If Orr started playing in todays NHL

[Rhiessan71]

Where did i suggest that he was helped by those treatments?

Let me clarify so that it is perfectly clear here.

The poster i was responding to seemed to imply that if Mario was totally healthy that he would have been more dominant and I'm not sure we can say one way or the other on how much different it would have been had he had Wayne's health except to say this,

I'm pretty sure that if Mario had enjoyed the health that Wayne did that he still would have had a PPG drop off from his peak at age 22 but his PPG would not have been as erratic as it was with his less than healthy seasons after that.

I'll get back to my overall point here in that even the best of the best had their peak seasons (Wayne, Bobby and Mario) and some fluctuations and drop off for various reasons including, aging, injuries and the changing nature of the league they played in as well.

both Wayne and Mario peaked earlier stat wise than woudl be expected and some of this is due to the changing nature of the NHL they played in.

Why is that so hard to see?

Does it take away from how great they were?

Not in my mind and I'm not sure why it seems to offend so many people in this forum.

I'm not sure how many more times this can be said to you but I'll do so again just so it might finally find it's way home.
No one is disagreeing that getting 200 points in a season is prolly not something even Gretzky would be capable of today.
The only thing that has been argued is that Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr would still dominate everyone else in the league today.

You can continue to argue what the raw numbers would be in that domination and quite frankly, I could care less.
The real point and the only thing that really matters is that they would still dominate and still noticeably stand above anyone else.

I mean even by your own admission, you believe Gretzky would only be around 150 points today.
Now, while I personally find that number to be conservative, it's still a hell of a lot more than anyone is even remotely close to today.

Like I said though, by all means please continue to argue about what their level of dominance would be but either way, they WOULD STILL dominate period!
You have all but confirmed that yourself.

 

[Rhiessan71]

See my post before this one and if you can't read I'll say it once again, Mario was the most offensively gifted and skilled guy I have ever seen.

To say that and to suggest that maybe he would score 150 points in todays NHL and not be considered the best player (Sid and his 130 pace and 2 way game might be considered more valuable in today's game).

There is a reason why a guy like Johnathan Toews is seen as more valuable than a guy like Joe Thorton in today's game.

The same would apply to even a guy like Lemieux supposing the 150-130 point example listed above IMO.

As for your last comment it's not about right or wrong or black or white but how credible an argument is and how much water it holds and frankly it very subjective to say that even the past big 3 would be able to dominate in any way near how they did back in their day and hard to quantify given the change in the landscape of the NHL in 2010.

Don't you dare try and present Crosby's "130 point pace" as a viable argument when you won't even acknowledge Mario's "pace" from 00/01. Do the words "too small of a sample size" or "maintaining that pace over a full season" sound in any way familiar to you???

As far as credibility goes, I tend to give that to what players actually did do against players that we have seen recently that have also played against today's players.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Don't you dare try and present Crosby's "130 point pace" as a viable argument when you won't even acknowledge Mario's "pace" from 00/01. Do the words "too small of a sample size" or "maintaining that pace over a full season" sound in any way familiar to you???

As far as credibility goes, I tend to give that to what players actually did do against players that we have seen recently that have also played against today's players.

Hook, line and sinker

 

[Rhiessan71]

Hook, line and sinker

Nice try but I do not have an issue with using either players "pace" to make a point.
I was simply pointing out the sheer hypocrisy of YOU doing it.

Believe me, if me accepting a 24 year old Crosby's 130 point pace means you would accept a 36 year old Lemieux's 145 point pace, I would agree to that in less than a heartbeat.

The hook, line and sinker bit was you a few pages back in post #235 and you know it my friend

 

[Hardyvan123]

Nice try but I do not have an issue with using either players "pace" to make a point.
I was simply pointing out the sheer hypocrisy of YOU doing it.

Believe me, if me accepting a 24 year old Crosby's 130 point pace means you would accept a 36 year old Lemieux's 145 point pace, I would agree to that in less than a heartbeat.

The hook, line and sinker bit was you a few pages back in post #235 and you know it my friend

Look I'm never a big fan of samples without looking at what happened before and after and in the case of Mario his 1.77 PPG (age 35) was preceded by a 1.61 in 76 games (age 31) and then a 1.29 (24 games) and 1.36 (67 games).

I know that I probably should have mentioned before that context has some meaning to me, my apologies.

Given that Sid is 23 this year and rising his pace might not have stayed at 130 but it most certainly could have reached 120, something that he has done before. Hopefully his concussion problems will let us see his progress to next season as well.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Look I'm never a big fan of samples without looking at what happened before and after and in the case of Mario his 1.77 PPG (age 35) was preceded by a 1.61 in 76 games (age 31) and then a 1.29 (24 games) and 1.36 (67 games).

I know that I probably should have mentioned before that context has some meaning to me, my apologies.

Given that Sid is 23 this year and rising his pace might not have stayed at 130 but it most certainly could have reached 120, something that he has done before. Hopefully his concussion problems will let us see his progress to next season as well.

Oh by all means lets talk context then.
How about Jagr in context or maybe Bourque in Context or Recchi or Sakic or Yzerman or Lidstrom.
Oh wait I have some context....it's freakin Mario Lemieux!

But ok I'll play along and even use your context of his 91 points in 67 games, a 112 point pace, the guy is 38 years old, his back is all but pooched and it was one of the lowest scoring years in the last 40 years during the height of the DPE...still producing at a 112 point pace.

Yeah call me unreasonable to project him getting juuuuust a few more points than that if he was Crosby's age with today's rule changes

Like seriously dude, c'mon already.

 

[Dark Shadows]

Look I'm never a big fan of samples without looking at what happened before and after and in the case of Mario his 1.77 PPG (age 35) was preceded by a 1.61 in 76 games (age 31) and then a 1.29 (24 games) and 1.36 (67 games).

His age 31 was also the season he retired because his back was so bad and needed rehab badly.

And we all know how injuries continued to pile on after his comeback season.

I know that I probably should have mentioned before that context has some meaning to me, my apologies.

Given that Sid is 23 this year and rising his pace might not have stayed at 130 but it most certainly could have reached 120, something that he has done before. Hopefully his concussion problems will let us see his progress to next season as well.

I only wished we could have seen a younger Mario in this no clutch/Grab league. He would have torn it up even more than he did in his comeback year.