In an Alternate Universe, What If? (Russia)

[JKG33]

So you ARE pretending that, in a 3/4 game tournament, the only big game is the last one?

I see.

I'm not pretending, I'm stating a fact

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Every big game he manages to be the 2nd best goalie on the ice.

Sorry, I guess I should have been more clear. When you said Hellebuyck isn't the best goalie for his country, I wasn't looking for rhetoric, I was looking for a name. Can you specify the goaltender that you think is better?

 

[Dingo]

It would take a united Team Europe to consistently contend with Canada, and now the USA.

Can anything happen in hockey? Yes. But the odds will forever be in favour of the two large hockey industrial complexes.

Russia, Sweden and Finland are quite similar to Ontario, Quebec and Alberta (respectively) in terms of number of registered hockey players, number of rinks, and number of players in the NHL. The other Euro countries are like prairie or Maritime provinces.

They do very well, pound for pound, as well as those provinces, or even better, i suspect in many cases, but its just too much to ask.

 

[Romang67]

I'm not pretending, I'm stating a fact

I don't think you know what a fact is. What you're stating is an opinion.

 

[bossram]

The words you used, "get run out of the building" is a pretty hyperbolic choice in words, if you ask me. I'm arguing that even though they don't stack up on paper to the US or Canada in terms of roster quality, they'd hardly get run out of the building. It's not as if it would be a 10-0 blowout. I think they'd lose more games than they won, on the hypothetical that they played more than one game against each other, but run out of the building? No, no way.

Like I said to the other poster that made this comment to me, I mean physically run out of the building. They will get hit, a lot.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I don't think you know what a fact is. What you're stating is an opinion.

But if you define "big game" as "a game where Hellebuyck's team loses", then it's definitely a fact.

And that seems to be what's happening.

 

[Phosphophyllite]

Russia has proven themselves as the biggest paper tigers there are when it comes to international BoB hockey. I take team Finland over them.

 

[Summer Rose]

Like I said to the other poster that made this comment to me, I mean physically run out of the building. They will get hit, a lot.

Ah, that's on me for not noting the clarification then. I agree that a hypothetical Russian team today would be pretty lacking in the physicality department if composed purely of NHL players.

If we were to extend it to include some KHL players, then I have no idea, because I know pretty much nothing about the KHL.

 

[JKG33]

Sorry, I guess I should have been more clear. When you said Hellebuyck isn't the best goalie for his country, I wasn't looking for rhetoric, I was looking for a name. Can you specify the goaltender that you think is better?

Oettinger, Swayman, Daccord

 

[D Wakaluk]

So it's a three nation tournament and still these dogs lose every game. Next question

 

[JKG33]

But if you define "big game" as "a game where Hellebuyck's team loses", then it's definitely a fact.

And that seems to be what's happening.

Do tell then, what big playoff games has Hellebuyck won?

Because he's been not only been beaten, but also been outplayed by the elite of elite come playoff time, heavy hitters like Brossoit and Georgiev

 

[Erikfromfin]

It would take a united Team Europe to consistently contend with Canada, and now the USA.

Can anything happen in hockey? Yes. But the odds will forever be in favour of the two large hockey industrial complexes.

Russia, Sweden and Finland are quite similar to Ontario, Quebec and Alberta (respectively) in terms of number of registered hockey players, number of rinks, and number of players in the NHL. The other Euro countries are like prairie or Maritime provinces.

They do very well, pound for pound, as well as those provinces, or even better, i suspect in many cases, but its just too much to ask.

Wait. Sweden actully won vs Usa and only lost in overtime to Canada... what the hell you on about

 

[Romang67]

Do tell then, what big playoff games has Hellebuyck won?

Because he's been not only been beaten, but also been outplayed by the elite of elite come playoff time, heavy hitters like Brossoit and Georgiev

Hey look, you added a word! Why didn't you say "big games" again?

For the record, Hellebuyck has won playoff series, including a shutout series clinching win and a game 7 where he saved 36 out of 37 shots, so it doesn't hold water even if it's just in the playoffs. Unless those games don't count because he won, of course, sticking with the definition laid out above.

But I also thought we were talking about his playing in a short tournament? Did we change the discussion to be about NHL playoff performances?

 

[Dingo]

The flow of that game was domination from Canada.

