Inquirer: Flyers, Sixers to build new South Philly Arena

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ponder719

M-M-M-Matvei and the Jett
Jul 2, 2013
8,283
11,624
Philadelphia, PA

After all that wrangling about 76 Place, and all the misery they caused Chinatown, the Sixers have abruptly made an about-face, and now will work with the Flyers and Comcast Spectacor on a new arena in the existing sports complex, per the head of the Philadelphia Building and Construction Trades Council.

Posted here because it impacts the Flyers, but if people feel this is more appropriate for BoS because the Sixers changing their minds is the more interesting angle, feel free to move it there.

Edit: Harris Blitzer Sports & Entertainment and Comcast Spectacor Announce Joint Venture to Build World-Class Arena In South Philadelphia As Well As Revitalize Market East | Comcast Spectacor - The official press release. Highlights include:
* Comcast will be acquiring a minority stake in the Sixers
* Confirms that Comcast will join the HBSE expansion bid for a WNBA team
* Mentions the Comcast/Phillies redevelopment project as still going ahead alongside this project
* An HBSE representative will chair the arena development, Comcast will get naming rights
* Some form of development in Market East will continue, but it appears to now be divorced from the sports teams other than ownership
 
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These buildings that went up in the 90s don't seem old to me.

When you see some of the buildings that were torn down in the 90s, like some of those original 6 arenas, they had a longer useful life than that.
 
Modern arenas shouldn't need to be replaced. The most expensive part of an arena is the roof. Look at TD Garden or Capital One Arena, you just gut the inside.
 
Modern arenas shouldn't need to be replaced. The most expensive part of an arena is the roof. Look at TD Garden or Capital One Arena, you just gut the inside.

Yeah, what's crazy is the Flyers/Spectacor just did that. To the tune of $400 million over the past 5 years. Essentially a whole new interior.

What this tells me is the Sixers scared the ever-living shit out of Comcast. Here's a potentially-long and not-comprehensive background on the situation.

Spectacor was Ed Snider's company. A few years before he died, it consisted of the Flyers, the Sixers, the Wells Fargo Center, the Comcast Sportsnet/NBC Sports Philly channel, a sprawling arena management company called Spectra, and a few other random holdings (lacrosse team, eSports team, other properties).

As Snider aged he began to divest to Comcast, which now fully owns Spectacor. He sold the Sixers. The TV channel was spun off into the greater NBC Sports group within Comcast. Snider's righthand man, Peter Luukko, was expected to take over leadership of the subsidiary, but he left abruptly during the Comcast takeover. Luukko was later asked by Bettman to oversee the Florida Panthers: he helped stabilize their arena situation and put the people in place who eventually built their Cup team.

Spectacor has since been run by Dave Scott and now Dan Hilferty, both outside corporate executives with no background in sports and arena management. The company has continued to spin off most of its non-Flyers/WFC holdings. Spectra, the biggest one, was sold to private equity...and the firm that bought it hired none other than Peter Luukko to run it!

So the Flyers/their parent company have been reduced to shells of their former selves. Meanwhile this whole time, the Sixers have been on an expensive lease in the Wells Fargo Center that benefitted them in no way. They also have an absolutely terrible TV deal with NBC Sports Philly, signed in the Spectacor days, which is paltry compared to what contemporary franchises get. NBA franchises, and the Sixers especially, have exploded in value over the last 15 years or so. It didn't make sense for them to be playing second-fiddle to a middling NHL team.

The Sixers had been getting the short end of the stick from the Flyers/Spectacor for decades. The Sixers, now owned by the Harris group, wanted what every sports team owner wants: That sweet, sweet bonus income that comes from owning the premier indoor events center in a massive US city, slurping up all the major concerts and political conventions and whatever else in the area. The Sixers leaned on city officials for the last few years to get approval for their plan.

Spectacor was contributing to the community groups opposing the plan, because it would have been a huge blow to the Flyers' value/Spectacor's income. But they have also been doing everything to try to convince the Sixers to stay. They just spent those hundreds of millions of dollars updating Wells Fargo Center, hoping to make it sexy again and avoid having to build an all-new arena anytime soon. They even recently offered the Sixers half-ownership of the Wells Fargo Center.

But Harris wants prime real estate, not a share of some aging arena. The Sixers ignored all of Spectacor's overtures and rolled on and got city approval for their arena plan last month...and then this comes out of the blue. And reporting is that it wasn't Hilferty who struck this deal--the CEO of Actual Comcast itself came down from his throne to make sure it got done, and apparently they only began talking in the past few weeks.

