In an Alternate Universe, What If? (Russia)

[Bear of Bad News]

I just recalled another use for Russia's fleet of amazing goalies - we did an "Oops! All Goalies" event in Denver earlier last year:

 

[ViD]

Their D is much weaker and their depth up the middle isn't great.

Without Hughes and McAvoy, it’s actually fairly close

 

[Beau Knows]

Having two good goalies is ideal. If you ever get to the point you are playing a 3rd goalie though? Your tournament has gone sideways.

That's true, but there's always the possibility of injuries and illnesses.

It wasn't a factor here as Hellebuyck was healthy and solid for the US, so there's not much point now in comparing their depth in net to a hypothetical team "NHL athletes from Russia". We already know it didn't matter this time.

 

[Oilslick941611]

You could argue that, but you can say the same thing about the U.S.

Neither Russia nor the U.S. won gold in the best on best tourneys since 1996

thats true about the US, but they made it to the finals in the olympics in 2002 and 2010. Which is better than the 2nd and3rd finishes russia had in 98 and 02.

I do think the US has a better team than the russians do currently and thats why i said i dont think Russia being here for this tournament would have really changed the outcome of the teams that reached the finals.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

Your strategy will be fantastic once hockey switches to playing with multiple nets on the ice and multiple goaltenders defending those nets.

I wasn't commenting on their goaltending in the context of an international tournament. You called the statement "Russia has the best goalies in the world" ridiculous, which it's not because it's true. Russia does have the best goalies, plural, in the world. And it's really not particularly close.

In the context of an international tournament, I would still say Russia has 3 goalies that I would take over any other goalie. As a US fan if offered the trade of Vasi, Sorokin or Shestyorkin for Hellebuyck I make that trade every single time. Helle is great, but I think those 3 guys are all better.

However, the reality is goaltending is voodoo and I wouldn't put that much stock into who the players are for a tournament with such a small sample size of games. When it's one of those top guys vs some scrub then sure it has a better chance of being a factor, but as we just saw with Binnington, plenty of "scrubs" can get hot and play just as well as the top guys. And when it's a Helle vs a Sorokin/Vasi/Igor it's not going to make much of a difference.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I wasn't commenting on their goaltending in the context of an international tournament. You called the statement "Russia has the best goalies in the world" ridiculous, which it's not because it's true. Russia does have the best goalies, plural, in the world. And it's really not particularly close.

This thread is about this specific tournament format.

The person I responded to was the first person to respond, and said "It’s possible the final would be the same, but Russia would definitely give both Canada and the U.S. a big challenge. Russia has the best wingers and goalies in the world..."

I was responding to that. This is all easy to see in the thread.

Your response is a non-sequitur and unrelated to my comment.

 

[AhosDatsyukian]

This thread is about this specific tournament format.

The person I responded to was the first person to respond, and said "It’s possible the final would be the same, but Russia would definitely give both Canada and the U.S. a big challenge. Russia has the best wingers and goalies in the world..."

I was responding to that. This is all easy to see in the thread.

Your response is a non-sequitur and unrelated to my comment.

ok?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

And if you would trade Hellebuyck for Vasilevskiy *today*, then we really can't have a discussion about this at all.

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

In this specific tourny? No, they're not making the finals. Who's playing center?

Would've liked to see them in the Olympics next year though.

 

[Czechboy]

Can the nation that has never won a best on best win a best on best they weren't invited too? funny premise.
This 4 nations cup was a big success.
The last worlds was the most attended in history.

That's 2 huge successes in 2024 without Russia involved. It'd be great to have a country of their hockey quality back in the tournaments and it would improve international hockey but let's stop pretending they are going to be winning these or that the world stopped watching hockey because Russia isn't playing.

 

[BagHead]

Had they been in this tournament, this last week, I like the goaltending and top-end forwards, but that's about it. And even then, Kaprizov's on IR right now, so:

Panarin - Malkin - Kucherov
Ovechkin - Buchnevich- Marchenko
Dorofeyev - Namestnikov - Svechnikov
Barbashev - Svechkov/Khusnutdinov - Michkov

Sergachev - Gavrikov
Provorov - Zub
Orlov - Romanov

Vasilevskiy
Bobrovsky
Sorokin or Sheterkin

This team has next to no right-hand shot defensemen to choose from, and the center depth of Russians in the NHL is... pretty wanting. I mean, Svechkov and Khusnutdinov are both NHL 4th liners at this time. I don't think this team gets caved in, but I don't think it contends for the championship unless their goalies are standing on their heads (but that can be said of any of teams that were included). Did I miss any other IR guys besides Kaprizov?

 

[Sasha Orlov]

Had they been in this tournament, this last week, I like the goaltending and top-end forwards, but that's about it. And even then, Kaprizov's on IR right now, so:

Panarin - Malkin - Kucherov
Ovechkin - Buchnevich- Marchenko
Dorofeyev - Namestnikov - Svechnikov
Barbashev - Svechkov/Khusnutdinov - Michkov

Sergachev - Gavrikov
Provorov - Zub
Orlov - Romanov

Vasilevskiy
Bobrovsky
Sorokin or Sheterkin

This team has next to no right-hand shot defensemen to choose from, and the center depth of Russians in the NHL is... pretty wanting. I mean, Svechkov and Khusnutdinov are both NHL 4th liners at this time. I don't think this team gets caved in, but I don't think it contends for the championship unless their goalies are standing on their heads (but that can be said of any of teams that were included). Did I miss any other IR guys besides Kaprizov?

