and I've said this in the past of course Gonzo will have to be asked exactly what I'm thinking if you really want to know just ask him.

Yes it’s obvious
EVERY game in the Stanley cup finals is meaningful, until you win or lose the series.
Refusing to answer a question, and being obtuse about it, comes across as childish.

And yes, every game is meaningful, it’s funny to think otherwise .

And you're quoting me why?

I'm a big picture guy and take everything into account maybe I'm missing something here?

 

[ChaosAgent]

I'd have to go back and check on Sakic but here it what Crosby has done since his first 9 years.

He has a line of 722-318-509-827 good for 5th overall in scoring in that 10 season stretch.

Connor is obviously 1st but he was only 28 points from 2nd and had by far the best 2 way game of any of the top 5 players in that stretch.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Your point of the Conn Smythes is a fair one but he was also still a very good playoff performer over that stretch 11th overall in points and still over a PPG.

Overall I think that if first 9 season Crosby and last 10 season crosby were 2 different players they would both be HHOFers

I agree, but the 1st player is a phenom/generational talent and the 2nd player is Joe Sakic.

If McDavid puts up, say, 2 more Rosses, 2 more Harts, 700 goals/2000 points for his career and a Cup he probably supplants Howe or Mario in the top 4. He is still very capable of it, but at this point he's committed to have to do it in Edmonton.