The top-end of that Russian team is also superior to what Russia has available now (there was prime Malkin, prime OV, prime Tarasenko, Datsyuk).

If the USA transposed that same roster to today, yes, they would lose.

im gonna have to disagree about the four names you picked there, even if i agree that Russia is outmatched.

Ovechkin and Malkin were past prime
Datsyuk was basically done
Is 'Prime Tarasenko' really a thing?

Prime Kucherov, Kaprizov, Panarin and Svechnikov is considerably better, i think.

They still don't have enough, imo. Centers and D still too weak.

 

[Romang67]

Oettinger, Swayman, Daccord

Aren't the Bruins en route to miss the playoffs because of Swayman's play?

Or is this where is doesn't matter because it's not the big game, and Swayman always wins big games?

 

[JKG33]

Hey look, you added a word! Why didn't you say "big games" again?

For the record, Hellebuyck has won playoff series, including a shutout series clinching win and a game 7 where he saved 36 out of 37 shots, so it doesn't hold water even if it's just in the playoffs. Unless those games don't count because he won, of course, sticking with the definition laid out above.

But I also thought we were talking about his playing in a short tournament? Did we change the discussion to be about NHL playoff performances?

Why did I? Because apparently you were keen on intentionally missing the point. I'm sure you could find a few random regular season games you'd quantify as "big" to help your narrative too.

Great, you've found 2 outlier games. Those don't come close to outweighing the majority of his playoff body of work.

I was always talking about playoffs, be it NHL or international tournament

Aren't the Bruins en route to miss the playoffs because of Swayman's play?

Or is this where is doesn't matter because it's not the big game, and Swayman always wins big games?

As Binnington has shown, regular season means f*** all.

And if youre blaming the Bruins collapse on Swayman, then there's no conversation to be had here

 

[bossram]

im gonna have to disagree about the four names you picked there, even if i agree that Russia is outmatched.

Ovechkin and Malkin were past prime
Datsyuk was basically done
Is 'Prime Tarasenko' really a thing?

Prime Kucherov, Kaprizov, Panarin and Svechnikov is considerably better, i think.

They still don't have enough, imo. Centers and D still too weak.

WCoH was 9 years ago. If Ovechkin/Malkin weren't "prime" then, what are they now? Datsyuk wasn't done, he was still an elite two-way player. Tarasenko was a very good player at one point.

If you want to call guys past their prime, Panarin is not as dominant as he once was. Svechnikov would be a role player on the national team. Yes, Kucherov and Kaprizov are super elite. But they don't have any centers and no 1D calibre blueliner. It's objectively a worse team than 2016, especially relative to what the USA and CAN have. The gap is wider than it was in 2016.

 

[Dingo]

Wait. Sweden actully won vs Usa and only lost in overtime to Canada... what the hell you on about

Matthews, Hellebuyck, M. Tkachuk and McAvoy all took the night off. Nobody was blocking shots like their lives depended on it. They were saving it for the Canada game.

Here is a fun stat - even in this game that most people concede involves more luck than the other big sports, Canada is 15-3-1 against Finland and Sweden combined in best on best. One of those Finnish victories was the Bronze game in 1998 when the Canadians were pouting like babies after losing to the Czechs. When accounting for said puck luck, that is an astonishing win rate vs two of the best 'other' countries in this game. I havent gone through, but I doubt the USA stacks up nearly the same, but they have only more recently become a superpower producer of talent.

As a person who wants some parity, and has been cheering for those two small nations for 25 years, I repeat - they are VERY good considering their number of players and rinks are matched by Quebec and Alberta, but its a very hard ask, even in a sport where a bad call or a few good bounces can be a huge difference... they still nearly never win a game vs Canada.

That's what I'm on about.

 

[Summer Rose]

Why did I? Because apparently you were keen on intentionally missing the point. I'm sure you could find a few random regular season games you'd quantify as "big" to help your narrative too.

Great, you've found 2 outlier games. Those don't come close to outweighing the majority of his playoff body of work.

I was always talking about playoffs, be it NHL or international tournament


As Binnington has shown, regular season means f*** all.

And if youre blaming the Bruins collapse on Swayman, then there's no conversation to be had here

He's 18-27 in his NHL playoff career with a save percentage of 0.910 and a GAA of 2.85. That's not too shabby. Or are you just cherry picking him playing very poorly last year and the year before, discounting him actually being pretty steady prior to that?