So, TL;DR...the Flyers/Spectacor used to be the big dogs in this relationship, but their local power has waned since Snider left the picture. The Sixers arena plan represented a grievous threat to their remaining value, and the Comcast overlords have decided it's better to have the hockey team accept a little brother role and reap SOME of the benefits than to fight, lose, and get none. But this is a BIG about-face for both companies.
 
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Also interesting in this is the reports that Roger Goodell was involved in the broader negotiations, along with Brian Roberts and Adam Silver (no word on if Bettman had any part to play here). This sounds like one component of a much, much larger plan to renovate the entire stadium complex. There are rumors floating around that the Eagles want to replace LFF with a domed stadium so they can accommodate major events like the Super Bowl (and Lurie just sold off a portion of the team, giving him significant additional liquidity), I've seen the Union's name floated, this could be a massive project that ends up with all the city's professional teams in one location, possibly including a takeover of the Navy Yard.
 
Also interesting in this is the reports that Roger Goodell was involved in the broader negotiations, along with Brian Roberts and Adam Silver (no word on if Bettman had any part to play here). This sounds like one component of a much, much larger plan to renovate the entire stadium complex. There are rumors floating around that the Eagles want to replace LFF with a domed stadium so they can accommodate major events like the Super Bowl (and Lurie just sold off a portion of the team, giving him significant additional liquidity), I've seen the Union's name floated, this could be a massive project that ends up with all the city's professional teams in one location, possibly including a takeover of the Navy Yard.

...somehow this ends with the teams coming together to demolish all the existing structures, build exact replicas of the Spectrum and Veteran's Stadium, and somehow declare victory 😂
 
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...somehow this ends with the teams coming together to demolish all the existing structures, build exact replicas of the Spectrum and Veteran's Stadium, and somehow declare victory 😂
If that’s what it takes to keep them from turning Chinatown into traffic hell, then yeah, victory.

Besides, the judicial system could probably use the extra outpost.
 
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Also interesting in this is the reports that Roger Goodell was involved in the broader negotiations, along with Brian Roberts and Adam Silver (no word on if Bettman had any part to play here). This sounds like one component of a much, much larger plan to renovate the entire stadium complex. There are rumors floating around that the Eagles want to replace LFF with a domed stadium so they can accommodate major events like the Super Bowl (and Lurie just sold off a portion of the team, giving him significant additional liquidity), I've seen the Union's name floated, this could be a massive project that ends up with all the city's professional teams in one location, possibly including a takeover of the Navy Yard.

Oh for the love of god. LFF is only 22 years old and I've never heard anyone say anything bad about it. Its one thing for the Browns to want to scrap their current stadium which is a dump and poorly designed and constructed.
 
Oh for the love of god. LFF is only 22 years old and I've never heard anyone say anything bad about it. Its one thing for the Browns to want to scrap their current stadium which is a dump and poorly designed and constructed.

To be fair, that's rumor, and not particularly well sourced rumor at that. It's entirely possible that Lurie's actual plan is a renovation of LFF to dome it up or something like that, or that this is a long-term, start construction after New WFC is built, finish in like 2036 or w/e kind of idea. But Goodell being involved definitely means Lurie's in on the conversations somehow, and frankly, if the other three teams are talking, it'd be shocking if he wasn't as well.
 
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To be fair, that's rumor, and not particularly well sourced rumor at that. It's entirely possible that Lurie's actual plan is a renovation of LFF to dome it up or something like that, or that this is a long-term, start construction after New WFC is built, finish in like 2036 or w/e kind of idea. But Goodell being involved definitely means Lurie's in on the conversations somehow, and frankly, if the other three teams are talking, it'd be shocking if he wasn't as well.

Ok that's better. I was never one who was against all funding of sports venues. However, now that the cost of venues has gotten so insane its now getting to the point that governments can't possibly recover the money and they are making tickets so ridiculously expensive (including in part by reducing the number of seats) that most people can't go to games. The proposed Browns stadium is rumored to be charging over $200 per ticket for UPPER deck seats. When I left Cleveland in 2016 those seats were $60.
 
there are just so many levels of hilarity in this that i don’t know if it’s fully possible for the human person to be able to wrap its mind around. the blind are truly leading the blind.
 
