I've been thinking of doing this for some time, and as I have nothing much better to do at the moment, I though now would be as good a time as any. I thought it might make an interesting project to retrospectively reevaluate some of the more pivotal matchups of ATD past, and pass judgment on the teams based on what we know now. This obviously works better with ATDs that are several years old by now.
Anyway, I thought I'd start it off with a look back at the ATD#10 Jim Robson Finals, between the San Francisco Spiders and Victoria Secrets. This was to decide the winner of what was to that point the single toughest division I had ever seen (nevermind been in), featuring the two teams you'll see below, plus one of pitseleh's always dangerous squads and at least one more high quality franchise. Here is the series thread:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=583059
As you can see, two strong teams. San Francisco would eventually prevail in a historically close series and go on to win the Milt Dunnell Cup, but looking back at the teams as they were, I'm not entirely sure that the result would be the same if they were to meet each other in the playoffs today. As I remember the ATD pretty clearly as it was back then, I'll point out the differences between our perceptions of players then and now.
San Francisco:
- Bucyk: probably seen as something more of a compiler now than then. His star hasn't fallen very far, but I think it has waned a bit.
- Maltsev: has risen steadily since that draft, and is now in his rightful place as a fringe top-120 all-time player.
- Litzenberger: stock has fallen. He was one of pappy's favorites, and was overvalued at that point.
- Foyston: stock has risen steadily.
- Prentice, McKenney, Ellis, Stuart, Adams: pretty much all of San Francisco's bottom liners have increased in perceived value since then.
- Lidstrom: stock has risen a bit higher. There were actually some sharp criticisms when I drafted Nick 18th in the 1st round that year...criticisms which would seem silly now.
- Hod Stuart: stock has risen substantially.
- Fuhr: stock has fallen a bit relative to other goalies (like Belfour).
Victoria:
- Neely: stock has fallen. Cam was consistently overrated by the "rock-em-sock-em" GMs of that era.
- Stevens: stock has fallen a good deal.
- Darragh: stock has fallen a lot. He was terribly overrated because of the recently discovered retro Conn-Smythe project.
- Dunderdale and Odie Cleghorn: both have risen substantially in value.
- Boucher: has risen in value with concerns about his skating erased and proof of postseason glory (largely my doing).
- Joe Simpson: stock has risen a good deal, mostly thanks to overpass' work.
- Brimsek: stock has risen.
All of the above just IMO, which is only meant to offer some reference as to what we thought of the respective players at that time. Looking at the teams, I find it hard to pick a winner. San Francisco's biggest advantages are somewhat stronger 1st line wingers, a much stronger 2nd line and a much stronger #2 defenseman. Victoria's advantages are Mario Lemieux, a stronger #4 D, a much stronger #5 D and a stronger goalie (though I still maintain that Fuhr was a great playoff goalie).
It seems that, now as then, this would be a very close series, and to be honest, I might be inclined to go with Victoria, especially if they could find a way to make good use of Joe Simpson and that very strong offensive 4th line. What say you all? It's important to remember that ATD results are not an absolute judgment of the true greatness of the players, but an indication of where we are as a community at the time they are rendered, as well as (for better or worse) a judgment on the rhetoric and manners of their respective GMs (I had much better manners back then...).
Anyway, I thought I'd start it off with a look back at the ATD#10 Jim Robson Finals, between the San Francisco Spiders and Victoria Secrets. This was to decide the winner of what was to that point the single toughest division I had ever seen (nevermind been in), featuring the two teams you'll see below, plus one of pitseleh's always dangerous squads and at least one more high quality franchise. Here is the series thread:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=583059
San Francisco Spiders
co-GMs: Sturminator & Transplanted Caper
Coach: Cecil Hart
Johnny Bucyk (A) - Joe Sakic (C) - Alexander Maltsev
Frank Foyston - Denis Savard - Ed Litzenberger
Dean Prentice - Don McKenney - Ron Ellis
Bruce Stuart - Jack Adams - Dirk Graham
extras: Fred Stanfield, Vladimir Vikulov
Bill Gadsby - Niklas Lidstrom (A)
Hod Stuart - Cy Wentworth
Phil Russell - Bert Corbeau
extra: Rod Seiling
Grant Fuhr
Dave Kerr
Power play units:
PP1: Bucyk - Sakic - Foyston - Maltsev - Lidstrom
PP2: McKenney - Savard - Litzenberger - Stuart - Gadsby
Penalty killing units:
PK1: Sakic - Graham - Lidstrom - Wentworth
PK2: Prentice - Maltsev - Stuart - Gadsby
Victoria Secrets
co-GMs: MXD & Jungosi
