Finland is 5-7 against Canada and Usa after best on best olympics started 98
was literal 5-5 before this 4Nations
No point going into 70s and 80s we didn't have a team or rinks here back then. Finland came to top mid 90's
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In an Alternate Universe, What If? (Russia)
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was literal 5-5 before this 4Nations
No point going into 70s and 80s we didn't have a team or rinks here back then. Finland came to top mid 90's
That's a great record for an average NHL goalie. But the narrative about Hellebuyck has been that's he's at worst the 2nd best goalie on the planet. The bar is higher for him than an average NHL goalie.
The last 2 years where he was outplayed by his own former & future backup (Brossoit) and the worst starter in the league (Georgiev) is hilariously bad for a goalie that 90% of the hockey world says is the best.
Let's not forget this all started by me saying there's goalies I'd take over Hellebuyck in big games. The post i quoted above shows his playoff resume.Missing the point is a weird way to say that I disagreed with the premise that the only big game in the 3/4 game tournament was the last one, which you could only reach if you won 2 out of the first 3. That's not really missing the point. It's disagreeing with a bad take.
I don't know why you're getting so upset over this. You asked what big playoff games he has won. I game you two examples of big playoff games he has won. If you don't want your questions answered, why do you ask them?
Then why didn't you say playoff games, instead of big games? I thought it was universally understood that Round Robin games are important in short tournaments.
When did Binnington show that regular seasons don't mean anything? Aren't the Blues en route to miss the playoffs in part because of Binnington's play? Which has happened several seasons since their win? Isn't a key part of winning in the "big playoff games" actually reaching the playoffs in the first place?
The Bruins are 1 point out of the playoffs, and their starting goalie is rocking a sub .900 save percentage. I didn't know saying that Swayman's play is a large part of how they might miss the playoffs. Someone should inform HFBruins.
If you want a guy to play the majority of the first 82 games, sure take Hellebuyck. I wouldn't take him but I won't argue against it, at least he has the regular season track record.
But when people start transferring that reputation into the playoffs, where his numbers level off to average, then it's perfectly reasonable to have a list of half the leagues goalies to take over him in the playoffs. Especially when hes outplayed by career backups, or goalies like Fleury and Binnington who are universally shit on (yet unlike Hellebuyck, have actually won something)
Romang67
BitterSwede
Who forgot that the conversation started with your saying you'd take other goalies over him in big games? That's why I asked if you were pretending that the first three games, where you needed to win two to reach the finals, weren't big games. You have made it abundantly clear that, because Hellebuyck won the first two games, they cannot have been big games. It's a weird stance to take, but it's certainly the one you're taking.
I dunno, it seems like you have some weird hang-up about the guy. Maybe it's just something I'm imagining. Maybe it's because we are talking about an international tournament, and you're talking about the NHL playoffs as evidence that he couldn't win in big games in a tournament when they made the final game because he won the first two games in that very tournament. Who knows.
Nowhere did I say they weren't big games because Hellebuyck won them. But if you want to put words in my mouth im done here.
Get hung up on the terminology all you want. The fact is he lost another big game to a goalie 90% of the hockey world claims is inferior to him, and his playoff resume is not much better than average, which is not ideal for someone with a reputation as overhyped as his.
Romang67
BitterSwede
I mean, you turned around and said Round Robin games in a tournament that has the format:
Round Robin
Final Game if you finish top 2 in the round robin
Aren't important after I asked if the two games he won in the round robin didn't count as big. If you have another explanation for why you're saying that neither of the two games he won in the round robin weren't important, that isn't "Hellebuyck won them," I'd love to hear it. Because the only other explanation I could really buy is that you didn't understand the tournament format.
Terminology seems rather important when you make the claim that he's never the best goalie on the ice in "big games." The truth of that statement would depend entirely on your definition of big games, no?
I mean, you've stated in here that you'd take Swayman, Oettinger, and Daccord over Hellebuyck, so the real issue is obviously that you have some weird hang-up about him. Unless you're picking Daccord over Hellebuyck for his stellar playoff resume, of course.
