If Hockey had a real World Cup, would that be the best way to grow the game?
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aquaregia
Registered User
As a (somewhat fairweather) fan of Rugby Union, I can say that there are plenty of conversations around growing the game that resemble this one. Plenty of old stick-in-the-muds who only care about the same traditional powers (home nations, France, SA, NZ, AU) playing again and again, and those who want to see competitions like the World Cup and Six Nations expanded.
The Six Nations being what I'd say is the big hot issue of the moment - the competition is the de facto European Championship of the sport, but since 2000 (when Italy joined, expanding what was then the Five Nations) has been closed to new entrants. Georgia are the up and coming power in European rugby, having beaten for the first time Wales and Italy last year (both 6N countries), ans the debate is whether or not they should [rightly imo] be included in the tournament, or at least have the opportunity to be promoted from the Rugby Europe Championship (i.e. the continent's second-tier competition).
Difference with ice hockey is obviously you don't have the problem of national teams not having their best players available all the time - the international game still very much has primacy, but point being there very much are efforts within the sport to expand it beyond its 'traditional boundaries' ongoing, and probably always will be.
Side note to cg98 - Rugby Union is a winter sport, and although you don't have the same hurdles in terms of climate and equipment for people to overcome as you do in hockey, at least in England the sport has a pretty strong upper-class public school reputation, and quality development and coaching isn't too readily available for kids of a more working-class background, and the biases toward fee-paying school brought-up players is an issue right up to the professional level of the game.
Hope you can excuse the tangent, but thought it useful to look at some of the similarities between the sports that a casual observer might miss.
I will occasionally watch a game or part of a game if I am flipping through channels. Now, in these discussions, is it constant whining about a professional league not knowing what they are doing? Is it a constant conversation about how they should have a big tourney in China because then the Chinese people will fall in love with the game and that will get you an instant 1 billion new fans and 20 years from now there may be a great player to come out of China? Do they come up with crazy scenarios to expand the world cup to have countries playing that would get their butts kicked, because apparently watching your national team get destroyed by one of the big countries will help grow the game in the less talented countries. I guess for Rugby the ad can be for a country that doesn't have much of a rugby presence, "Hey kids, come play rugby someday you may be able to play Wales, New Zealand, or South Africa and lose 350-0."
I have no idea about the structure of rugby between pro leagues and national teams. Part of the problem for international hockey is in the US, it has lost a lot of steam and passion since the fall of communism. Had a Wings fan tell me how they couldn't bring themselves to root against Federov, Shannahan, and Yzerman in the Olympics/World Cup. Same with a few Devils fans when it came to Brodeur, Niedermayer, and Elias. Same for Rangers fans when it came to Messier and Lundqvist. I could go on and on here, but I think you get the point. No idea if that same dynamic exists in European soccer or a sport like Rugby where it's bread and butter is obviously outside North America. And yes, have spoken to NHL fans who say, when the international unis go on, they are USA (or Canada) all the way and as a Rangers fan if it means Lundqvist gets lit up the Americans, then so be it.
I know some people whose parents immigrated from India. They grew up waching and playing cricket. A few miles from where I am sitting right now is the longest continually used cricket field in North America. These guys as kids were allowed to miss school a few times to watch a big cricket match and as adults have taken days off from work to do the same. One even invited me over to watch a game, probably a World Cup final (or whatever the equivalent was called). I couldn't attend, but would have just to hang out. But, they have once tried to tell me how or why I NEED to become a fans. Have never heard them whine about the game not being popular in the US. The fact that most of the US does not care about Cricket doesn't phase them at all. They love it, they watch it, they follow it, they play it.
The point is, I do not understand this obsession so many hockey fans have with "growing the game". It is borderline cult-like.
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Yes, but do fans whine about the NLL (i know, much different than the NHL) not knowing how to grow the game? Growing up on Long Island, had MANY friends who played Lacrosse, several went D1. Are lacrosse fans cult-like in their passion for "growing the game"?
Yes and no.
Hockey's popularity in the US has hit that sweet spot whereby it's prime for growth.
