If you had to bet on the Hart...

[Sojourn]

Mario? MacKinnon is right there with him then.

Another example of you dismissing arguments.

No one said MacKinnon is right there with him. The point was it can be done, when circumstances allow it.

I'll be the first to say I think it would take a pretty decent point gap for MacKinnon to win it if Colorado misses the playoffs, but there is precedent. It doesn't matter if it was Lemieux. What matters are the circumstances. MacKinnon is absolutely having a Hart-worthy season, and Colorado just barely falling short is quite a bit different than if they at the bottom of the league.

 

[Sojourn]

Wrong assessment on your part. At this point I don't think anyone is the favourite but the poster I quoted said that Kucherov is not the favourite anymore, basically confirming that he thinks there is a favourite but it's not Kucherov.

Based on forum discussion and media hype, sure, it's the media who are voting and they will vote for whatever flavour of the month social media favourite to not get backlash now that they votes are made public.

No, you are not allowed to play with good players, right off the HFBoard Press.

Uh huh. I believe you.

 

[Iceman]

Uh huh. I believe you.

I don't see where I say that Kucherov should be the favourite? If anything, I gladly have someone else win it and get him for a $1m less on his next contract.

"Kucherov shouldn't get it because he plays with good players, that is not the definition of the Hart trophy"

followed by your choice of:

"MacKinnon should win it because he is having a great season on a bad team"
or
"Taylor Hall should win it because his point advantage to the next best player on his team is the largest in the league"
or
"Anze Kopitar is almost carrying a poor LA Kings team with an injured Carter to the playoffs while having tons of points and playing Selke defence"
or
"Evgeni Malkin... because... he is going to... uhm... win the Art Ross and is very underrated!"


I read this all the time, I bet you do to, given your activity on this board.

Look, MacKinnon is in my top 3 for the Hart as much as in anybody else's, but what bothers me is when people dismiss a player for an award because he doesn't fit their own made up interpretation of the award. It will have a new definition next year when they mold it to fit their player of choice.

 

[Sojourn]

You're creating your own narrative here.

People are favoring MacKinnon over Kucherov because the perception is that he's doing just as much, if not more, with less. All things being equal, that's something that could influence voting in MacKinnon's favor. Kucherov was leading the way, but now that the gap is so much smaller, it's harder to see him as the favorite.

The rest of that is mostly just fans of those player's teams trying to justify reasons why their player deserves it more than others. That's not to say they aren't worthy candidates, but for the most part those arguments are coming primarily from those fanbases. With MacKinnon, my observations are that it isn't just Colorado fans saying that, but lots of fans throughout the league. Period.

So, if that post is how you're seeing it, I think it's because you're glossing over a lot of what is being said, as well as who is saying it.

 

[firstemperor]

Kucherov is the favorite IMO. Tampa is #2 in the league right now, they didn't make the playoffs last year.

 

[Sojourn]

Kucherov is the favorite IMO. Tampa is #2 in the league right now, they didn't make the playoffs last year.

They didn't make the playoffs because they were plagued by injuries. Kucherov had 85 points in 70 games last season.

If that's the argument you're going with, why wouldn't Stamkos be the Hart favorite?

It's not like there was a massive turnaround. They were viewed as a top team, but they just weren't healthy. They still almost made the playoffs.

 

[firstemperor]

They didn't make the playoffs because they were plagued by injuries. Kucherov had 85 points in 70 games last season.

If that's the argument you're going with, why wouldn't Stamkos be the Hart favorite?

It's not the only argument, nor the overarching one, but I think it provides a bit of context as to why, versus Hall, MacK, and McDavid (who would round out my top 4).

Ultimately, Tampa has been, debatably the best team in the league all year......and Kucherov is the best player on that team IMO, he drives that line more than Stamkos. That's why he would be my vote for MVP.

I don't have a horse in this race, but I think if it were simply a vote for who's the best player, it would be McDavid and it wouldn't be much of a debate.

I don't like getting into hypotheticals either with injuries. I think it's a reasonable assumption, but not an absolute given, they are anything more than a low-seed playoff team last year. Otherwise, the Oilers would have been lock for this year's playoffs as well.

