Ilitch wants to own Pistons, move team to Detroit (from suburb to downtown)

I would like to see a new Wings arena, and it's been rumored to be around Foxtown for years, but the timng couldn't be any worse. The city and state don't have the money to spend on another arena, and there was a lot of grumbling when the CoPa was being built.

I have no problem with the Pistons going downtown either, maybe they could just move the Palace.:sarcasm: It's a nice arena, and it would a shame to see it get mothballed. (unlike the Silverdome, which like the JLA has the charm of a bunker.)
 
I think your standard for hockey arenas is much too high if Joe Louis is "old and decrepit".

Yes you have to climb stairs to get in....yes the access to the suites is limited....yes there is only one concourse. That doesn't make it decrepit.

Joe Louis arena is just fine....it's no Staples Center or Air Canada Center....but Illitch doesn't need a new arena as badly as other teams have (Pittsburgh).

I've never had a problem with the suite access....never had a problem with the concourse...never had a problem with bathroom line ups.

I think the instant gratification wanted by fans now is showing. This building is 30 years old....Maple Leaf Gardens was 68, The Forum was 70, Chicago Stadium was 65. Those buildings closed because they didn't have the room modern buildings needs. Joe Louis has ample room.

If you ever got the chance to see a game at the Chicago Stadium...compare those concourses to those at Joe Louis Arena.

The Joe is just fine....people don't opt not to go to Red Wings game because of the building. They have time to find a new home...this isn't a pressing issue.

I'd like to know when you were at the Joe because you are describing a different arena than the one I've been going to for the last 30 years.

Ask any woman about the bathroom situation. It's pathetic. They are not nearly enough womens bathrooms. Not even close. Most women I know don't like going to the Joe for that reason alone. The men's have two stalls per restroom and troughs instead of urinals. It's common for men to use the sinks as urinals because the lines are so long.

There are no handrails going up the steps, so there have been incidents of people falling. Check the records. The steps are extremely steep trying to get your seat. Nobody with even a minor disability can make it there since there aren't any hand railings. That right there, stops people from going to the games.

The concourse is too narrow and lacking in concession stands. There's no room to move and no room to stand. It's like herding cattle. No room for a team store. That's a minor quibble but these days, money talks. Only two ways in and out of the arena and again, its a hazard with all those steps. Hardly a safe environment with herds of people going down all those steps at the same time.

The seats have no cupholders. Again, a minor detail but that does matter especially when you are paying hundreds of dollars. The seats are too small, ripped and/or taped over. Many seats are literally falling apart and some views are obstructed. The roof leaks. There's a ton of maintenance work that needs to be done inside and outside of the arena. The suites are tiny and at the top of the arena so they are largely useless and nearly impossible to get in and out of.

The basement/locker room area is too tiny. Even with renovations, the arena lacks amenities that most players are looking for. There is a lack of office space. The press box is way too small. When the Joe was built, somehow, they didnt even build a press box so it was added as an after thought and it shows. During the playoffs, the Wings have to build makeshift studios on wood and in the suites since it lacks enough space for the media. It's common for at least one set of broadcasters to be pushed to the suites since they have no place else to go.

The location of the arena is a hindrance. It's barren and looks unsafe. Surrounded by a maze of parking structures that takes hours to get out of. There's nothing to do around it and it's uninviting, not to mention it's in the way of future riverfront development i.e. a new convention center.

As far as comparing it to the Igloo, it's not much different. They suffer from many of the same problems. Sure, they could keep playing there for a few years, but it's not a pleasant place for anybody. The world has moved alot faster these past 30 years then the previous 60 which is how MLG, the Forum, etc. survived as long as they did.
 
I think your standard for hockey arenas is much too high if Joe Louis is "old and decrepit".

Yes you have to climb stairs to get in....yes the access to the suites is limited....yes there is only one concourse. That doesn't make it decrepit.

Joe Louis arena is just fine....it's no Staples Center or Air Canada Center....but Illitch doesn't need a new arena as badly as other teams have (Pittsburgh).

I've never had a problem with the suite access....never had a problem with the concourse...never had a problem with bathroom line ups.