Obviously the game is behind the Big 3, yet every once in a while we have cities going 'Cup Crazy' where our game is the #1 focus of attention. This may be common in Canada, but not here. As a fan this is the best feeling in the world. Who wouldn't want this 24/7?
Imo, this is what sets Hockey apart from niche games like Cricket, Volleyball, Water Polo, Rugby, Lacrosse in terms of growing the game. We can taste being #1 or 2.
Are people content with always being #4, on par with NASCAR or whatever? I don't think so.
Any global growth will always make its way back to the NHL.
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jj cale
Registered User
Agreed on winning. However, they only give out 1 Stanley Cup each year. I would not be the least bit shocked if the Caps were getting a bit more attention than the Redskins in the DC area simply because they were good, won a Cup while the Skins were awful. Long-term, I don't think we will ever see the NHL surpass the other big 3 in most markets. Then again, there was a time when the 4 most popular sports in this country were baseball, college football, boxing, and horse racing. I don't compare the NHL with NASCAR for the simple reason that when NASCAR has an event, all of the best drivers are at that event. It is a tour, it is not a league.
As far as global growth, I don't understand why anyone cares if hockey is popular in China, Brazil, Ireland, or Uzbekistan, unless you like hockey and live in those countries.
aquaregia
Registered User
l0l
Sorry but that line of thinking is just dead wrong, at least when it comes to rugby. World Cup exposure (including 'butt-kickings' along the way) has been crucial to the development of the sport in Argentina, Italy, Japan, Georgia, and possibly now also Portugal.
Portugal played New Zealand in 2007 in their World Cup debut and were famously battered 108-13 by New Zealand in one of their pool games. Portugal recently secured qualification again to this years' World Cup, and when some of the players were asked what inspired them to pick up the sport, it was watching that very World Cup in 2007 that got them interested. Even though they were shipping double-digit numbers of tries, seeing your country represented on the highest stage still got people hooked on a sport that's only marginal in their country, and now the national team's a lot stronger for it, with many players playing professionally in France as opposed to what was an almost entirely amateur set-up 16 years ago.
If say France or GB or South Korea or whoever were playing in a best-on-best World Cup, and it was on free-to-air national TV in those countries, I could almost guarantee you that you'd create significant new interest in the sport there, even if they were taking 10, 11, 12-0 drummings to the likes of Canada and Finland.
I didn't realize devotion to the Ottawa Senators determined how popular hockey is...lol.
There's no question a real best-on-best World Cup would help grow the game. Basketball, baseball, association football, cricket, rugby league, volleyball, swimming, etc. all have best-on-best competition and are light years more popular than ice hockey. There's a reason for that.
jj cale
Registered User
Sports like baseball, basketball, cricket etc aren't more popular then hockey because they have international competitions, heck, hockey has been doing best on best competitions far longer then baseball and the king of all sports in the U.S (football) doesn't even have any international competitions,I'm not saying hockey can't grow with more international competitions exposure but using the lack of them currently as a reason why those sports are more popular then hockey isn't true, It's for a host other other reasons
Czechboy
Náš f*cken barák!
- Apr 15, 2018
- 30,063
- 27,651
I was given a GREAT analogy the other day.. and it was on HF but I forget the poster.. so, if I get it wrong, let me know
But here is how it went...
The NBA, NFL and MLB are selling country, rock and hip hop.
The NHL is selling Polka.
I thought it was brilliant
But here is how it went...
The NBA, NFL and MLB are selling country, rock and hip hop.
The NHL is selling Polka.
I thought it was brilliant
SwedishFire
Registered User
- Mar 3, 2011
- 5,508
- 1,939
It has been said many times, but the drop of from austria to China and netherlands is liek the drop of from austria to USA.. like, big. Really bad.
The gaps are big
Top 8 nations
Can to Czech
The middle tier
Slovak, Germany to Denmark
The under tier
Austria, Ukraine, UK, Slovenia, italy and such
Div B top tier
Is below slovenia and such, like netherlands and China etc.
And then the next drop of, to spain, australia is bad. Austria - australia gets a result of 9-1.
If you then go under that....
