If the NBA Finals MVP was like the Conn Smythe

[LightningStorm]

Since I think the postseason award is better when its for the whole playoffs instead of just the finals, I decided to take a look at every NBA FMVP since 1990, and who would've been different had it been like the Conn Smythe. Like 2003 Giguere, I think a player on the losing team would need to be a clear cut outlier to win it. Here's what I came up with:

2004 (Maybe): Billips had great finals and was the easy choice for FMVP, though I thought Hamilton was more consistent round to round. If I was forced to choose I'd go Billups, but neither would be a wrong choice.

2005: Ginobili over Duncan. I thought Manu should've won FMVP for similar reasons, as he shot the ball a lot more efficiently in the 2005 playoffs. And while Duncan and Bruce Bowen always got most of the credit for the Spurs great defense. it was Ginobili who also limited 2 great jump shooters in Ray Allen and Richard Hamilton that postseason.

2007: Duncan over Parker. After losing one in 2005, Duncan gets one back in 2007. Parker lit up the Cavs subpar backcourt in the finals, but that was a weak all around team who just happened to have one of the GOAT's in Lebron. In the first 3 round, which included much better teams in the Suns and Jazz, Duncan was their best player as usual.

2008: Garnett over Pierce. Allen was the rightful FMVP, as he shot the ball better and was much more consistent, in addition to shooting over 50% from 3. Plus there was a large sample size of 3's, cause this is Allen we're talking about here. For the playoffs though, Garnett would've definitely been my choice. Leading scorer and best defender on the Celtics.

2014 is another close one between Kawhi Leonard and the rest of the Spurs big 3. This is a case though where Kawhi being FMVP serves as the tiebreaker, since the finals did feature the Spurs best opponent in the 2 time defending champion Heat. Kawhi being their best player in that series is enough for him to win the close race for playoff MVP.

2015: Curry over Iguodala. Iggy is the one FMVP on this list who would get zero votes if it were for the whole playoffs. Lebron was the best player that postseason overall, though the gap between him and Curry wasn't large enough to give it to a player on the losing team, as Curry's superior efficiency shortens the gap. Though with Curry not being at his level he'd been at in the finals, I thought Lebron deserved FMVP in a losing effort, as the gap between him and the rest of the players was large. But as I said, for the whole playoffs his gap wasn't large enough from Curry for me to make the exception of giving the MVP to a player not on the winning team.

2018: Lebron over Durant. This is an example where Lebron was a clear outlier and was the playoff MVP despite losing in the finals. Averaged 34 pts, 9 rebounds and 9 assists a game on 54% shooting. Carried a mediocre Cavs team (who had traded Kyrie Irving to the Celtics in the offseason) to the finals. Durant didn't carry a load like that, as he and Curry were co-superstars on that Warriors team. Like 2003 Gigure, Lebron would've had this playoff MVP wrapped up after making it the finals, regardless of the finals result.

Fitting that 3 of the 5 definite changes (2005, 2008 & 2015) involve a player who I thought shouldn't have even won FMVP in the first place. Though 2005 is the only one where I thought the worthy FMVP was also playoff MVP.

What do you guys think? And what's your preference between playoff vs finals for postseason MVP?

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[MVP of West Hollywd]

The team's star player would win almost every time. It's hard to convince anyone that over 4 rounds that the superstar wasn't the most valuable, only when it's a finals can you get situations like Iguodala over Curry or Parker over Duncan.

 

[LightningStorm]

The team's star player would win almost every time. It's hard to convince anyone that over 4 rounds that the superstar wasn't the most valuable, only when it's a finals can you get situations like Iguodala over Curry or Parker over Duncan.

Pretty much. Ginobili over Duncan is the lone exception. Garnett over Pierce and Lebron over Durant are simply a case of one superstar winning over another, while Duncan over Parker and Curry over Iguodala are where the best player wins over a star (or supporting star in Iggy's case).

 

[MVP of West Hollywd]

I disagree that Manu beats Duncan in 05, Duncan didn't have a great finals shooting % wise and still managed to win so if the whole playoffs was included I have a hard time seeing it changing when Duncan is so clearly the team's alpha star.

Pierce still wins as in addition to Finals he did go toe to toe with Lebron in Game 7, and KG's status as the Celtics clear best player was probably not appreciated enough at the time

I would say Duncan beats Kawhi in 14, Kawhi's FMVP relies on guarding Lebron in the finals, and it was not even clear he was more of a star than a role player yet although looking at some advanced stats he already has a case for their best player. Duncan gets kind of a 16 Crosby playoff MVP here.

2018 I don't see Lebron getting loser playoff MVP on a team that got swept. He has a better case in 2015 but the same was true of the Finals MVP which he lost. The finals makes the difference here with Durant winning.

