Stamkos played against Russia. More than 70% of Canadian NHL'ers had been eliminated from the Stanley Cup, and Team Canada took the best players available. You can go back and try to diminish these guys, but barring injury, nearly all of Canada's best available players answer the call to play for Team Canada in the WC's.
Impact of Olympics on Russian Hockey
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Stamkos played against Russia. More than 70% of Canadian NHL'ers had been eliminated from the Stanley Cup, and Team Canada took the best players available. You can go back and try to diminish these guys, but barring injury, nearly all of Canada's best available players answer the call to play for Team Canada in the WC's.
True, but the point is that in 2005, as Brent Sutter pointed out, Canada was in a class by itself because the rest of the World wasn't producing talent on the same scale. Russia was the worst, but also countries like Sweden and Finland didn't have the organization, resources and systems in place to produce any more than just a few prospects at a time. What Sutter said is that equation has obviously changed, which is why the results are different at the U20 level. Since the next level up from U20 is Senior Men's, its reasonable to conclude that the future will feature far more parity than we have now, whether there are NHL players in the Olympics or not.
Canuck21t
Registered User
I'm sorry, but no. Go and look at the 2010 rosters and everyone but some Russians can see that Russia had a much stronger team than the rest. We're not diminishing anyone without reason. Stamkos, Tavares and Duchene were still very young and inexperienced. Like I said in my previous post, 7 of Canada's players were 20 years old and under. It is not logical to consider them as if they were the same calibre as they are toady. Russia's team on the other not only had almost their Olympic rosters, but they also were in their prime. I don't know how you can't see that is beyond me.
Not nearly all.
Also he's not trying to diminish anyone, he's simply adding prospective. There's a substancial difference between a rookie and five year veteran. A rookie is young, inexperienced and still growing his game and his body. After the 3rd, 4th, 5th years guys are really starting to enter their prime generally.
That's like saying the Czech team should have been better because they had Jagr. Jagr is a 2014, 40 year old man not a 25 year old super star. In 2010 Tavares was a rookie with a lot of potential, he wasn't a top 5 scorer back then.
Of the group you mention, Toews, Stamkos, Doughty and Tavares stand out as likely to have major impact on the international stage, but the rest of these guys don't make me think that Canada will have an automatic repeat in Korea, if the NHL participates.
I am not sure how much you should be engaging in reasonable conclusions over there. The reasonable conclusion that used to be harped on about over there on this site was that Canada could not win on either big ice or away from North America.
We now see how reasonable that conclusion turned out to be
It might be best to take a truly reasonable view and understand that we all know nothing about how things will play out in the future despite "signs" of this and that.
We now see how reasonable that conclusion turned out to be
It might be best to take a truly reasonable view and understand that we all know nothing about how things will play out in the future despite "signs" of this and that.
Really? Is that because you recognize them from this Olympics? You don't think Pietrangelo and Giroux are locks to be high impact guys?
The rest of that guys on the list would have made any other countries Olympic team in 2014, that's an amazing group of forwards.
JackSlater
Registered User
- Apr 27, 2010
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This is why I still think WC success negatively impacts Russian hockey at the best on best level. Delusions regarding the quality of teams impact perceptions. In 2010 Canada was without Iginla, Nash, Getzlaf, Morrow, Weber, Doughty, Niedermayer, Staal, Brodeur, all players from the 2010 Olympic team who missed the playoffs (or were eliminated before the tournament began) and did not go to the tournament. St. Louis was the best player not on the 2010 team and refused to go even though he was available, just like Spezza did. Crosby, Bergeron, Luongo were all eliminated shortly after the tournament began and did not attend. The team of Canadians who did not attend the tournament is far better than the actual team that did. In any event though, the weakness of the 2010 Canadian WC team has little relevance on Russian hockey.
Ohashi_Jouzu*
Registered User
No they don't. Are we talking about last year's WC most specifically here? Things you're obviously not aware of:8 of the top 13 scoring Canadian forwards from last year didn't play in the WC. Further breakdown follows:
3 of Canada's top 4 centres in post season all-star voting didn't play in the WC.
3 of Canada's top 4 RWers in all-star voting didn't play in the WC.
3 of Canada's top 4 LWers in all-star voting DID play in the WC.
Only 1 of the top 8 Canadian defensemen in post-season all star voting from last year played in the WC.
Only 1 goalie also played on the Olympic team... as 3rd goalie, and no Canadian goalie on the WC team received a single all-star or Vezina vote at the end of the year.
So whether or not over 70% was "available", only 5 of the top 13 scoring Canadian forwards were taken, while 9 of the 12 "best" Canadian forwards of '12/13 weren't, nor were 7 of the 8 "best" Canadian defensemen of '12/13, nor any of the goalies who factored into Vezina and all-star voting at the end of the year.
