Gretzky would have trouble outscoring Crosby in this era for two reasons....
1) he's a pipsqueak. Yes, no clutching & grabbing now, but Gretzky was never a physical specimen either.
2) Also, he wouldn't have the 80s Oilers as a support cast due to the cap. Lemieux would destroy the rest of the league now. Hell, he was practically doing it when he came back after the first retirement & his prime was over. A Lemieux in his prime would just lay waste to everyone. And yes, his shootout percentage would be over 90%.....
1. Gretzky played against bigger and stronger players his whole life. When he was 6 he played in a league of 10-12 year olds. When he was 10, he played against 14-16 yr olds. When he was 14 he played against adults. When he was 17, he signed in the WHA playing professional hockey. He was always smaller than everyone else, but he was still better. His physical size didn't hurt him in an era of clutching and grabbing and hooking and holding, why would it hurt him now, when the rules are designed specifically for guys like him?
2. Even with that 80's cast, Gretzky was outscoring his teammates by a mile. His 92 goal, 212 point season Gretzky had over double anyone else on his team. Here were their scoring leader:
Gretzky 92 G, 120 A, 212 pts. +/- of +81
Anderson 38G, 67 A, 105 pts. +/- of + 46
Coffey 29 G, 60 A, 89 pts. +/- of +35
Messier 50 G, 38 A, 88 pts. +/- of +21
Kurri 32 G, 54 A, 86 pts. +/- of +38
Those were their top 5 scorers, in order. So only 1 of them even broke 100 points, the others didn't even break 90 points. Gretzky had 92 goals, and 120 assists. Each of those guys are in the HHoF, yet Gretzky scored more goals than any of them had points, except Anderson, and had more assists than Anderson had points even. The fact that his team was full of HoF players and he was outscoring even them by that much is even more impressive than what Lemieux did with a bunch of bums, IMO. Any great player on a team can make those around them better. I've never seen a player who outscored a team of HOF players by over double their production.
Still think Lemieux would be the better of the two, if they both joined the league as 18 year olds today.
Mario Lemieux would have scored 120 points this season as a rookie I bet. He joined the league when there were a lot A LOT of 100+ point scorers... how many are around today?
Gretzky would be a 170-180 pt guy on his best seasons, maybe crack 190.
But Lemieux would be the only one with the chance to crack 200 in the NHL right now. He's just built for the game much better (sans health problems) Gretzky would definitely have been motivated to put on some muscle. He's still taller than crosby, if even by a hair!
who knows, Maybe Wayne could still crack 200 today, but I think Lemieux would be better able to crack 200, and especially do it again. He's the only other guy to come close... and 199 is just insane.
I also don't think Wayne would have a sure shot at most goals in one season, Mario scored 85, Brett Hull scored 86... If Mario was able to do 85 today, Wayne doing 92, just flat out seems improbable, and way too fluky.
Lemieux didn't even score 120 points as a rookie back in the high-scoring 80's, he only had 107 points. He also didn't ever crack 200 in his entire career, so I don't see how he'd "be better able to crack 200, and especially do it again" when he never did it the first time, when scoring was much easier. I agree that Wayne wouldn't be a sure-shot for most goals in a season, but despite Lemieux's goal scoring expertise, he was behind Wayne in goals at every stage of their careers. Wayne reached 300 in less game, 400 in less games, 500, 600, and 700 all in less games. Lemieux did close the gap considerably as time went on, but that was mostly because Gretzky's goal scoring fell off with his back injury and arthritic shoulder.
I'm not saying Gretzky would for sure outscore Lemieux, but let's face it - he has the most with 92, and then the 2nd most with 87, in a season where he missed 6 games (he was on pace for 94). Lemieux isn't even 3rd- Brett Hull had 86, leaving Lemieux in 4th with 85.
And for the record, neither Lemieux of Gretzky would crack 200 in today's NHL. But I feel pretty confident that Gretzky would be the better and more durable player today, just like he was his entire career.
Wayne Gretzky was a great player that's for sure, buts his stats were completely over blown by playing in the Western Conference against teams that played little to no defense. Having a second line as good as the first in Edmonchuk prevented teams from keying on Gretz...The NHL as a whole was a very old league and with that comes old legs...In todays NHL 'tenders wear enough equipment to have covered two in the 1980's and early '90's... If Gretzky was a rookie in todays NHL he'd have 15 goals no more no less...His skills would transcend but by his third or fourth season he would have been concussed...because some steroid puke would have decked him...On the anniversary of his 50 B-day happy B-day Wayne, your were good but not the best...
