In terms of offensive ceilings, does Howe to Beliveau, Mikita and Hull = McDavid to Kucherov, MacKinnon and Draisaitl?

[jigglysquishy]

NHL coaches' poll

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎Apr 3, 1958
Smartest player - Gordie Howe
Best pass and playmaker - Gordie Howe
Best man on breakaway - Maurice Richard
Best puck-carrier - Gordie Howe
Hardest shot - Boom Boom Geoffrion
Best and fastest skater - Henri Richard

 

[Staniowski]

Yeah you may be onto something, as I also agree Lemieux > Gretzky in actual offensive ability, but once again obviously close.

I also remember looking at their stats back in the day and thinking for a guy who was so good into his 40s it’s strange that he would start being outscored by someone who’s perceived as the lesser offensive talent in his 20s, and figured it was likely Beliveau was better (offensively) but came along as the league became more competitive.

Howe wasn't perceived as the better offensively player, though. They were seen as about equals when they were at or near their bests.

Howe was an excellent scorer but was never a dominant scorer. His so-called domination happened versus a lot of competitors who were approaching AHL quality. As soon as Beliveau and the other guys entered the league and became stars, Howe was never again anything close to a dominant scorer.

 

[authentic]

NHL coaches' poll

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎Apr 3, 1958
Smartest player - Gordie Howe
Best pass and playmaker - Gordie Howe
Best man on breakaway - Maurice Richard
Best puck-carrier - Gordie Howe
Hardest shot - Boom Boom Geoffrion
Best and fastest skater - Henri Richard

Would Beliveau have won in stickhandling?

 

[jigglysquishy]

Would Beliveau have won in stickhandling?

Larry Regan

Most accurate shot - Maurice Richard
Best defensive forward - Red Sullivan
Best defensive defenceman - Doug Harvey
Best attacking defenceman - Bill Gadsby
Most underrated - Tom Johnson
Best goaltender (3 categories) - Terry Sawchuk

 

[tabness]

Howe wasn't perceived as the better offensively player, though. They were seen as about equals when they were at or near their bests.

Howe was an excellent scorer but was never a dominant scorer. His so-called domination happened versus a lot of competitors who were approaching AHL quality. As soon as Beliveau and the other guys entered the league and became stars, Howe was never again anything close to a dominant scorer.

I can't speak on the particulars of Howe and Beliveau offensive ability in the fifties given the lack of games available directly (statistically Beliveau seems quite powerplay reliant compared to Howe), but as for your general point, I have looked this up before and I tend to agree.

The vast dominance of Howe in the early fifties seems to be due to the weakness of the league as compared to the later fifties and sixties when a lot of stars rolled in and established themselves.

There was an explanation put forth that Howe's injury during the 1954-1955 year was some turning point in his offensive dominance, but this seems to be a post hoc rationalization not supported by the contrempaneous opinion, as I found out doing some digging on his injury:

Just looking at the papers from that time, Gordie Howe had a sprained right shoulder against Toronto November 3rd 1954 which was considered to not be too serious after further examination (by the medical standards of the time I guess I should point out as Dr. Milton Kosley reported "no bones are broken, and his injury appears to be torn ligaments in the right shoulder" so that is some quick therapy lol) and only expected to keep him out for a week to ten days. He suffered the injury tripping while forechecking Hugh Bolton, and finished the game as "it didn't hurt then, but it started hurting after the game" and overnight the shoulder stiffened up after the team's chartered flight to Boston.

Detroit wasn't as hot or as high in the standings early that year compared to years before, though Ted Lindsay among others pointed not only to Gordie Howe missing time, but the Wings shipping off Prystai as a big reason for it.

Howe's stats before his injury are 4 goals and 9 points in 10 games. Seem low, but Howe seemed to generally be a slow starter anyway in years before (11-12 points usually but only 7 in 1951-1952), so not sure how much to read into that.

There's little talk on the injury or any lingering effects after Howe returning however, and the Wings did of course win their last (for a while) cup in 1955.

In the four seasons before 1954-1955, Gordie scored an average of 43 goals and 87 points in a 70 game season. In the four seasons after, he scored an average of 37/38 goals and 82/83 points. Given that the former timeframe saw Howe in his early twenties and the latter in his late twenties, and Lindsay himself entering his thirties, the small difference makes sense no? Most star forwards have their highest scoring years in their early twenties. Gordie may be exceptional in longevity, but is he exceptional in this case of when his best years would be?

The issue I'll always have with looking at scoring placements can be summed up with the early and latter part of the fifties. Which group looks stronger to you?

1950-1951 to 1953-1954

1955-1956 to 1958-1959

The question really is, how would early twenties Gordie look against that latter fifties peer group? Or how would Gordie's dominance look if guys like Beliveau, Bathgate, Moore were in their primes in the early fifties.