 

[Dingo]

WCoH was 9 years ago. If Ovechkin/Malkin weren't "prime" then, what are they now? Datsyuk wasn't done, he was still an elite two-way player. Tarasenko was a very good player at one point.

If you want to call guys past their prime, Panarin is not as dominant as he once was. Svechnikov would be a role player on the national team. Yes, Kucherov and Kaprizov are super elite. But they don't have any centers and no 1D calibre blueliner. It's objectively a worse team than 2016, especially relative to what the USA and CAN have. The gap is wider than it was in 2016.

Ovechkin and Malkin now are the same age as Datsyuk then.

Ovechkin from 2007-2010 was prime Ovechkin. Malkin was still pretty close to his best in 2016, but also removed from his Art Ross days by a number of years.

Anyways, I wouldnt bet on today's Russia, either. I'd need 5-1 odds.

 

[Erikfromfin]

Matthews, Hellebuyck, M. Tkachuk and McAvoy all took the night off. Nobody was blocking shots like their lives depended on it. They were saving it for the Canada game.

Here is a fun stat - even in this game that most people concede involves more luck than the other big sports, Canada is 15-3-1 against Finland and Sweden combined in best on best. One of those Finnish victories was the Bronze game in 1998 when the Canadians were pouting like babies after losing to the Czechs. When accounting for said puck luck, that is an astonishing win rate vs two of the best 'other' countries in this game. I havent gone through, but I doubt the USA stacks up nearly, but they have only more recently become a superpower producer of talent.

As a person who wants some parity, and has been cheering for those two small nations for 25 years, I repeat - they are VERY good considering their number of players and rinks are matched by Quebec and Alberta, but its a very hard ask, even in a sport where a bad call or a few good bounces can be a huge difference... they still nearly never win a game vs Canada.

That's what I'm on about.

It was meaningless game for Sweden aswell. I quess they have more national and professional athlete pride than USA then. Yep Canada was only team dissapointed in 1998 and Finns were cheering at chance on bronze medal definetly not upset at all missing out on gold.

 

[Romang67]

Why did I? Because apparently you were keen on intentionally missing the point. I'm sure you could find a few random regular season games you'd quantify as "big" to help your narrative too.

Great, you've found 2 outlier games. Those don't come close to outweighing the majority of his playoff body of work.

I was always talking about playoffs, be it NHL or international tournament


As Binnington has shown, regular season means f*** all.

And if youre blaming the Bruins collapse on Swayman, then there's no conversation to be had here

Missing the point is a weird way to say that I disagreed with the premise that the only big game in the 3/4 game tournament was the last one, which you could only reach if you won 2 out of the first 3. That's not really missing the point. It's disagreeing with a bad take.

I don't know why you're getting so upset over this. You asked what big playoff games he has won. I game you two examples of big playoff games he has won. If you don't want your questions answered, why do you ask them?

Then why didn't you say playoff games, instead of big games? I thought it was universally understood that Round Robin games are important in short tournaments.

When did Binnington show that regular seasons don't mean anything? Aren't the Blues en route to miss the playoffs in part because of Binnington's play? Which has happened several seasons since their win? Isn't a key part of winning in the "big playoff games" actually reaching the playoffs in the first place?

The Bruins are 1 point out of the playoffs, and their starting goalie is rocking a sub .900 save percentage. I didn't know saying that Swayman's play is a large part of how they might miss the playoffs. Someone should inform HFBruins.

 

[Dingo]

It was meaningless game for Sweden aswell. I quess they have more national and professional athlete pride than USA then. Yep Canada was only team dissapointed in 1998 and Finns were cheering at chance on bronze medal definetly not upset at all missing out on gold.

You are being sarcastic, but I am confident the Finns were much more professional and humble about playing for Bronze. The Finns might actually be the best Bronze medal team ever. They are never too big for their britches, never too spoiled to not play every shift their hardest, never lacking in sisu.

Sweden was playing for some pride, and wanting to walk away with a win.

You left out the part where the USA rested four star players.

You also left out 15-3-1. Upsets happen in this game fairly easily. You have to be considerably better than someone to dominate to that degree.

 

[King 88]

Flopped every best on best tourny in 2000s but surely now it would have been different story.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Probably. Kucherov and Kaprizov are the only superstars they have. Goaltending would have been good but I don't think that would have been enough.