Adding Demidov and Nikishin will be a huge boost, especially if Demidov plays C full time in the NHL (unlikely)

 

[yessir29292]

Basically this, though a line of Michkov - Demidov - Kaprizov could outscore most of their problems

I dont think a Celebrini-Mackinnon-Bedard would be a force at this level... which would be better than that line

 

[Zalos]

We might see that next year.

 

[Dallas Winston]

Russia, chezch republic, slovakia, germany, switzerland, norway etc all get absolutley powned.

 

[Zine]

Interesting premise. Of course there's a hierarchy, but any one of Canada, USA, Russia, Sweden or Finland can still defeat each other on a given day.

 

[bossram]

Russia would have gotten run out of the building by both USA and CAN.

Their centers and blueline also lacks the high-end of CAN/USA

USA-CAN are the clear two best international squads.

 

[NVious]

I don't think Russia is even clearly better than Sweden anymore.

I guess with their stacked goalies you never know, but all of them have been pretty meh this year.

D is extremely meh, forwards are still good, but not as good as when they had prime Dats/Ovi/Malkin/Kovalchuk at least IMO.

I don't see them hanging with the big dogs of Canada/US, but anything can happen in a short tourney and all the teams do have top end talent, but just on paper they're not scary. Even their main strength of God tier goaltending has been extremely whittled this year.

 

[Jared Dunn]

It’s possible the final would be the same, but Russia would definitely give both Canada and the U.S. a big challenge.

Russia has the best wingers and goalies in the world, and a much improved blue line, only lacking quality centers.

Eh idk I think they're still behind even Finland who imo was a whole tier below the other 3 in this tourney. Russia's top 4 would probably be what? Sergachev-Romanov, Orlov-Gavrikov? Not awful but still a weakness comparatively I would say

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

Russia beat Canada in 2006 and Russia beat NA stars in 2016

Canada won in 2016 and 2010

It’s not that simple

The odd game is one thing, but Russia hasn't won a best-on-best tournament since 1981. They're done as a hockey power.

 

[Jared Dunn]

Without Hughes and McAvoy, it’s actually fairly close

Lol I mean yes if you take two of the top 5 D in the NHL off a team it hurts. Slavin, Werenski, Fox and Faber are all still better than every single D Russia can choose from

 

[Frank the Tank]

This thread reminds me of the talk before 2010 Vancouver... KHL green gloves line will surprise everyone... 2008 & 2009 IIHF championships shows Russian D can handle Canadian forecheck... Ovechkin-Malkin-Semin super line will dominate.

The QF blowout loss against Canada was a 3 strikes and you're out on those talking points.

 

[Summer Rose]

Russia would have gotten run out of the building by both USA and CAN.

Their centers and blueline also lacks the high-end of CAN/USA

USA-CAN are the clear two best international squads.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say that they’d get run out of the building. The only team in this tournament who got run out of the building was Finland against the United States, and even then they held down the fort respectably until the wheels came off in the third period. Against Canada, Finland looked dead in the water before almost making a great comeback, which gave everyone something to think about. The conclusion I like to draw from events like this is that in a single hockey game, a solid team game can totally nullify a talent disparity. In a short tournament, string even two or three of those together at opportune times and you could win the whole thing. That said, do I think that Russia would have been a threat to win? Not really, but anything can happen in just a few games.

Now, if Russia played either the United States or Canada ten games in a row I’d eat my hat it Russia won more than four of them, sure. That’s a pure hypothetical that would never happen though.

 

[bossram]

I wouldn’t go so far as to say that they’d get run out of the building. The only team in this tournament who got run out of the building was Finland against the United States, and even then they held down the fort respectably until the wheels came off in the third period. Against Canada, Finland looked dead in the water before almost making a great comeback, which gave everyone something to think about. The conclusion I like to draw from events like this is that in a single hockey game, a solid team game can totally nullify a talent disparity. In a short tournament, string even two or three of those together at opportune times and you could win the whole thing. That said, do I think that Russia would have been a threat to win? Not really, but anything can happen in just a few games.

Now, if Russia played either the United States or Canada ten games in a row I’d eat my hat it Russia won more than four of them, sure. That’s a pure hypothetical that would never happen though.

No, I mean physically run out of the building. They'd have gotten absolutely mashed. We see it every time Canada faces Russia internationally. Massive physical disadvantage on NHL ice dimensions.

Obviously in a one game sample literally anything can happen. But in terms of quality, USA and CAN are still in a tier above Russia, and it's a significant gap.

 

[BagHead]

Adding Demidov and Nikishin will be a huge boost, especially if Demidov plays C full time in the NHL (unlikely)

In future years, yes. They wouldn't have been available for this year. If we're doing future years it's a good idea to include Kaprizov. Yurov has been playing center in the KHL and will be joining the Wild roster next season, though I'm not sure how good he'll be in his rookie year. He might not be enough of an upgrade to make the team.