To add, this is probably the clearest indication we'll have of why Gordie Howe saw a dip in 1954-1955 (from the Montreal Gazette, February 23 1955)

View attachment 464019

Even the best and most consistent slump sometimes

Certainly the marquee of the names of the top scorers from the later fifties dwarfs that of the early fifties (see links in quoted post).

It's another case of the dominance of the peers case not being very convincing due to the change in peers, and I think there are parallels to Gretzky in the early eighties as compared the league strengthening in the later eighties

 

[authentic]

Larry Regan

Most accurate shot - Maurice Richard
Best defensive forward - Red Sullivan
Best defensive defenceman - Doug Harvey
Best attacking defenceman - Bill Gadsby
Most underrated - Tom Johnson
Best goaltender (3 categories) - Terry Sawchuk

I don’t see stickhandling

 

[jigglysquishy]

I don’t see stickhandling

Larry Regan was named best stickhandler

 

[authentic]

Larry Regan was named best stickhandler

Oh my bad.

Yeah so Beliveau wasn’t voted best anything? What about other seasons?

 

[MadLuke]

To note, Howe turn 30 in the spring of 1958, because of how well he aged that can get a bit forgotten or far in mind.

This:
1956-57 NHL 1.27 (1st)
1957-58 NHL 1.20 (1st) (turn 30 by the end of that year)
1958-59 NHL 1.11 (5th)

Falling a bit back after turning 30 is quite classic for great scorer that start to play pro young like Howe (18 for him).

Take an Ovechkin, his last top 10 finish was around that 1957-1958 season for Howe, exactly the same for Crosby last top 3/relevant to the art ross race of 2017, that was Howe 1957-1958 season. Yzerman last real top 10 was significantly before that.

Jagr first Capitals season was that 57-58 year, he declined right after in a serious way, had a great comeback after a long nhl break.

It can be hard to really distinguish slowing down with league getting better (both must have been happening here). They are probably closer than the point differential to the next best would show.

in the 10 years of 1955-1964 playoff Howe was quite dominant versus the rest of the league, so at least in short burst he could still dominate the league later on (a bit like modern aging star Gretzky-Lemieux, that had issue dominating over full season, but from stretch to stretch could still do it)

 

[BadgerBruce]

There was an explanation put forth that Howe's injury during the 1954-1955 year was some turning point in his offensive dominance, but this seems to be a post hoc rationalization not supported by the contrempaneous opinion, as I found out doing some digging on his injury:

I posted the following in 2021:

“Anyone who thinks Gordie Howe played through his peak without serious injuries is just uninformed.

I’m just going to pluck out a few lines from “Mr. Hockey: My Story.”

Overall injuries: “when a doctor hands me a chart and asks me to mark the places I’ve been injured, I just draw a line from top right to the lower left and write in ‘All of the Above’.”

Knee injuries? “Unfortunately, medicine wasn’t as sophisticated as it is now. At the time, if your cartilage was damaged, the surgeon didn’t repair it — he just yanked it out. I ended up playing for more than 30 years with no cartilage in either knee.” Read that again: more than 30 years. That’s basically his career.

Of course, everyone knows about the hole drilled in Howe’s skull in 1950 after the fracture. Nearly died — his parents were flown in from Saskatchewan and a priest was called.

He played throughout the 1950s with broken collarbones and ribs and wrists and feet — some he hid out of fear for his job.

I’m all in favour of considering the role physical health plays in a career. But Howe had more than his fair share of serious injuries throughout his peak years that likely would have ended the careers of many players.”

 

[tabness]

I posted the following in 2021:

“Anyone who thinks Gordie Howe played through his peak without serious injuries is just uninformed.

I’m just going to pluck out a few lines from “Mr. Hockey: My Story.”

Overall injuries: “when a doctor hands me a chart and asks me to mark the places I’ve been injured, I just draw a line from top right to the lower left and write in ‘All of the Above’.”

Knee injuries? “Unfortunately, medicine wasn’t as sophisticated as it is now. At the time, if your cartilage was damaged, the surgeon didn’t repair it — he just yanked it out. I ended up playing for more than 30 years with no cartilage in either knee.” Read that again: more than 30 years. That’s basically his career.

Of course, everyone knows about the hole drilled in Howe’s skull in 1950 after the fracture. Nearly died — his parents were flown in from Saskatchewan and a priest was called.

He played throughout the 1950s with broken collarbones and ribs and wrists and feet — some he hid out of fear for his job.

I’m all in favour of considering the role physical health plays in a career. But Howe had more than his fair share of serious injuries throughout his peak years that likely would have ended the careers of many players.”

Yes Howe has a storied injury history as do most superstar players (at least until like in today's league lol)

I'm referring to a particular theory espoused that Howe's torn ligaments in his shoulder in 1954-1955 were what reduced his level of dominance before and after, fundamentally changing the arc of his career. I dug into it, and it didn't seem to be a thing at all. Better explanations seem to be the strengthening league and just age as I pointed out in my post.