See this is the problem, Hellebuyck has become so overrated that taking some great goalies over him equates to someone having "some weird hang-up" about him. Which is why, fundamentally, this conversation is pointless. You (and many others) have the blinders on so much that you can't even comprehend that a person would prefer someone other than Hellebuyck in the playoffs, despite his very average resume
The best two teams at the tournament were still CAN/USA but if Russia's in I would have expected this to be a 6 team tournament and a 50% wider net of teams to have changed the outcome. I would take the field that something else happens.
Canada had all the x-factors in this tournament in my opinion.
McDavid, MacKinon, Makar - the 3 clear best players in the tournament. And Crosby arguably the 4th or close with his international experience - a bit older, but contributed a ton still.
US had...Matthews? A playoff choker, who is also injured this year.
US had...Helle? Fantastic goalie, but generally a playoff underachiever.
Quinn Hughes was out.
They have a ton of talent and overall depth, but not really any x-factors.
With Russia - I feel as though they would have had more X-factors like Canada did.
Kucherov - a player in the same tier as McDavid, Mack and Makar
Ovechkin - still great, could take on the Crosby role, with experience/respect from teammates and leader
Other great talents like Kaprizov, Panarin (are they both better than any US forward other than Matthews?)
Goalies - Shesterkin imo better than Helle so far in playoffs. Vasi? A beast in playoffs. Both could be x-factors
So - Canada has x-factors, and they have depth.
US has a ton of talent and a ton of depth - but much less x-factors.
Russia could match Canada for x-factors, or at least surpass the US. Less depth than US though.
In my opinion - it would still probably be CAN/US finals as they are the two best teams, but Russia would be a very easy #3 'on paper', and it would be possible for them to beat out any team.
McDavid, MacKinon, Makar - the 3 clear best players in the tournament. And Crosby arguably the 4th or close with his international experience - a bit older, but contributed a ton still.
US had...Matthews? A playoff choker, who is also injured this year.
US had...Helle? Fantastic goalie, but generally a playoff underachiever.
Quinn Hughes was out.
They have a ton of talent and overall depth, but not really any x-factors.
With Russia - I feel as though they would have had more X-factors like Canada did.
Kucherov - a player in the same tier as McDavid, Mack and Makar
Ovechkin - still great, could take on the Crosby role, with experience/respect from teammates and leader
Other great talents like Kaprizov, Panarin (are they both better than any US forward other than Matthews?)
Goalies - Shesterkin imo better than Helle so far in playoffs. Vasi? A beast in playoffs. Both could be x-factors
So - Canada has x-factors, and they have depth.
US has a ton of talent and a ton of depth - but much less x-factors.
Russia could match Canada for x-factors, or at least surpass the US. Less depth than US though.
In my opinion - it would still probably be CAN/US finals as they are the two best teams, but Russia would be a very easy #3 'on paper', and it would be possible for them to beat out any team.
Bouboumaster
Registered User
- Jul 4, 2014
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Yes, obviously
Russia has incredible goalie depth and are stacked on the Wings, but their defense is straight up shit and their center depth is non existant
Canada and USA would abuse them, and I'd also favor Sweden and Finland above them
Russia has incredible goalie depth and are stacked on the Wings, but their defense is straight up shit and their center depth is non existant
Canada and USA would abuse them, and I'd also favor Sweden and Finland above them
WarriorofTime
Registered User
- Jul 3, 2010
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I would flip it actually. Sweden was better for probably about 12 years or so when Russia had Ovechkin, Malkin, a couple other good forwards but then like a KHL level bottom six + defense and average goaltending, but I think that's going back the other way. Russia much better goaltending than Sweden. Neither of Gustavsson or Ullmark would likely make the 3-deep for Russia. Honestly think Sweden may be a bit overrated. They have solid NHL players but do they have a single forward as good as any of Kucherov, Panarin or Kaprizov? Sweden Defensemen are good but idk with Hedman, Ekholm and Karlsson all in the process of aging out for how much longer that holds with Rasmus Dahlin as the supposed big star.
Czechboy
Náš f*cken barák!
