If Mario doesn't miss 3 years is Ovechkin chasing him?

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

So last night I ended uon hockeyDB and I noticed 2 things

#1 holy shit Ovechkin will be 39 next month.

And #2 there are 3 guys that I can't help but wonder if they don't miss 3 years is He chasing them, and would the record even be in reach?.

The first one is Mario Lemieux
.

He finished with 690 goals in 915 games he got to play maybe 60% of his career, then cancer sidelined him for 3 years.

I think there is an argument to be made that cancer robbed him of the all time goals record.

Without cancer he finishes with at least 1500 and as many as 1700 games played in my opinion, and if he does that I'm not sure Ovechkin isn't chasing Mario.

And I'm not sure there is a chase because if Mario doesn't miss 3 years that record could be out of reach.

Click to read more...

 

[DitchMarner]

Possibly, but Ovechkin lost the 2004-2005 season, almost half the 2013 season and parts of the 2020 and 2021 seasons because of Lockouts and COVID.

 

[banks]

So last night I ended uon hockeyDB and I noticed 2 things

#1 holy shit Ovechkin will be 39 next month.

And #2 there are 3 guys that I can't help but wonder if they don't miss 3 years is He chasing them, and would the record even be in reach?.

The first one is Mario Lemieux
.

He finished with 690 goals in 915 games he got to play maybe 60% of his career, then cancer sidelined him for 3 years.

I think there is an argument to be made that cancer robbed him of the all time goals record.

Without cancer he finishes with at least 1500 and as many as 1700 games played in my opinion, and if he does that I'm not sure Ovechkin isn't chasing Mario.

And I'm not sure there is a chase because if Mario doesn't miss 3 years that record could be out of reach.

I think you're right about Lemieux. But this is a bit of a rabbit hole. You can "if" your way into a million different things. If Gretzky's first season had been in the NHL instead of the WHA (he got over 40), then is the number unbeatable?

This kind of thinking never ends.

But a case can absolutely be made that Mario had the potential to be the all-time goal scoring leader.

 

[dgibb10]

So last night I ended uon hockeyDB and I noticed 2 things

#1 holy shit Ovechkin will be 39 next month.

And #2 there are 3 guys that I can't help but wonder if they don't miss 3 years is He chasing them, and would the record even be in reach?.

The first one is Mario Lemieux
.

He finished with 690 goals in 915 games he got to play maybe 60% of his career, then cancer sidelined him for 3 years.

I think there is an argument to be made that cancer robbed him of the all time goals record.

Without cancer he finishes with at least 1500 and as many as 1700 games played in my opinion, and if he does that I'm not sure Ovechkin isn't chasing Mario.

And I'm not sure there is a chase because if Mario doesn't miss 3 years that record could be out of reach.

Lemieux was about 100 goals behind gretzky at age 27 for both of them.

Why is there always this assumption that Lemieuix would have maintained peak performance into his 30s when basically nobody has, even Gretzky.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Same could be said about Bossy, tbh.

Lemieux, Bossy and Ovechkin are the 3 best pure goal scorers of all time imo.

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

Possibly, but Ovechkin lost the 2004-2005 season, almost half the 2013 season and parts of the 2020 and 2021 seasons because of Lockouts and COVID.

I think there’s a good chance Ovechkin is closing in on 1000 career goals without that missed time

 

[Midnight Judges]

No, and frankly this thread is misguided for multiple reasons. Chief among them:

1) If Ovechkin played in Lemieux's era (which is among the highest scoring), Ovechkin would likely have 1100 goals right now. And if Lemieux played in Ovechkin's era (which has generally been among the lower scoring eras), he'd have fewer than 600 goals. Lemieux would be competing with Patrick Marleau, not Ovie.

2) Lemieux is a quitter. Ovechkin is not. Imagining Lemieux to somehow deserve credit here is absurd. Ovie showed up. Mario didn't.

 

[frontsfan67]

2) Lemieux is a quitter. Ovechkin is not. Imagining Lemieux to somehow deserve credit here is absurd. Ovie showed up. Mario didn't.

Lemieux is a quitter? Are you insane? After all the injuries and cancer he could’ve quit 10 years earlier than he did and still been a rich man. He even came back to Pittsburgh when they were having financial troubles- before they got Crosby and Lemieux returned they were not in a good place at all if I can recall.