I think the instant gratification wanted by fans now is showing. This building is 30 years old....Maple Leaf Gardens was 68, The Forum was 70, Chicago Stadium was 65. Those buildings closed because they didn't have the room modern buildings needs. Joe Louis has ample room.

If you ever got the chance to see a game at the Chicago Stadium...compare those concourses to those at Joe Louis Arena.

The Joe is just fine....people don't opt not to go to Red Wings game because of the building. They have time to find a new home...this isn't a pressing issue.

I won't add on to the comments above, but ask any regular Wings fan and we're all on the same page. You probably have never used the women's bathrooms there either. ;)

I have had to inquire about access for someone with a disability. There's one entryway, not ramped either. One side of the building, and then you take an elevator-- the same elevator that goes to the suites, so these are always full and the line is long. There's not much room between the entrance side-door (by the riverfront lot) and the elevators, so you stand outside. The number of spots for disabled people is small (for a 20K venue, it's ridiculous that it's one lot where the suites holders park as well).

It's not "fine" and is well past its "best by" date. For the record, I've been to UC, the old Chicago Stadium, and several other NHL venues. Never have been to Mellon or the Isles arena, but the Joe leaves a heck of a lot to be desired. It's well past time for Ilitch to do this.
 
Just to finish off my "reasons to build a new arena" rant, it makes business sense for the parties involved. Currently, it's very hard to get major events to the Joe. Olympia and the City of Detroit is losing that business to Oakland County and the Palace. It's been that way for 20 years and will only get worse. The Joe's location strangles any spinoff business, so Detroit lost out on bars and restaurants.

In reality, it would make sense for Ilitch to buy the Palace and move the Wings there. The Palace is in great shape and unlike the Joe, it has seen multiple improvements and maintenance work to keep it current. But Mr. I is a Detroit man - virtually all his business interests are Downtown. He stands to gain the most by keeping the Wings in the city and bringing the Pistons with them.

I'm not sure how anyone can argue that the Joe isn't outdated when we live in a world where computers are outdated right after they are bought and used. The Joe was never designed properly and certainly wasn't designed for the 21st Century and all the technology that goes with it. Even worse the Joe, was never really improved that much and it needs a lot of maintenance work that the general public doesn't see.
 
Compared to a lot of other NHL venues, the JLA is pretty old and decrepit, although I love arenas like that personally. I mean the JLA still uses troughs for urinals for petes sake.

If all of this goes through it seems to me like Illitch is pretty much the tycoon of Detroit, would there be anything in the city he doesn't own? Although I suppose he already is a tycoon of the city already.
 
Compared to a lot of other NHL venues, the JLA is pretty old and decrepit, although I love arenas like that personally. I mean the JLA still uses troughs for urinals for petes sake.

If all of this goes through it seems to me like Illitch is pretty much the tycoon of Detroit, would there be anything in the city he doesn't own? Although I suppose he already is a tycoon of the city already.

He doesn't own the Lions. The Ford family does and they also control Ford Field although Olympia was heavily involved in the development of it and does share some operations with Ford. Entertainment wise, there would still be a few independent venues left but not too many. Palace and Olympia virtually own and/or operate all the major venues in the region.
 
Just to finish off my "reasons to build a new arena" rant, it makes business sense for the parties involved. Currently, it's very hard to get major events to the Joe. Olympia and the City of Detroit is losing that business to Oakland County and the Palace. It's been that way for 20 years and will only get worse. The Joe's location strangles any spinoff business, so Detroit lost out on bars and restaurants.

In reality, it would make sense for Ilitch to buy the Palace and move the Wings there. The Palace is in great shape and unlike the Joe, it has seen multiple improvements and maintenance work to keep it current. But Mr. I is a Detroit man - virtually all his business interests are Downtown. He stands to gain the most by keeping the Wings in the city and bringing the Pistons with them.

I'm not sure how anyone can argue that the Joe isn't outdated when we live in a world where computers are outdated right after they are bought and used. The Joe was never designed properly and certainly wasn't designed for the 21st Century and all the technology that goes with it. Even worse the Joe, was never really improved that much and it needs a lot of maintenance work that the general public doesn't see.

This.

I think a lot of people just take offence when posters call the Joe "old and decrepit" when they see rinks like Mellon Arena and Maple Leafs Gardens last as long as they did.