That's actually far less than 70% of just the "best" players Canada had to offer last year.
Now if you're talking about 2010, here's THAT breakdown:
Only 2 of the top 13 scoring Canadian forwards went to the WC in '09/10.
6 Canadian centers got post season all-star votes in '09/10, only 1 (Stamkos, votes at both C/RW) went to the WC.
6 Canadian LWers got post season all-star votes in '09/10, NONE of them went to the WC.
Corey Perry is the only RWer (without votes at another position - see: St.Louis, Heatley, Iginla) with all-star votes to represent Canada at the '09/10 WC.
I believe not a single defenseman who represented Canada at that WC received a single vote for post season all-star, and only 1 of the 11 or 12 Canadian defensemen who got Norris votes that year (Myers) played for Canada.
Surely I don't have to get into the goaltending, lol.
That's an even lower percentage of the "best" Canadian players in the '09/10 WC than last year's.
8 of the top 13 scoring Canadian forwards from last year didn't play in the WC. Further breakdown follows:
3 of Canada's top 4 centres in post season all-star voting didn't play in the WC.
3 of Canada's top 4 RWers in all-star voting didn't play in the WC.
3 of Canada's top 4 LWers in all-star voting DID play in the WC.
Only 1 of the top 8 Canadian defensemen in post-season all star voting from last year played in the WC.
Only 1 goalie also played on the Olympic team... as 3rd goalie, and no Canadian goalie on the WC team received a single all-star or Vezina vote at the end of the year.
So whether or not over 70% was "available", only 5 of the top 13 scoring Canadian forwards were taken, while 9 of the 12 "best" Canadian forwards of '12/13 weren't, nor were 7 of the 8 "best" Canadian defensemen of '12/13, nor any of the goalies who factored into Vezina and all-star voting at the end of the year.
That's actually far less than 70% of just the "best" players Canada had to offer last year.
Now if you're talking about 2010, here's THAT breakdown:
Only 2 of the top 13 scoring Canadian forwards went to the WC in '09/10.
6 Canadian centers got post season all-star votes in '09/10, only 1 (Stamkos, votes at both C/RW) went to the WC.
6 Canadian LWers got post season all-star votes in '09/10, NONE of them went to the WC.
Corey Perry is the only RWer (without votes at another position - see: St.Louis, Heatley, Iginla) with all-star votes to represent Canada at the '09/10 WC.
I believe not a single defenseman who represented Canada at that WC received a single vote for post season all-star, and only 1 of the 11 or 12 Canadian defensemen who got Norris votes that year (Myers) played for Canada.
Surely I don't have to get into the goaltending, lol.
That's an even lower percentage of the "best" Canadian players in the '09/10 WC than last year's.
You mean guys dividing 22 teams by 30 teams didn't reach the pinnacle of quantitative analysis?
My world is shaken.
Ohashi_Jouzu*
Registered User
Canuck21t
Registered User
You probably say that because those names just happen to be on Canada's Olympic team. I know Canadian players rarely impress Russian fans because you usually are more dazzled by flashy players, but we've seen numerous times that flashiness doesn't always win championships.
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Frank the Tank
The Godfather
I think after Sochi 2014 the hockey bubble Russian players and fans have been living in has finally been burst. Winning the IIHF Championships a few times this past decade, especially the wins in 2008 and 2009 over Canada, convinced both Russian players and fans that the Russian Federation once again had the player talent and playing style to win gold on the Olympic stage. I remember Ovechkin dug up the lucky loonie from center ice in 2008 and wore it around his neck as a trophy. Things were looking great heading into the Vancouver 2010.
Then the Canada-Russia quarter-finals blowout happened, where Canada's best players demonstrated a commitment to playing 200 ft hockey and crushed Russia in the QF en route to home ice gold. Particularly damning was the fact that the KHL players were out-classed by their Canadian NHL counterparts, especially the Kozlov line and the defensemen, and even the vaunted Ovechkin-Malkin-Semin line was destroyed by a line of two-way players in Richards-Toews-Nash. The only thing that went well that game was that Datsyuk played solid as usual and his line played Crosby's to a draw. The 7-3 win by Canada was chalked up, however, to Canada benefiting from the home crowd and coming out the gate like a gorilla out of its cage. What surprised me was that according to many Russian players it had nothing to do with the deficiencies of the Russia team. It was just poor luck and we should wait until Russia has home ice we were warned. Full-sized European ice and a supportive crowd would afford Russia all the advantages Canada had in 2010.
Flash forward to Sochi 2014 and the same problems persist despite Russia having home ice and crowd support. Datsyuk is the only Russian forward capable of being elite at both ends of the rink and the Russian defense is mediocre at best. There was no sense that the Russian players were willing to do whatever it takes to win. Just like Bykov before him, Bilyaletdinov failed to create a team environment or style of play that would return Russia to glory. At least all the problems will be no longer ignored and now will be examined closely. In the near term, I think changing the coach will help because it may foster a better team culture; however, it will be all for naught unless the star Russian players buy into an effective team system. In the long term, Russia needs elite defensemen and more forwards like Datsyuk, who can play a complete game.