Coach: Pete Green
Bert Olmstead - Mario Lemieux (C) - Cam Neely
Kevin Stevens - Jacques Lemaire (A) - Jack Darragh
Bobby Holik - Phil Watson - Bobby Rousseau
Don Maloney - Tom Dunderdale - Odie Cleghorn
extras: Bernie Nicholls, Murray Murdoch
Sprague Cleghorn - Herb Gardiner
George Boucher (A) - Bill White
Bullet Joe Simpson - Taffy Abel
extra: Glen Harmon
Frank Brimsek
Vladimir Dzurilla
Power play units:
PP1: Olmstead - Lemieux - Neely - Cleghorn - Boucher
PP2: Stevens - Lemaire - Darragh - Simpson - Gardiner
Penalty killing units:
PK1: Rousseau - Watson - White - Abel
PK2: Holik - Maloney - Gardiner - Boucher
co-GMs: Sturminator & Transplanted Caper
Coach: Cecil Hart
Johnny Bucyk (A) - Joe Sakic (C) - Alexander Maltsev
Frank Foyston - Denis Savard - Ed Litzenberger
Dean Prentice - Don McKenney - Ron Ellis
Bruce Stuart - Jack Adams - Dirk Graham
extras: Fred Stanfield, Vladimir Vikulov
Bill Gadsby - Niklas Lidstrom (A)
Hod Stuart - Cy Wentworth
Phil Russell - Bert Corbeau
extra: Rod Seiling
Grant Fuhr
Dave Kerr
Power play units:
PP1: Bucyk - Sakic - Foyston - Maltsev - Lidstrom
PP2: McKenney - Savard - Litzenberger - Stuart - Gadsby
Penalty killing units:
PK1: Sakic - Graham - Lidstrom - Wentworth
PK2: Prentice - Maltsev - Stuart - Gadsby
Victoria Secrets
co-GMs: MXD & Jungosi
Coach: Pete Green
Bert Olmstead - Mario Lemieux (C) - Cam Neely
Kevin Stevens - Jacques Lemaire (A) - Jack Darragh
Bobby Holik - Phil Watson - Bobby Rousseau
Don Maloney - Tom Dunderdale - Odie Cleghorn
extras: Bernie Nicholls, Murray Murdoch
Sprague Cleghorn - Herb Gardiner
George Boucher (A) - Bill White
Bullet Joe Simpson - Taffy Abel
extra: Glen Harmon
Frank Brimsek
Vladimir Dzurilla
Power play units:
PP1: Olmstead - Lemieux - Neely - Cleghorn - Boucher
PP2: Stevens - Lemaire - Darragh - Simpson - Gardiner
Penalty killing units:
PK1: Rousseau - Watson - White - Abel
PK2: Holik - Maloney - Gardiner - Boucher
As you can see, two strong teams. San Francisco would eventually prevail in a historically close series and go on to win the Milt Dunnell Cup, but looking back at the teams as they were, I'm not entirely sure that the result would be the same if they were to meet each other in the playoffs today. As I remember the ATD pretty clearly as it was back then, I'll point out the differences between our perceptions of players then and now.
San Francisco:
- Bucyk: probably seen as something more of a compiler now than then. His star hasn't fallen very far, but I think it has waned a bit.
- Maltsev: has risen steadily since that draft, and is now in his rightful place as a fringe top-120 all-time player.
- Litzenberger: stock has fallen. He was one of pappy's favorites, and was overvalued at that point.
- Foyston: stock has risen steadily.
- Prentice, McKenney, Ellis, Stuart, Adams: pretty much all of San Francisco's bottom liners have increased in perceived value since then.
- Lidstrom: stock has risen a bit higher. There were actually some sharp criticisms when I drafted Nick 18th in the 1st round that year...criticisms which would seem silly now.
- Hod Stuart: stock has risen substantially.
- Fuhr: stock has fallen a bit relative to other goalies (like Belfour).
Victoria:
- Neely: stock has fallen. Cam was consistently overrated by the "rock-em-sock-em" GMs of that era.
- Stevens: stock has fallen a good deal.
- Darragh: stock has fallen a lot. He was terribly overrated because of the recently discovered retro Conn-Smythe project.
- Dunderdale and Odie Cleghorn: both have risen substantially in value.
- Boucher: has risen in value with concerns about his skating erased and proof of postseason glory (largely my doing).
- Joe Simpson: stock has risen a good deal, mostly thanks to overpass' work.
- Brimsek: stock has risen.
All of the above just IMO, which is only meant to offer some reference as to what we thought of the respective players at that time. Looking at the teams, I find it hard to pick a winner. San Francisco's biggest advantages are somewhat stronger 1st line wingers, a much stronger 2nd line and a much stronger #2 defenseman. Victoria's advantages are Mario Lemieux, a stronger #4 D, a much stronger #5 D and a stronger goalie (though I still maintain that Fuhr was a great playoff goalie).
It seems that, now as then, this would be a very close series, and to be honest, I might be inclined to go with Victoria, especially if they could find a way to make good use of Joe Simpson and that very strong offensive 4th line. What say you all? It's important to remember that ATD results are not an absolute judgment of the true greatness of the players, but an indication of where we are as a community at the time they are rendered, as well as (for better or worse) a judgment on the rhetoric and manners of their respective GMs (I had much better manners back then...).
If any of the teams listed above had won this ATD, I would have no problem with it.
(that must be his lowest draft position ever in the ATDs)