What you said is quite literally the furthest thing from the truth

 

[surixon]

Yes I imagine he'd be chasing him but he wouldn't be out of reach.

If he was healthy those 3 years he'd likely have an additional 150 to 180 goals. That puts him in the 840 to 870 goal range. But the year after he returned his goal scoring took a noticeable dip and he paced in around 20 goals a year to the end of his career. Even if healthy he likely only gets to 900 give or take a few.

 

[tfong]

Yeah he should've walked it off. Soft.

 

[Video Nasty]

No, and if we play the what if game for one player, we have to play it for all, even Gretzky, who makes this chase irrelevant with a few what ifs of his own.

 

[Regal]

Lemieux was about 100 goals behind gretzky at age 27 for both of them.

Why is there always this assumption that Lemieuix would have maintained peak performance into his 30s when basically nobody has, even Gretzky.

I don’t think it’s about maintaining peak performance as much as aging better as a goal scorer. Gretzky’s goal scoring nosedived in his late 20s into his 30s. After 28 he was never top 10 in goals or goals per game again. Lemieux was still one of the best of all time at 30 with 69 in 70, and then still a Richard threat at 31 with 50 goals, just a couple back of the leader. Then in his comeback at age 35 he scored 35 in 43. Even at 37 he had 28 in 67, which is more goals than Gretzky scored in any season after age 33. Obviously we can’t know what would have happened if he played more games, but based on what we saw, it’s pretty likely Lemieux is a better goal scorer than Gretzky in the second half of his career. Even as it stands, after age 29, Gretzky only outscored Lemieux by 21 goals despite playing 324 more games.

Of course, there’s what ifs for Gretzky as well, but if we’re just giving better health for Lemieux, there’s a decent chance he’d be the all time goal leader currently.

 

[frontsfan67]

No, and if we play the what if game for one player, we have to play it for all, even Gretzky, who makes this chase irrelevant with a few what ifs of his own.

Gretzky played over 1400 games and never had any major injuries that affected his career like Lemieux, bossy, orr just to name a few.

If we are playing what ifs- what if he had health problems too? What if he didn’t have people protecting him everywhere he went? Do you think he would be anywhere near as successful?

 

[frontsfan67]

I don’t think it’s about maintaining peak performance as much as aging better as a goal scorer. Gretzky’s goal scoring nosedived in his late 20s into his 30s. After 28 he was never top 10 in goals or goals per game again. Lemieux was still one of the best of all time at 30 with 69 in 70, and then still a Richard threat at 31 with 50 goals, just a couple back of the leader. Then in his comeback at age 35 he scored 35 in 43. Even at 37 he had 28 in 67, which is more goals than Gretzky scored in any season after age 33. Obviously we can’t know what would have happened if he played more games, but based on what we saw, it’s pretty likely Lemieux is a better goal scorer than Gretzky in the second half of his career. Even as it stands, after age 29, Gretzky only outscored Lemieux by 21 goals despite playing 324 more games.

Of course, there’s what ifs for Gretzky as well, but if we’re just giving better health for Lemieux, there’s a decent chance he’d be the all time goal leader currently.

100%. Gretzky is the way better assist man though obviously but put Bossy, Lemieux, Ovechkin in the same era surrounded by the same players I think they all put up more goals than Gretzky.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

The Mario Lemieux hat trick was a goal, an assist, and chemotherapy treatment on the same day.

He missed a LOT more than just three years, even when he was actively playing.

 

[frontsfan67]

In basketball is lebron james the goat then over Michael Jordan since he hasn’t had a season below 25 ppg since his rookie season?

 

[LivingRentFree]

Lemieux was the greatest scorer of all time, and the greatest overall player of all time. Yes he would have been ahead of Ovi. If Lemieux plays a full healthy career, Ovi retires 2 years ago when he should have because he knows there would be no chance of catching Mario.

 

[geebster]

Lemieux was about 100 goals behind gretzky at age 27 for both of them.

Why is there always this assumption that Lemieuix would have maintained peak performance into his 30s when basically nobody has, even Gretzky.

Lemieux had played 120 fewer games at that point as well. Their goals per game were near identical at that point. (0.83 vs 0.82). Because he continued to be a great goalscorer even with his physical limitations and time lost due to cancer, while Gretzky was not a goalscorer in the second half of his career (never topped 40 goals after 30, averaged 25 goals a season for his last 8 seasons), its reasonable to assume that without the setbacks that Lemieux passes him quite easily had he played anywhere near as many games.