Then the Canada-Russia quarter-finals blowout happened, where Canada's best players demonstrated a commitment to playing 200 ft hockey and crushed Russia in the QF en route to home ice gold. Particularly damning was the fact that the KHL players were out-classed by their Canadian NHL counterparts, especially the Kozlov line and the defensemen, and even the vaunted Ovechkin-Malkin-Semin line was destroyed by a line of two-way players in Richards-Toews-Nash. The only thing that went well that game was that Datsyuk played solid as usual and his line played Crosby's to a draw. The 7-3 win by Canada was chalked up, however, to Canada benefiting from the home crowd and coming out the gate like a gorilla out of its cage. What surprised me was that according to many Russian players it had nothing to do with the deficiencies of the Russia team. It was just poor luck and we should wait until Russia has home ice we were warned. Full-sized European ice and a supportive crowd would afford Russia all the advantages Canada had in 2010.
Flash forward to Sochi 2014 and the same problems persist despite Russia having home ice and crowd support. Datsyuk is the only Russian forward capable of being elite at both ends of the rink and the Russian defense is mediocre at best. There was no sense that the Russian players were willing to do whatever it takes to win. Just like Bykov before him, Bilyaletdinov failed to create a team environment or style of play that would return Russia to glory. At least all the problems will be no longer ignored and now will be examined closely. In the near term, I think changing the coach will help because it may foster a better team culture; however, it will be all for naught unless the star Russian players buy into an effective team system. In the long term, Russia needs elite defensemen and more forwards like Datsyuk, who can play a complete game.
No, its because the other guys on the list (Subban, Kane, Lucic, etc.) are good players, but they are not going to put Canada over the top in terms of separating them from the other players from Sweden, Finland, the United States, and yes, Russia. Look at all the goal scorers from the U.S. (Kessel, Pacioretty, Kane, etc.) who failed to stand out and make a difference at the international level. Plus, Canada succeeded based on a solid defensive game plan.
Anybody who says that Canada or the US on the big ice is full of **it, but they do have to be fast, good skaters who can handle the puck well. They have to have the whole package, and still have a defensive orientation. Canada averaged 2.8 goals per game, against the likes of Norway, Austria and Latvia. Canada deserves credit going through the tourney unscathed, but it was defense rather than flashy offense that got them there, and they're not that far above the rest of the pack.
First of all, check your math - Norway 3 goals, Latvia 2, Austria 6 - overall 11 in 3 games, that's not 2.8, but 3.7
Second of all, I fully agree that the defensive play was the main factor here, but let's not be delusional. Canada could have won 6-1 against Sweden easily. They dominated offensively in that game and they played against Karlsson, Oduya, Hjlamarsson, Ericsson, Kronwall, Ekman-Larsson ...many people (from Europe mainly) claimed before the tournament that that defence was going to be the best or the second best in the tournament.
I'm not sure how far we are above the teams like Sweden or USA, but I think that the fact we are above is enough.
Canada averaged 2.8 goals for the tournament. Yes, the 6-goal outburst against Austria skews their production a bit, but it should be noted that Austria is normally assigned to a group where they compete against Belgium and Luxembourg, and I believe that they will be relegated back to that Group after their performance in Sochi.
I don't know who claimed pre-tournament that Sweden was going to be a dominant force. Maybe hopeful Swedes. They had some good offensive defensemen, but they were awful defensively. Good goaltending got them in the Gold Medal game, and then Lundquist folded up when the pressure was on. But watch out for Sweden in 2018. They have been very strong in the World Juniors since 2008, and they will be much better in 4 years. I don't know if you could say that Canada will be much better than they have been in 2010 and 2014.
habsrule4eva3089
Registered User
- Nov 22, 2008
- 4,278
- 1,084
Stamkos, Hall, Mackinnon, McDavid ...they've got quite a bunch of players coming up for 2018 if the NHL goes lol.
Maybe this is what is wrong with Russian system of development. The prettiest goal ever scored is worth only 1 on the scoreboard. A shot deflected from the point is worth the exact same. Canada is great defensively but the defense is helped by the offense. Canada dominates the neutral zone, the time of possession, and gets a lot more shots on goal. Cycling the puck around and getting it on net is more effective than hoping for incredible individual efforts.
Also Canada has more top scorers in the NHL now than they had in the 90s and early 2000s. The forwards coming up know how to score and many of them are developing as great two way players, Canada right now is looking like it will be relatively stronger in 2018 than it was in 2014.
Tom ServoMST3K
In search of a Steinbach Hero
Roll lines 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4
thats stupid. This is not novice.