The wings do need a new arena, but it's not a situation like Pittsburgh where they are completely desparate.... hence why you've seen the "Before 2020" timeline mentioned. It's something that they're beginning to work on, but don't expect to see groundbreaking anytime soon. If they can get that new arena with the Pistons involved....you're looking at an absolute slam dunk for the city of Detroit and Ilitch in terms of the value of his other holdings, as well as the viability of the arena....everone except the city of Auburn Hills wins.

That's a facility with 90+ premier event dates guaranteed. (41 X 2 + preseason and playoffs).... which means a great bar/restaurant atmosphere around it. That helps attract concerts and other uses for a ~20,000 seat venue in the off-times.
 
I can't see the city using public money for a stadium with the economy the way it is in Detroit/Michigan. I think Ilitch would be better off moving the Wings to the Palace and apply for public financing for a new barn if the crowds dip of if there's a fan backlash.
 
I can't see the city using public money for a stadium with the economy the way it is in Detroit/Michigan. I think Ilitch would be better off moving the Wings to the Palace and apply for public financing for a new barn if the crowds dip of if there's a fan backlash.

You have to spend money to make money... if the City of detroit wants the benefit of 90+ guaranteed event dates and a premier facility in downtown...they'll have to support it. Otherwise, it may make more sense for Ilitch to move the Wings to the Palace.... in which case the city of Detroit is now losing out on what would likely be well over 150 event dates with 20,000 people.

The economy is bad in Detroit/Michigan right now..... but you'd have to be nuts to not give Ilitch money to bring those events to Detroit.
 
I'd like to know when you were at the Joe because you are describing a different arena than the one I've been going to for the last 30 years.

Ask any woman about the bathroom situation. It's pathetic. They are not nearly enough womens bathrooms. Not even close. Most women I know don't like going to the Joe for that reason alone. The men's have two stalls per restroom and troughs instead of urinals. It's common for men to use the sinks as urinals because the lines are so long.
Troughs are great....so efficient. 'Not enough bathrooms' doesn't mean old and decrepit.
There are no handrails going up the steps, so there have been incidents of people falling. Check the records. The steps are extremely steep trying to get your seat. Nobody with even a minor disability can make it there since there aren't any hand railings. That right there, stops people from going to the games.
There is seating located in between the lower and upper bowls for the disabled. If you can't navigate stairs....sit there.

The concourse is too narrow and lacking in concession stands. There's no room to move and no room to stand. It's like herding cattle. No room for a team store. That's a minor quibble but these days, money talks. Only two ways in and out of the arena and again, its a hazard with all those steps. Hardly a safe environment with herds of people going down all those steps at the same time.
All the merchandise is for sale just the same...you buy from a counter and the clothes are on display behind the counter (unless it has changed since my last visit). Good enough.
The seats have no cupholders. Again, a minor detail but that does matter especially when you are paying hundreds of dollars. The seats are too small, ripped and/or taped over. Many seats are literally falling apart and some views are obstructed. The roof leaks. There's a ton of maintenance work that needs to be done inside and outside of the arena. The suites are tiny and at the top of the arena so they are largely useless and nearly impossible to get in and out of.
Largely useless? Nearly impossible to get in and out of? Come on. Ease up on the dramatics here a bit.
You can always replace seats...that doesn't mean anything about the building itself.

The basement/locker room area is too tiny. Even with renovations, the arena lacks amenities that most players are looking for. There is a lack of office space. The press box is way too small. When the Joe was built, somehow, they didnt even build a press box so it was added as an after thought and it shows. During the playoffs, the Wings have to build makeshift studios on wood and in the suites since it lacks enough space for the media. It's common for at least one set of broadcasters to be pushed to the suites since they have no place else to go.
This happens at many locations around the NHL. Broadcasters end up taking up several rows of seats somewhere in the arena.
If it doesn't have the amenities players are looking for...they seem to get quite a lot of incredible talent to play for them.

The location of the arena is a hindrance. It's barren and looks unsafe. Surrounded by a maze of parking structures that takes hours to get out of. There's nothing to do around it and it's uninviting, not to mention it's in the way of future riverfront development i.e. a new convention center.
Totally agree. Doesn't speak to the building itself though. Being in a less than choice location doesn't make it old and decrepit.