 

[LightningStorm]

I disagree that Manu beats Duncan in 05, Duncan didn't have a great finals shooting % wise and still managed to win so if the whole playoffs was included I have a hard time seeing it changing when Duncan is so clearly the team's alpha star.

You're probably right that Duncan still would've won playoff MVP, but I think Manu should've, like the finals. Not just because he was more efficient on offense, but as mentioned in my OP, his defense on Allen and Hamilton in the playoffs was crucial. I guess its easy to forget his defensive contributions since the Spurs elite D was basically wholly attributed to Duncan and Bruce Bowen.

Pierce still wins as in addition to Finals he did go toe to toe with Lebron in Game 7, and KG's status as the Celtics clear best player was probably not appreciated enough at the time

But even for the Cavs series, KG was still the best player. Him and Pierce averaged the same amount but KG shot a lot better while also being their best rebounder and defender. Pierce's 41 point game 7 was the most important single game performance of those playoffs, but KG was their best player throughout it, just like he was their best player in general.

I would say Duncan beats Kawhi in 14, Kawhi's FMVP relies on guarding Lebron in the finals, and it was not even clear he was more of a star than a role player yet although looking at some advanced stats he already has a case for their best player. Duncan gets kind of a 16 Crosby playoff MVP here.

The 2014 Spurs were like the 2016 Pens in how it was a championship by committee with no single player really jumping out. No wrong answer between Kawhi, Duncan and Parker. Though I don't see how one could think that both 2005 stays pat for Duncan for the whole playoffs while also thinking 2014 changes from Kawhi from Duncan. Kawhi shot the ball better all playoffs and was also now their best perimeter defender, playing the role Bowen previously played. For me personally, I think the whole playoffs were so close among those 3 that I use Kawhi having the best finals as a tiebreak.

2018 I don't see Lebron getting loser playoff MVP on a team that got swept. He has a better case in 2015 but the same was true of the Finals MVP which he lost. The finals makes the difference here with Durant winning.

I agree that getting swept in the finals wouldn't look good for a loser playoff MVP. However, where this differs from 2015 IMO is by the time the CF's concluded, I believe Lebron would've had the PMVP clinched by then. In 2015, he didn't have it clinched yet, as Curry was right there with him for the first 3 rounds. Ironically the finals widened the gap in favor of Lebron, in spite of his team losing. Lebron even had a great finals in 2018, his team was just completely overmatched.

 

[LightningStorm]

For the Shaq/Kobe Lakers 3-peat, there's some who believe Kobe might've won MVP in 2001 and/or 2002 if it were the playoffs. However, I still think Shaq wins all 3 years. Everyone knows he was the best in 2000.

2001 is the best case Kobe has. Through the first 3 rounds, he was the best player, and IMO the Kings and Spurs were the 2 best teams the Lakers played that postseason. But Shaq was right behind him, and his much better finals definitively put him ahead of Kobe that postseason.

2002 is Shaq by an even clearer margin. Kobe once again was better vs the Spurs, but Shaq having the better series vs the Kings and Nets makes him the clear choice here.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

For the Shaq/Kobe Lakers 3-peat, there's some who believe Kobe might've won MVP in 2001 and/or 2002 if it were the playoffs. However, I still think Shaq wins all 3 years. Everyone knows he was the best in 2000.

2001 is the best case Kobe has. Through the first 3 rounds, he was the best player, and IMO the Kings and Spurs were the 2 best teams the Lakers played that postseason. But Shaq was right behind him, and his much better finals definitively put him ahead of Kobe that postseason.

2002 is Shaq by an even clearer margin. Kobe once again was better vs the Spurs, but Shaq having the better series vs the Kings and Nets makes him the clear choice here.

Even then, in 2001 it's a hard sell to say Kobe over Shaq when Shaq had 30 points and 15 boards a game in the playoffs.

I'd argue Shaq had the better series in 01 against the Kings as well. Hell, the man had back to back 40/20 games. Just look at his game 1 line: 44 pts, 21 reb, 7 blocks

 

[LightningStorm]

Even then, in 2001 it's a hard sell to say Kobe over Shaq when Shaq had 30 points and 15 boards a game in the playoffs.

I'd argue Shaq had the better series in 01 against the Kings as well. Hell, the man had back to back 40/20 games. Just look at his game 1 line: 44 pts, 21 reb, 7 blocks

Yeah the 01 Kings series was 50/50. While the claim that Shaq carried Kobe only applies to 2000, Shaq was still better in the later 2, and him being the best player of that Lakers dynasty is beyond dispute.

 

[frisco]

Going back to the 80's:

1980: Kareem over Magic.