This makes no sense. For one, its been proven on this board time and again that Gretzky's scoring levels were almost identical regardless of which conferance his opponants were in. Considering he has numerous records for Cup finals series (including most points in a cup finals and most assists in a cup finals) its not like other teams were able to stop him really, regardless of what conference they were from.
And did you even watch the Oilers? Teams keyed in on Gretzky constantly. No one sent their best checkers against Messier or Anderson, it was Gretzky's line everyone was always worried about. If anything, this helped Messier and Anderson get the production they did, because teams were too busy trying (and failing) to stop Gretzky from lighting them up for 200+ points a year. And 15 goals as a rookie, no more no less? How does the only player to ever score 90+ goals in a season suddenly start producing at a lower rate than guys like Taylor Hall or Eberle, both of whom will pass 15 goals this season.
How do you know how long he would go before being concussed? That's just a stupid statement. Gretzky was the best player at avoiding contact that I've ever seen in my life. He also avoided high-risk areas like the boards and corners for the most part. As I mentioned earlier, since he used to play against people litterally twice his size as a child and as a youth, I highly doubt players who have on average 20 lbs on him were going to be any more trouble today than they were then. Seriously, give your head a shake.
how does that even make sense? Lemieux had a higher PPG than Gretzky, and played through how many injuries? Plus he's 6'4 235, while Wayne is 6' and would have been lucky to bulk up to 200lbs. he might have had the better vision, but I think Mario would have dominated todays NHL no differently then when he started playing... Gretzky would have dominated in a different fashion than he did in the 80's.
Gretzky was on the stacked oilers and had multiple body guards. I'm not saying Gretzky wouldn't win multiple Art Rosses, but if him and Mario joined the league as 18 year olds at the same time, Mario would win more scoring titles... if they both had healthy careers, and both were both on comparable teams in terms of offence. If Mario had Jagr and Francis in the 1988 season... smashing 200 would have happened, and he might have beat 215.
Lemieux was definitely better than Gretzky when healthy. Gretzky had more assists, but I think he also had better teammates in the 80's than Mario did.
Mario's 1992/1993 is really comparable to anything Gretzky did. 160 points in 60 games is insane... if he played a full 84 games, I see no reason why he would not have smashed 215 out of the record books.
69 goals in 60 games... 91 assists... Gretzky won the Art Ross the next season with 38 goals, and 130 points in 81 games. Mario's monster seasons 87/88, 88/89, 92/93 95/96, all compare with Gretzky's best seasons. and only in 95/96 did he have a supporting line up, that can be compared to Wayne's Oilers.
So basically, assuming that modern health tech, could have helped Lemieux play more than 1,200 had he been born 20 years later... I think he would have dominated the league, and been a firm #1 player, with Gretzky at # 2.
bring Bobby Orr into the discussion, and who the **** knows
Lemieux DID NOT have a higher PPG. He has 1.88 PPG, Gretzky has 1.92 despite playing over 500 more games. I agree that Lemieux had some seasons where he looked like he could threaten Gretzky's records, but really he never even came close. Even his 199 point season is 16 back of Gretzky's record, and Gretzky had 3 other seasons that beat Lemieux's best as well. When Gretzky is 1, 2, 3, and 4 in finishes, and then Lemieux is 5, then Gretzky 6th again, it should be obvious he dominated Lemieux in points finishes. Lemieux had a few seasons where he looked on pace to threaten, but he could never stay healthy enough to make a run at any thing.
You do have a good point about surrounding cast - Gretzky clearly had the advantage there. However, I already addressed that in part earlier in this post. And that being said, while Gretzky certainly had better teammates overall, he also never played with a 5 time Art trophy winner like Jagr either. I feel pretty confident in saying that Jagr was a more talented offensive player than anyone Gretzky ever played with on a regular line (mostly Kurri, Tikannen, Lumley, Semenko, etc. Gretzky had his share of superstars, but he also spent a lot of time with only 1 winger and some random idiot who may or may not have known how to skate).
Anyways, sorry for the length of this post, just thought I'd address some of the stuff I was seeing in this thread.