Post in thread 'Gordie Howe's offensive ceiling'

Sep 7, 2021

What throws a bit of cold water on this is the fact that after 53/54, other players started hitting his peak numbers (Beliveau, Moore).

Yes, these were players on the powerhouse Habs team but the '50 to '54 Wings were the 2nd best team of the decade.

Yes, league GPG went up in the 2nd half of the 50's, again perhaps influenced by the Habs (the 57/58 version scored an unusually high amount of goals). Or any other statistical anomalies given it was a six team league (the 53/54 Hawks scored an unusually low amount of goals).

Howe, IMO, put up one season that was untouchable by his...

• TheDevilMadeMe

• 

There's little talk on the injury or any lingering effects after Howe returning however, and the Wings did of course win their last (for a while) cup in 1955.

In the four seasons before 1954-1955, Gordie scored an average of 43 goals and 87 points in a 70 game season. In the four seasons after, he scored an average of 37/38 goals and 82/83 points. Given that the former timeframe saw Howe in his early twenties and the latter in his late twenties, and Lindsay himself entering his thirties, the small difference makes sense no? Most star forwards have their highest scoring years in their early twenties. Gordie may be exceptional in longevity, but is he exceptional in this case of when his best years would be?

The issue I'll always have with looking at scoring placements can be summed up with the early and latter part of the fifties. Which group looks stronger to you?

1950-1951 to 1953-1954

1955-1956 to 1958-1959

The question really is, how would early twenties Gordie look against that latter fifties peer group? Or how would Gordie's dominance look if guys like Beliveau, Bathgate, Moore were in their primes in the early fifties.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Howe's March 1956 concussion was a pretty big deal. The NHL even hosted their first ever press conference. Howe ended up in the hospital, which for a concussion in the 50s was a big deal.

He also had two broken ribs in January 1958, from a stick but end by Leo Boivin.

It's less a one off injury like Gretzky or Crosby. But just an accumulation of major injuries for 20 years.

 

[Staniowski]

I can't speak on the particulars of Howe and Beliveau offensive ability in the fifties given the lack of games available directly (statistically Beliveau seems quite powerplay reliant compared to Howe), but as for your general point, I have looked this up before and I tend to agree.

The vast dominance of Howe in the early fifties seems to be due to the weakness of the league as compared to the later fifties and sixties when a lot of stars rolled in and established themselves.

There was an explanation put forth that Howe's injury during the 1954-1955 year was some turning point in his offensive dominance, but this seems to be a post hoc rationalization not supported by the contrempaneous opinion, as I found out doing some digging on his injury:



Certainly the marquee of the names of the top scorers from the later fifties dwarfs that of the early fifties (see links in quoted post).

It's another case of the dominance of the peers case not being very convincing due to the change in peers, and I think there are parallels to Gretzky in the early eighties as compared the league strengthening in the later eighties

There's a pretty good comparison to be made between the 1950s and the 1980s, enough interesting parallels that you could write a good book on the subject.

In both cases, there's somewhat of a weakness of talent before the decades start, then Howe and Gretzky come along, seminal figures in the history of the sport, along with (or soon followed by) a huge influx of talent the likes of which had never been seen before in history, followed by some weak years in the early parts of the decades, and then followed by much greater depth of talent and strength of league in the 2nd-half of the decade, and beyond.

 

[Staniowski]

It's another case of the dominance of the peers case not being very convincing due to the change in peers, and I think there are parallels to Gretzky in the early eighties as compared the league strengthening in the later eighties

The whole notion of comparing players using dominance among your peers metrics is a scam, and the people who are using them don't know what they're doing. It's very lazy, and completely inaccurate.

 

[daver]

The whole notion of comparing players using dominance among your peers metrics is a scam, and the people who are using them don't know what they're doing. It's very lazy, and completely inaccurate.

In these divisive times, your balanced and nuanced position is much appreciated.

 

[bobholly39]

NHL coaches' poll

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎Apr 3, 1958
Smartest player - Gordie Howe
Best pass and playmaker - Gordie Howe
Best man on breakaway - Maurice Richard
Best puck-carrier - Gordie Howe
Hardest shot - Boom Boom Geoffrion
Best and fastest skater - Henri Richard

If voting dynamics in the 50s are anything like today - it takes a few years for ability to catch up to reputation.

Beliveau had a fantastic peak year in 1956, but even if he was better than Howe (and i'm not claiming he was), it wouldn't surprise me that just 2 years later in 1958, reputation wise guys like Howe and Richard were still being slotted ahead.

Modern day parallel - in the NHLPA polls, we constantly see older guys with strong reputations do well (Crosby, Vasi, etc).

I'd be curious to see a poll from ~1960 for example, if that exists. I could see Beliveau doing better.