1981: Bird over Cornbread Maxwell.

1988: Magic over Worthy.

My Best-Carey

 

[Vamos Rafa]

Finals MVP rarely goes to players who aren’t the top 2 players on the team in the first place. A Conn Smythe-type award in the NBA would make it absolutely impossible to go to a surprise winner.

 

[Alexandre Achutti]

Jordan in 1989 and 1990.

 

[Harry Kakalovich]

Since I think the postseason award is better when its for the whole playoffs instead of just the finals, I decided to take a look at every NBA FMVP since 1990, and who would've been different had it been like the Conn Smythe. Like 2003 Giguere, I think a player on the losing team would need to be a clear cut outlier to win it. Here's what I came up with:

2004 (Maybe): Billips had great finals and was the easy choice for FMVP, though I thought Hamilton was more consistent round to round. If I was forced to choose I'd go Hamilton, but neither would be a wrong choice.

2005: Ginobili over Duncan. I thought Manu should've won FMVP for similar reasons, as he shot the ball a lot more efficiently in the 2005 playoffs. And while Duncan and Bruce Bowen always got most of the credit for the Spurs great defense. it was Ginobili who also limited 2 great jump shooters in Ray Allen and Richard Hamilton that postseason.

2007: Duncan over Parker. After losing one in 2005, Duncan gets one back in 2007. Parker lit up the Cavs subpar backcourt in the finals, but that was a weak all around team who just happened to have one of the GOAT's in Lebron. In the first 3 round, which included much better teams in the Suns and Jazz, Duncan was their best player as usual.

2008: Garnett over Pierce. Allen was the rightful FMVP, as he shot the ball better and was much more consistent, in addition to shooting over 50% from 3. Plus there was a large sample size of 3's, cause this is Allen we're talking about here. For the playoffs though, Garnett would've definitely been my choice. Leading scorer and best defender on the Celtics.

2014 is another close one between Kawhi Leonard and the rest of the Spurs big 3. This is a case though where Kawhi being FMVP serves as the tiebreaker, since the finals did feature the Spurs best opponent in the 2 time defending champion Heat. Kawhi being their best player in that series is enough for him to win the close race for playoff MVP.

2015: Curry over Iguodala. Iggy is the one FMVP on this list who would get zero votes if it were for the whole playoffs. Lebron was the best player that postseason overall, though the gap between him and Curry wasn't large enough to give it to a player on the losing team, as Curry's superior efficiency shortens the gap. Though with Curry not being at his level he'd been at in the finals, I thought Lebron deserved FMVP in a losing effort, as the gap between him and the rest of the players was large. But as I said, for the whole playoffs his gap wasn't large enough from Curry for me to make the exception of giving the MVP to a player not on the winning team.

2018: Lebron over Durant. This is an example where Lebron was a clear outlier and was the playoff MVP despite losing in the finals. Averaged 34 pts, 9 rebounds and 9 assists a game on 54% shooting. Carried a mediocre Cavs team (who had traded Kyrie Irving to the Celtics in the offseason) to the finals. Durant didn't carry a load like that, as he and Curry were co-superstars on that Warriors team. Like 2003 Gigure, Lebron would've had this playoff MVP wrapped up after making it the finals, regardless of the finals result.

Fitting that 3 of the 5 definite changes (2005, 2008 & 2015) involve a player who I thought shouldn't have even won FMVP in the first place. Though 2005 is the only one where I thought the worthy FMVP was also playoff MVP.

What do you guys think? And what's your preference between playoff vs finals for postseason MVP?

Rip Hamilton was great but Billups was MVP no doubt for me. Mr. Big Shot.

 

[Maestro84]

For the Shaq/Kobe Lakers 3-peat, there's some who believe Kobe might've won MVP in 2001 and/or 2002 if it were the playoffs. However, I still think Shaq wins all 3 years. Everyone knows he was the best in 2000.

2001 is the best case Kobe has. Through the first 3 rounds, he was the best player, and IMO the Kings and Spurs were the 2 best teams the Lakers played that postseason. But Shaq was right behind him, and his much better finals definitively put him ahead of Kobe that postseason.

2002 is Shaq by an even clearer margin. Kobe once again was better vs the Spurs, but Shaq having the better series vs the Kings and Nets makes him the clear choice here.