My local senior hockey team knows not to do this.
thats stupid. This is not novice.
My local senior hockey team knows not to do this.
Again, I have to revert to the analysis of Brent Sutter, who, if you will recall, coached those really dominant Canadian World Junior teams in 2005-6, and then coached this past year in Sweden. He said that Canada had no real competition in those earlier years, but that the World appears to have caught up to Canada, at least as far as U20 is an indicator. His viewpoint appears to be supported by the fact that Canada has not won a Gold Medal at the WJC in the last 5 tournaments, and it has in fact failed to medal for the last 2 years. In Ufa, Canada had its only best on best team since 2005, and yet it still failed to medal.
Really strong teams from Sweden, Finland, the United States and, yes, even Russia, have emerged to successfully challenge Canada in the last 5 years. Since I have not read about any initiatives to scale back junior hockey in Canada, the only reasonable conclusion is that the well-documented efforts by hockey federations in Sweden, Finland, the United States and, yes, even Russia, to grow and substantially re-make junior hockey are starting to come to fruition. Just 5 years ago, there were no junior hockey leagues in Russia. Now, the MHL, funded and supported by the KHL and VHL, has vastly increased the number of Russian kids who have an opportunity to play hockey. Other junior leagues have sprouted up as well. I just think the World is getting better.
All those nations are getting better right now, whether or not this continues is another story. Every country had ups and downs, just like Canada went through a long drought at the juniors when they went on their first run of five, then they went on a another run of five and now are on a drought. Finland and Sweden had great junior teams in the early 90's then slid into mediocrity for quite some time, now they are back on a good roll, but they could just as easily go down again as they did before.That certain teams are doing relatively well now does not prove they will always be at this level and history has shown that.
Saying Sweden.Finland,Russia will always be on the upswing and top performers from here on out just because they have had good results lately is like saying Canada will always place top three at the juniors.Remember, all those teams have been good in the past and then hit hard times, no reason to think there is something substantially different this time where it won't or can't happen again.
Saying Sweden.Finland,Russia will always be on the upswing and top performers from here on out just because they have had good results lately is like saying Canada will always place top three at the juniors.Remember, all those teams have been good in the past and then hit hard times, no reason to think there is something substantially different this time where it won't or can't happen again.
My comments were based on the premise that Canadian hockey has been more or less maxed out for the last 30 years or so. You can tweak a little here and there, and maybe some years a Crosby or Lemieux just won't be produced, Canada has been operating at full bore for several decades now. Until recent years, other countries haven't had the infrastructure, organization and resources to be able to compete. But Sweden, Finland, and the United States are affluent countries that have proven themselves to be fully capable of greatly upgrading their hockey when they decided to make the commitment to do it. Same with Russia, which has become rich enough in recent years to start widespread rink-building activities, organizing large-scale junior leagues, and putting together the infrastructure to compete on a much higher level.
Only time will tell whether it will all last. Theoretically, Sweden could lose interest and just drop hockey altogether. But it doesn't seem like there is much chance of it.
Yeah, time will tell I guess.
My money would still be on all nations just having up and down times though.
It's just the way it tends to go.
My money would still be on all nations just having up and down times though.
It's just the way it tends to go.
Ohashi_Jouzu*
Registered User
A faulty premise, of course, based on your revealed lack of understanding when it comes to the composition, expectations/goals, and roster alternatives concerning Team Canadas of the past.
Yes, it probably is a faulty premise by him.
I wish Russian fans would stop making assumptions on Canadian hockey, time should have proven their assumptions about it are nearly always wrong.
Canadian hockey changes, it adapts, it meets challenges.
Whether it is the hand wringing over Nagano, big ice hockey, world junior failures,failure to win overseas, you name it.
Canada always steps up to the plate and reinvents itself and meets problems or questions head on and they end up succeeding, no further proof is needed of that then the recent gold on big ice on hostile Russian soil in dominating fashion.
Russian fans premises on Canadian hockey are mostly always proven to be faulty and are based on fear and ignorance. I wish I didn't have to use words such as fear and ignorance as they carry such negative connotations but there was no way to soften it.
I wish Russian fans would stop making assumptions on Canadian hockey, time should have proven their assumptions about it are nearly always wrong.
Canadian hockey changes, it adapts, it meets challenges.
Whether it is the hand wringing over Nagano, big ice hockey, world junior failures,failure to win overseas, you name it.
Canada always steps up to the plate and reinvents itself and meets problems or questions head on and they end up succeeding, no further proof is needed of that then the recent gold on big ice on hostile Russian soil in dominating fashion.
Russian fans premises on Canadian hockey are mostly always proven to be faulty and are based on fear and ignorance. I wish I didn't have to use words such as fear and ignorance as they carry such negative connotations but there was no way to soften it.
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