Israel, iceland, arent even good anywhere. Luxemburg is like all star esamble of rhe local beerleague.
Italy is totally gone. The Geatano Orlando is past now.
Nations like France, Poland, UK, Hungry arent A level, they are B level nations now.
When they can have a competetive tourney with 16 cpuntries, all are good. If uou look like 80 years back from now at fotball wC, they was where hockey are now, like 8 countries competing for top 3, and the rest fill out. Cant even ice 16 nations to do a fair tourney.
If I try, it would be 16 countries given their spots. I take Russia with, because it would just suck if not
Group A
USA
Slovak
Norway
Kazhakstan
Group B
Canada
Czech
Austria
Hungary
Group C
Sweden
Finland
Denmark
Slovenia
Group D
Russia
Swiss
Germany
Belarus/France
Looks fun?
Belarus, Slovenia, Hungary, Kazahkstan, Austria stands no chance at all.
Can, swe, fin, usa, russia, czech, slovakia, swiss is mainstays. The rest need to raise their level.
Germany and Denmark is almost there, but need better depth to compete.
The rest is to bad straight through. No depth. Thats 6 nations not good enough
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Italy is upping their naturalization game for the Olympics. No superstars obviously, but solid players from NA major junior hockey.
SwedishFire
Registered User
- Mar 3, 2011
- 5,508
- 1,939
Ive heard that both France and Italy wanted to cut down the Canadians with a Italian or french passport, and set for homegrown talent, starting their build of a program in house talent. Obviosly it didnt go that well...
crobro
Registered User
- Aug 8, 2008
- 3,873
- 725
The biggest upswing in homegrown talent right now is Croatia their under 20 and under 18 teams are coming sting their competition
Why
The Croatian program is recognizing youth talent and sending them off to Sweden,Slovenia and Austria to develop and it’s working
Bruno Idzan is a real talent at 16 as are a few other players in the Swedish junior system
Seems like since medvescak folded the program is improving by leaps and bounds finally
Why
The Croatian program is recognizing youth talent and sending them off to Sweden,Slovenia and Austria to develop and it’s working
Bruno Idzan is a real talent at 16 as are a few other players in the Swedish junior system
Seems like since medvescak folded the program is improving by leaps and bounds finally
Needs more Under 25, Team Europe, Team AHL/ECHL and other stupid gimmick filler teams.- Gary Bettman probably.
Joey Banana
Registered User
- Mar 9, 2012
- 445
- 280
Crosby2010
Registered User
- Mar 4, 2023
- 1,773
- 1,776
What they did in 2016 wasn't a bad idea date-wise. The older World Cups were late August to mid-September. No one wants to watch hockey then. We still did sure, but we're die hards. You can't have a hockey tournament over Labour Day weekend and during the 1st week of the NFL season. It is best to sneak it in there late September. They had that crazy format in 2016 which was bad, so all they have to do is have a normal format and play the tournament up until early October. This isn't the Summit Series in 1972 where it was a new thing.
Or you can stop for two weeks in the middle of the season and have a tournament. I don't like that idea unless it is the Olympics, but the owners hate the Olympics. I think the mid-September to early October thing works well. It is after the summer, it is before the baseball playoffs and it is before the NBA season starts.
Or you can stop for two weeks in the middle of the season and have a tournament. I don't like that idea unless it is the Olympics, but the owners hate the Olympics. I think the mid-September to early October thing works well. It is after the summer, it is before the baseball playoffs and it is before the NBA season starts.
As we all know that Norway is a winter sport-superpower but somehow hockey has never caught on in that country.
The same could be said about another winter sport country. Namely Austria.
I wonder if Norway took hockey as seriously as skiing, biathlon, ski jumping etc would they be an absolute hockey superpower.
The same could be said about another winter sport country. Namely Austria.
I wonder if Norway took hockey as seriously as skiing, biathlon, ski jumping etc would they be an absolute hockey superpower.
The NHL needs to get its head out of its a$$ and partner with the IIHF on a legitimate World Cup.
The IIHF needs to fork up money for injury insurance then.
The NHL is a business, letting your players play for other leagues is dangerous.
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