As tragic and devastating as Kobe's death was, it doesn't change what happened on court. Shaq was clearly the best player during that 3-peat, there's a reason why 09/10 were so crucial to Kobe's legacy because he finally won rings with him as their best player

 

[Maestro84]

I feel like it wouldn't be changed too much because the NBA is far more star-driven than the NHL. Last 30 years:

1991 - MJ
1992 - MJ
1993 - MJ
1994 - Hakeem
1995 - Hakeem
1996 - MJ
1997 - MJ
1998 - MJ
1999 - Duncan
2000 - Shaq
2001 - Shaq
2002 - Shaq
2003 - Duncan
2004 - this one could've went to multiple guys
2005 - Duncan
2006 - Wade
2007 - Duncan (change here)
2008 - Garnett (change here too)
2009 - Kobe
2010 - Kobe
2011 - Dirk
2012 - LeBron
2013 - LeBron
2014 - this one could've went to multiple guys too
2015 - Curry (change here too)
2016 - LeBron
2017 - KD
2018 - as OP said, this could've been a Giguere situation
2019 - Kawhi
2020 - LeBron
2021 - Giannis

 

[LightningStorm]

Going back to the 80's:

1980: Kareem over Magic.

1981: Bird over Cornbread Maxwell.

1988: Magic over Worthy.

My Best-Carey

With regards to 1980, a large reason Magic won it was because he scored 42 in the clinching game 6 while filling in at center for an injured Kareem. Sportswriter Elliot Kalb summed it up best when (to paraphrase) he said Kareem was the true MVP of the finals, while Magic was the MVP of game 6. Expanding the sample size to the whole playoffs would've made Kareem the even easier choice.

Side note, this reminds me of how the Dr. J 76ers lost 3 finals (1977, 1980 and 1982) due to getting dominated inside by Walton them Jabbar twice. But then they added Moses Malone in 1983 and had among the most dominant seasons ever, winning 65 regular season games and only once in the playoffs. This ended with them sweeping the Lakers, and Malone winning finals MVP after outplaying Jabbar, albeit a 35 year old Kareem.

 

[frisco]

Side note, this reminds me of how the Dr. J 76ers lost 3 finals (1977, 1980 and 1982) due to getting dominated inside by Walton them Jabbar twice. But then they added Moses Malone in 1983 and had among the most dominant seasons ever, winning 65 regular season games and only once in the playoffs. This ended with them sweeping the Lakers, and Malone winning finals MVP after outplaying Jabbar, albeit a 35 year old Kareem.

Worthy was out in 1983 and Wilkes had some intestinal issues or something. Philly likely would've won but it'd have been nice to see L.A. at 100% to try to defend the title.

My Best-Carey

 

[LightningStorm]

Worthy was out in 1983 and Wilkes had some intestinal issues or something. Philly likely would've won but it'd have been nice to see L.A. at 100% to try to defend the title.

My Best-Carey

Based on what I know about each team (wasn't alive then), I think Philly wins in 6 if the Lakers were more healthy. The 1983 76ers were a great team, but no one is sweeping the Showtime Lakers at their best.

With regards to 1988 also making your 80's list, I thought Magic also should've won FMVP that season, in addition to being the best player of the whole playoffs.

 

[frisco]

With regards to 1988 also making your 80's list, I thought Magic also should've won FMVP that season, in addition to being the best player of the whole playoffs.

Pretty much a toss up between Magic and Worthy in the Finals in 1988. Worthy was so good in Game Seven (36 points, 16 rebounds, 10 assists, 2 steals). That probably put him slightly ahead in the mind of the voters.

My Best-Carey

 

[LightningStorm]

Rip Hamilton was great but Billups was MVP no doubt for me. Mr. Big Shot.

Thanks for catching that, as I meant to say Billups and edited it to reflect that. He was the floor general of that team.

 

[LightningStorm]

Was thinking about how my 5 changes (2005, 2007, 2008, 2015, 2018) would alter some player legacies based on what I think would've occurred. I don't put too much stock in awards, especially since this award usually goes to the best player on the winning team, so this is more about how fan/media narratives would've been different.

2005 and 2007 Spurs: Nothing changes for Duncan, as they offset each other. But in this scenario, Ginobili is the other member of the Big 3 who wins a playoff MVP instead of Parker.

2008: After that ridiculous narrative that Garnett couldn't win in the playoffs despite his Minnesota team being one not even Jordan or Lebron could've won a title with, winning PO MVP in 2008 would've further demonstrated how idiotic that narrative was. Mainly because in this case, he wins a ring and PO MVP in his first season having a championship caliber supporting cast.

2015: A PO MVP for Curry in his first finals means the "Steph Curry Finals MVP virgin" narrative never takes hold.

2018: A PO MVP for Lebron would've further demonstrated the all time great postseason he had, and made this a bigger talking point when talking about his playoff career as a whole.

Funny, the 2015 and 2018 changes would mean Curry has more playoff MVP's than Durant, when even with Curry finally winning finals MVP last season, Durant still has him beat 2-1.