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Using non NHL Olympics with no AHL players allowed is something. Neither team was called Russia either.
Martin Skoula
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- Oct 18, 2017
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Calling their C and D just weak is a crazy understatement. Would Malkin make a single other 4 nations team? Like maybe a sheltered PP specialist on Finland? They have maybe 2 guys between their entire C and D core that belong anywhere near a best on best tournament, and even then it’s as sheltered 10 minute a night specialists that likely don’t get used every game.
Sweden took Canada to OT (and probably would've won if it was a 5v5) and they beat the US. They were the only team that didn't lose a single game in regulation during this tournament.
I did a quick look on the NHL website and filtered it out for Russian centers. I don't even know who half of them are, and had nearly forgotten about Ivan Barbashev. I wouldn't entirely discount non-NHL centers though. As little as I know about the KHL, I don't think it's exactly a huge distance behind the NHL in terms of quality of play, and they could call on guys like Vadim Shipachyov, for example.
Martin Skoula
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The C + D group is worse than just about any NHL bubble team, there’s teams gunning for 1st overall with better Cs and D.
I get that you’re a mod so I apologize in advanced for saying something as horribly offensive as I’m about to say, but even Buffalo has better Cs and D.
...Binnington was the ONLY reason the Sweden game went to OT and the US - Sweden game was about as competitive as a Marshmallow roast, the U.S. already punched their ticket to the Final...
I don't disagree at all. It's definitely lacking. I was just trying to play devil's advocate a bit about how KHL guys may not necessarily be as bad as they seem, and a hypothetical Russian national team would certainly draw at least a few of them in and be better off for it than if they selected only guys from the NHL.
Fatass
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qc14
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I think a theoretical team Russia is better than people give it credit for but still a clear step below the US/Canada
Panarin-Barbashev-Kucherov
Kaprizov-Buchnevich-Nichuskin
Ovi-Malkin-Svechnikov
Marchenko-Voronkov-Michkov
Trenin
Sergachev - Gavrikov
Orlov - Zub
Zadorov - Provorov
Romanov
Vasilevsky
Shesterkin
Sorokin
The goalies and wings are right up there at the top, the defense is better than you think but extremely lefty-dominant, but the centers are probably going to kill you.
Panarin-Barbashev-Kucherov
Kaprizov-Buchnevich-Nichuskin
Ovi-Malkin-Svechnikov
Marchenko-Voronkov-Michkov
Trenin
Sergachev - Gavrikov
Orlov - Zub
Zadorov - Provorov
Romanov
Vasilevsky
Shesterkin
Sorokin
The goalies and wings are right up there at the top, the defense is better than you think but extremely lefty-dominant, but the centers are probably going to kill you.
Too many people are crapping on Russia for political reasons. They can beat any tier one nation on a given day.
On paper they’re on par with Sweden, just a tad below the US and Canada. Finland is 5th. The Finns have better centers than Russia, but nothing else. Czechia rounds out the top tier.
1. Canada
2. United States
3. Sweden
4. Russia
5. Finland
6. Czechia
On paper they’re on par with Sweden, just a tad below the US and Canada. Finland is 5th. The Finns have better centers than Russia, but nothing else. Czechia rounds out the top tier.
1. Canada
2. United States
3. Sweden
4. Russia
5. Finland
6. Czechia
...dunno; they are really weak at C and on D...wouldn't put them on par with Sweden and the Finns are a much better defensive squad...I'd probably have them at #5...
Russia is not really weak on D. They’re around average for the top tier, maybe slightly below.
Finland is weaker on D. The Czechs are the weakest.
And Russia’s elite Goaltending can go a long ways in mitigating defensive mistakes without sacrificing offense.
On paper they’re on par with Sweden, maybe a small step below. I’m not sold on Sweden’s star power, but they are deeper than Russia.
Finland? No chance. Finnish goaltending is considerably worse, no depth whatsoever on defense, wingers are notably worse.
Ditto for Czechia.
...Finland is a better defensive team, at forward and on defense, imo...that's what I meant...Russia has Star power on the wings and in goal...I personally think the Finns beat them more often than not...