As far as comparing it to the Igloo, it's not much different. They suffer from many of the same problems. Sure, they could keep playing there for a few years, but it's not a pleasant place for anybody. The world has moved alot faster these past 30 years then the previous 60 which is how MLG, the Forum, etc. survived as long as they did.
The Igloo had 20 less suites and holds about 3,000 more fans.

There is no urgent need to replace Joe Louis Arena. That doesn't mean it is in a fantastic location or that it doesn't need some maintenance. The building itself though and what it is capable of holding is large/good enough that it isn't acting like an anchor on the sports franchise.

As bad as you say this building is...the Wings still averaged 19,546 fans a game in an awful Michigan economy. If the building was THAT bad or as 'old and decrepit' as people claim it is....that number wouldn't be nearly that high in rough economic times. I think the Wings are doing just fine at the Joe...they could be doing better in a new rink, for sure. But they aren't hurting because of their building like other teams have in the past.
 
Oh...also about taking that cramped elevator and being forced to park with the Luxury Suite holders about 15 feet from the door (how awful! ;) ), could you have parked in the parking garage and gone across to the arena from there to avoid all stairs and elevators?
 
The Igloo had 20 less suites and holds about 3,000 more fans.

There is no urgent need to replace Joe Louis Arena. That doesn't mean it is in a fantastic location or that it doesn't need some maintenance. The building itself though and what it is capable of holding is large/good enough that it isn't acting like an anchor on the sports franchise.

As bad as you say this building is...the Wings still averaged 19,546 fans a game in an awful Michigan economy. If the building was THAT bad or as 'old and decrepit' as people claim it is....that number wouldn't be nearly that high in rough economic times. I think the Wings are doing just fine at the Joe...they could be doing better in a new rink, for sure. But they aren't hurting because of their building like other teams have in the past.

Well the Palace at Auburn Hills has 180 luxury seats. Ilitch would own the arena and both teams. He'll have direct cash-flow and by the time 2018 is rolling around can make a claim the arena is outdated. It was an arena built ahead of its time just like the United Center or Staples Center or American Airlines center that gives it much more shelf life.
 
Well the Palace at Auburn Hills has 180 luxury seats. Ilitch would own the arena and both teams. He'll have direct cash-flow and by the time 2018 is rolling around can make a claim the arena is outdated. It was an arena built ahead of its time just like the United Center or Staples Center or American Airlines center that gives it much more shelf life.

Doesn't help his City (Detroit) or his Casino. He could definitely use the Palace as leverage when negotiating with Detroit for a new arena.

Like I said though...time is on his side. Joe Louis isn't an anchor yet.

Not sure if those other arenas can be put in the same category as the Palace. The Palace was "crazy" at the time, good thing it panned out...could have been an enormous failure just as easily.
 
Oh...also about taking that cramped elevator and being forced to park with the Luxury Suite holders about 15 feet from the door (how awful! ;) ), could you have parked in the parking garage and gone across to the arena from there to avoid all stairs and elevators?

I was talking about access for disabled people. Maybe you need to stop while you're ahead.
 
The Igloo had 20 less suites and holds about 3,000 more fans.

There is no urgent need to replace Joe Louis Arena. That doesn't mean it is in a fantastic location or that it doesn't need some maintenance. The building itself though and what it is capable of holding is large/good enough that it isn't acting like an anchor on the sports franchise.

As bad as you say this building is...the Wings still averaged 19,546 fans a game in an awful Michigan economy. If the building was THAT bad or as 'old and decrepit' as people claim it is....that number wouldn't be nearly that high in rough economic times. I think the Wings are doing just fine at the Joe...they could be doing better in a new rink, for sure. But they aren't hurting because of their building like other teams have in the past.

It's clear you and I are going to disagree and that's fine but I'd hardly use attendance as a gauge. The Igloo seemed to be selling out the last few years, so does that mean the Penguins should stay there? Of course not. It means they have devoted hockey fans who love the game and their team. Same could be said for Maple Leaf Gardens, the Forum, the list in endless. I will say that the Wings are doing more promotions and discounts compared to the last 15 years but that's more a sign of the economy than anything else.