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Arena stuff is always fascinating to me and especially this saga as Harris and Co. are looking for a new stadium for my beloved Commanders. One thing I feel like I never really got with this one -- do Philly fans actually like the sports complex? As a Caps fan I was really pissed when they were going to move out of downtown into Virginia and in my limited time in Philly it always seemed to me like WF and LFF were kind of in the middle of nowhere and just a bunch of massive parking lots.
 
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Arena stuff is always fascinating to me and especially this saga as Harris and Co. are looking for a new stadium for my beloved Commanders. One thing I feel like I never really got with this one -- do Philly fans actually like the sports complex? As a Caps fan I was really pissed when they were going to move out of downtown into Virginia and in my limited time in Philly it always seemed to me like WF and LFF were kind of in the middle of nowhere and just a bunch of massive parking lots.
It probably depended on the arena. For football the fans probably liked the tail gate there was a legit need for that much parking. I doubt either apply to hockey or basketball.
 
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Arena stuff is always fascinating to me and especially this saga as Harris and Co. are looking for a new stadium for my beloved Commanders. One thing I feel like I never really got with this one -- do Philly fans actually like the sports complex? As a Caps fan I was really pissed when they were going to move out of downtown into Virginia and in my limited time in Philly it always seemed to me like WF and LFF were kind of in the middle of nowhere and just a bunch of massive parking lots.

Stadium siting is fairly tricky in Philly, because we have such a major chunk of our fanbase cut off from any reasonable location by the Delaware River. The teams generally want to make sure that there's credible access from South Jersey, proximity to 76 and 95 to move fans from the suburbs in and out quickly, and at least some level of SEPTA access to the stadium. That was the one thing that never made sense with 76 Place, it made access from Jersey much more complicated, and put the arena in a place where if you didn't see materially more public transit access, the trip into and out of the stadium area would have taken an extra 45 minutes each way.

Having everything in the sports complex means you abut 95, have a two-block drive to the onramp to 76, it's already serviced by the Broad Street Line, and while the parking lot sea isn't aesthetically pleasing, there's generally close to enough of it, at least. If I was designing the entire city today, I'd have made more space for things like arenas in Center City, or even Old City along the waterfront, but nowadays, I'd hate to have to fit an arena anywhere else, because at least you're confining the attendant issues to the one area.

And, once in a while, if the schedule permits, you can time things out so you spend a full day at the complex; See the Phils or Eagles play a day game, hop over to Xfinity Live to kill time for a bit, then go to a Flyers or Sixers game at seven, and that's something you can't quite replicate if the teams are scattered to the four winds.
 
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Arena stuff is always fascinating to me and especially this saga as Harris and Co. are looking for a new stadium for my beloved Commanders. One thing I feel like I never really got with this one -- do Philly fans actually like the sports complex? As a Caps fan I was really pissed when they were going to move out of downtown into Virginia and in my limited time in Philly it always seemed to me like WF and LFF were kind of in the middle of nowhere and just a bunch of massive parking lots.

I hate the sports complex. I think it's an absolute blight. I also have a degree in urban studies, though, so I'll always be one of those obnoxious brats crying for less car dependence and more centralized downtown attractions. I also lived in Nashville, where Bridgestone is right in the heart of the kitschy tourist action, and Pittsburgh, where the city is so small that the arena and stadiums are basically a 15-minute busride from anywhere.

I personally loath going to hockey and baseball games here--it's a shitty experience, and the drive and parking lot traffic comprise as much of the journey as the game. The contrast between walking from a downtown bar over a bridge to a beautiful riverfront ballpark for a Pirates game vs. breathing exhaust fumes for a half hour before walking a mile across scorching hot parking lots for a Phillies game...it's just night and day. One is a relaxing outing and an experience, the other is a joyless chore.

For the majority of Philly-area sports fans, though, it's what they know and what they think works. A lot of Philly fans believe it's sacrilege to say you hate it. Most of the attendees of games aren't coming from Philly itself, they're driving in from the suburbs of Bucks or Montgomery County or south Jersey or wherever else, and they're used to it. Safe in the rolling metal box until you reach the sea of gated parking lots, never having to interact with the utter horror of an actual city or public transit (much safer to be surrounded by irritated drunk drivers on I95, of course).

As ponder points out above, though, it's not like Philly offers a lot of great options. It is a very old and very dense city. If you were to start all over again, you probably do it differently. But if they're going to fix something now, it should be breaking up the asphalt monotony with at least some form of commercial development and green space. Build a few parking garages and a Chipotle and plant some trees or something. Make it tolerable, I guess, even if inauthentic--because it isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
 
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