 

[Midnight Judges]

No, and if we play the what if game for one player, we have to play it for all, even Gretzky, who makes this chase irrelevant with a few what ifs of his own.

No he doesn't. Gretzky had virtually every conceivable advantage. If Ovie played from 1979-1999, it would not be close between him and Gretzky.

NHL & WHA Career Leaders and Records for Adjusted Goals | Hockey-Reference.com

1. Alex Ovechkin (954), 2. Gordie Howe (925), 3. Jaromír Jágr (841), 4. Wayne Gretzky (758), 5. Teemu Selänne (741), 6. Brett Hull (738), 7. Jarome Iginla (706), 8. Brendan Shanahan (672), 9. Phil Esposito (671), 10. Sidney Crosby (655)

www.hockey-reference.com

 

[frontsfan67]

The Mario Lemieux hat trick was a goal, an assist, and chemotherapy treatment on the same day.

He missed a LOT more than just three years, even when he was actively playing.

Exactly. I’ve calculated it before and he played around 60 percent of his actual games he could’ve played due to injuries, cancer. Without a doubt one of the biggest what if in history along with Orr and bossy

 

[Midnight Judges]

In basketball is lebron james the goat then over Michael Jordan since he hasn’t had a season below 25 ppg since his rookie season?

Yes.

 

[Video Nasty]

Gretzky played over 1400 games and never had any major injuries that affected his career like Lemieux, bossy, orr just to name a few.

If we are playing what ifs- what if he had health problems too? What if he didn’t have people protecting him everywhere he went? Do you think he would be anywhere near as successful?

You’re flat out wrong. Gretzky’s own back issues are well-documented and the Suter hit transformed him overnight from a player still capable of scoring 40-45 goals and 2 PPG at age 30 to a player who generally struggled to get to 30 goals and 120-130 points.

We don’t talk about Gretzky’s injuries much, because he did everything first, better, and faster, so there’s not much allure. What does it add really, if we imagine playing past 30 for a few more years at a 40 goal/150 point clip? It gets him to 1000 goals perhaps and 3000 points, certainly attractive totals, but not something his case needs to rely on. How quickly we forget though this nugget from 1993:

“About Wayne's back: The actual ailment is a herniated thoracic disk that radiates pain to his chest. The injury is most likely the result of his getting hit from behind for 14 seasons, a violence that has seemed to escalate against Gretzky in recent years. And though he had complained of rib pain after last season's playoffs, the cause went undiagnosed. Not until preseason camp, to which he reported in peak condition, did Gretzky experience the excruciating chest pain. Actually, he had no pain through three days of skating. Then he returned home to be with his wife, Janet Jones, as the birth of their third child neared. At home, in the middle of the night, the pain struck, forcing him to the hospital for a week. It was an alarming event all around. "We visited him in the hospital," recalls Granato, "and everyone became as scared as he was."

Doctors knew of no other athlete who had recovered from a herniated thoracic disk to play again. "We have no timetable for this program and will not speculate on a date for his return," said Dr. Robert Watkins, an orthopedic consultant.“

What is also well-documented, for those who care to look and are okay with demystifying the legend a little, is that Mario couldn’t be bothered to keep up with his conditioning. He’s an example of an extreme talent who could get away with relying on that talent a vast majority of the time, until he couldn’t. If he simply stretched more, he likely wouldn’t have half of the back problems he did, but then we couldn’t romanticize not being able to tie his own skates.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Lemieux was the greatest scorer of all time, and the greatest overall player of all time. Yes he would have been ahead of Ovi. If Lemieux plays a full healthy career, Ovi retires 2 years ago when he should have because he knows there would be no chance of catching Mario.

The data shows otherwise: Ovechkin sustained a higher adjusted GPG through far more games in relation to Mario Lemieux.

 

[LivingRentFree]

The data shows otherwise: Ovechkin sustained a higher adjusted GPG through far more games in relation to Mario Lemieux.

View attachment 899842

I’ll take .75 over .60 ( and DROPPING) Goals per game, any day of the week.

Ovi can have the goal record for a couple years until Matthews takes care of it. And when he does, Lemieux will still have been better.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Same could be said about Bossy, tbh.

Lemieux, Bossy and Ovechkin are the 3 best pure goal scorers of all time imo.

Bossy is one of the 3 I was talking about, he's the next poll.

There will be 3