But it should be noted- that a jump (either way) from an injury riddled team that barely missed the playoffs to a legitimate, ~top 2 team all year is a sizeable gap. Probably moreso than the gap from missing the playoffs->wildcard. I don't think you should discredit or overlook that notion (not saying you are).

 

[Sojourn]

It's not the only argument, nor the overarching one, but I think it provides a bit of context as to why, versus Hall, MacK, and McDavid (who would round out my top 4).

Ultimately, Tampa has been, debatably the best team in the league all year......and Kucherov is the best player on that team IMO, he drives that line more than Stamkos. That's why he would be my vote for MVP.

Your initial post seemed to strongly indicate it was a big consideration. It was two sentences, and one of them referenced their current standings, and last season's standings.

Furthermore, with that logic, you'd still be providing an argument for why MacKinnon has an edge. Last season, Colorado was last in the league. They finished the season with 48 points. The team above them finished with 69. Now they are in a playoff spot this season(it remains to be seen where they finished), with MacKinnon being, by far, their best player.

 

[Iceman]

You're creating your own narrative here.

People are favoring MacKinnon over Kucherov because the perception is that he's doing just as much, if not more, with less. All things being equal, that's something that could influence voting in MacKinnon's favor. Kucherov was leading the way, but now that the gap is so much smaller, it's harder to see him as the favorite.

The rest of that is mostly just fans of those player's teams trying to justify reasons why their player deserves it more than others. That's not to say they aren't worthy candidates, but for the most part those arguments are coming primarily from those fanbases. With MacKinnon, my observations are that it isn't just Colorado fans saying that, but lots of fans throughout the league. Period.

So, if that post is how you're seeing it, I think it's because you're glossing over a lot of what is being said, as well as who is saying it.

I'm not. I am just putting fourth what I am reading every day. I have YET to say who I think should win it, you can try to read between the lines as much as you wan't, but there is nothing there. People are clearly dismissing players because those players do not fit with their interpretation of the award, period.

I keep reading (on HFB) reasoning for player X to win the Hart that does not work as a benchmark for future Hart trophies.

 

[firstemperor]

Your initial post seemed to strongly indicate it was a big consideration. It was two sentences, and one of them referenced their current standings, and last season's standings.

Furthermore, with that logic, you'd still be providing an argument for why MacKinnon has an edge. Last season, Colorado was last in the league. They finished the season with 48 points. The team above them finished with 69. Now they are in a playoff spot this season(it remains to be seen where they finished), with MacKinnon being, by far, their best player.

Was editing my post a bit but I rationalize why in my previous post. Colorado, IMO, was a string of unfortunate events that made them historically awful. They weren't actually that bad and it's a bit of a fallacy or overstatement to use standings from ground zero to their spot this year....because this league has so much parity and things can change so much per annum.

Yes, the jump was huge, but I'm not convinced that jump is anymore of a noteable feat than ~injury riddled, non-playoff Lightning team-> ~top 1-3 team in the NHL all year. I think there is something to be said about being one of the best teams in the league all season. To me, that's more redeemable....being the best player, on the best team, all things even.....or just being the best team, in a best-on-best situation. But again, these things are inherently subjective so we may disagree on that notion.

 

[Sojourn]

Was editing my post a bit but I rationalize why in my previous post. Colorado, IMO, was a string of unfortunate events that made them historically awful. Yes, the jump was huge, but I'm not convinced that jump is anymore of a noteable feat than ~injury riddled, non-playoff Lightning team-> ~top 1-3 team in the NHL all year. I think there is something to be said about being one of the best teams in the league all season.

(In part responding to your previous edits too)

I feel like you're ignoring certain aspects. You seem to be dismissing what Tampa could have done last season, but the previous season they were solidly in the playoffs and went all the way to the Cup Finals. The season before that, they went to the Conference Finals, and were also solidly in the playoffs(2 points shy of tying for the Division Championship). All the evidence supported them as a strong contender. Tampa Bay was a 97 points team, and a 108 point team prior to last season. This didn't just come out of nowhere. That gap you're suggesting is not nearly the size you're suggesting, unless you're simply looking at this season and last.

At the same time, you seem to be dismissing Colorado's drop as just unlucky, but the prior two seasons they were also not in the playoffs.

That's not adding up to me. You're not applying your argument equally.

 

[spiny norman]

Lopsided result.