Nobody is saying the Wings need to leave immediately, but they desperately need to make some plans before it does get into a really bad situation. I'm not sure when you think the Wings need to leave. You didn't mention that. I don't see the Joe being viable in 5 to 10 years. By the time a new arena is built, the Joe will be extremely obsolete especially compared to the other venues in the market. The maintenance and structure issues are only getting worse, not better. Does it make sense to keep spending millions of dollars a season to maintain the Joe? Ultimately that's for Olympia and the city to decide and neither of our opinions will matter much. :)
 
This may be a stupid question with an obvious answer, but is Auburn Hills legally part of the city of Detroit, or is it a city in its own right (meaning that taxes on things spent in Auburn Hills go only to Auburn Hills and not Detroit)?

If not, has there been any talk about amalgamating the city proper with its surrounding suburbs (seems like a lot of major cities are moving in that direction)
 
Auburn Hills is in a differnent county Hay

Auburn Hills = Oakland County MI or OCMI

Detroit = Wayne County MI

I really don't think wayne county wants to merge with Detroit. It would be the smart thing to do, look at Louisville and Indy, but in the Upper Midwest they fight live a bunch of children and never get anything done, which is why Indy , Cincinnati, Chicago, Toronto and Minneapolis are carrying the whole region right now.
 
This may be a stupid question with an obvious answer, but is Auburn Hills legally part of the city of Detroit, or is it a city in its own right (meaning that taxes on things spent in Auburn Hills go only to Auburn Hills and not Detroit)?

If not, has there been any talk about amalgamating the city proper with its surrounding suburbs (seems like a lot of major cities are moving in that direction)

Realize Auburn Hills is about 30 miles from Detroit. This isn't like just on the edges of the city...its pretty far out there.
 
Realize Auburn Hills is about 30 miles from Detroit. This isn't like just on the edges of the city...its pretty far out there.

We could have used someone with common sense like you here in Ottawa when we amalgamated nine years ago with neighbouring suburbs and rural areas to become a city slightly larger than the country of Luxembourg :laugh:
 
It's clear you and I are going to disagree and that's fine but I'd hardly use attendance as a gauge. The Igloo seemed to be selling out the last few years, so does that mean the Penguins should stay there? Of course not. It means they have devoted hockey fans who love the game and their team. Same could be said for Maple Leaf Gardens, the Forum, the list in endless. I will say that the Wings are doing more promotions and discounts compared to the last 15 years but that's more a sign of the economy than anything else.

Nobody is saying the Wings need to leave immediately, but they desperately need to make some plans before it does get into a really bad situation. I'm not sure when you think the Wings need to leave. You didn't mention that. I don't see the Joe being viable in 5 to 10 years. By the time a new arena is built, the Joe will be extremely obsolete especially compared to the other venues in the market. The maintenance and structure issues are only getting worse, not better. Does it make sense to keep spending millions of dollars a season to maintain the Joe? Ultimately that's for Olympia and the city to decide and neither of our opinions will matter much. :)

I'd say 10 years...then things would be getting a bit desperate. Aside from the Consol Arena in Pittsburgh and a new arena in Edmonton there aren't any new buildings on the horizon (unless Wang gets his act together and re-does the Coliseum)....and reno'd MSG I suppose. Anyway...the bulk of the 'new buildings' are done and nothing will be built in any large numbers for several decades. If the Joe is 'adequate' now with all these new rinks around the league....it will continue to be 'adequate' until all the other rinks start being replaced.

This is really Detroit's chance to leap-frog everyone and get the 'next generation' building before anyone else. So they should take their time....hang on to the Joe as long as possible while waiting for advances in architecture, revenue sources, etc. and designing a building that will be the new standard and keep Detroit ahead in this regard right up until this new building requires replacing.
 
Compromise?

Here's a location that's very close to the JLA....expand the new WFCU Arena in Windsor and move the Wings there!!:laugh:
 
I know a certain software developer and Hamilton football team owner that could learn a lesson or a hundred on how to run a sports franchise from Mr. Ilitch....

I hear that Bob Young is threatening to move the Hamilton TigerCats to Phoenix!

:laugh::laugh:
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Ad

Ad